Free Will

[TheCosmicGospel]

This can be made into a complex problem. But it can also be answered very simply.

The simple answer comes from the small Catechism.

I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Spirit has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the one true faith.

Man cannot resist God. And yet not all men are saved. Why aren't all men saved? Calvinists answer is God is responsible. Armininists answer is Man is responsible. Lutherans answer this is a mystery and hidden from us. We are to focus on the Gospel and do the work of the missionary. This is serving God and not solving God. Who said we ever could? We have our place. Why should we grasp for more?

Men can resist the means of grace. People can open their Bibles, read, study, attend church. Or choose not to. Reading your Bible or not reading your Bible both will have profound effects on faith. The WORD is a key distinctive to Lutheran understanding. It is not WORD filtered by human logic (Reformed). It is not WORD under tradition (Catholic). It is not WORD plus tongues (charismatic).

Peace and joy
Cosmic

 

[jcj3803]

Ahhh. Thank you all for your responses! I understand now. Very well written, especially Cosmic.

I should have known to go to the original source(s) but I managed to misplace my Small Cat.

 

[LutherNut]

Man cannot resist God. And yet not all men are saved. Why aren't all men saved? Calvinists answer is God is responsible. Armininists answer is Man is responsible. Lutherans answer this is a mystery and hidden from us.

Actually, Lutherans agree with the Arminianists on this one.

 

[Confess]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Confess again."

Great posts as usual!

HA! I couldn't figure that out for the LIFE OF ME!!!

But now I get it. I am soooo slow!!! LOL!!!

Thanks LilLamb!

 

[Confess]

This can be made into a complex problem. But it can also be answered very simply.

The simple answer comes from the small Catechism.

I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Spirit has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the one true faith.

Man cannot resist God. And yet not all men are saved. Why aren't all men saved? Calvinists answer is God is responsible. Armininists answer is Man is responsible. Lutherans answer this is a mystery and hidden from us. We are to focus on the Gospel and do the work of the missionary. This is serving God and not solving God. Who said we ever could? We have our place. Why should we grasp for more?

Men can resist the means of grace. People can open their Bibles, read, study, attend church. Or choose not to. Reading your Bible or not reading your Bible both will have profound effects on faith. The WORD is a key distinctive to Lutheran understanding. It is not WORD filtered by human logic (Reformed). It is not WORD under tradition (Catholic). It is not WORD plus tongues (charismatic).

Peace and joy
Cosmic

Perfect times 10!

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

Actually, Lutherans agree with the Arminianists on this one.

No we don't! Since when???????

Arminianists hold that man is responsible for his salvation. He accepts and therefore chooses. Lutherans believe and teach that man can only reject. He cannot accept. Thus, for the true Lutheran theologian, the question in question cannot be answered.

Thus sayeth J. T. Mueller, and it is good enough for me.

You may need to take a pill and lay down for a while. Then pick up J.T. and do some reading.

Peace and Joy,
Cosmic

We are here to serve God, not solve God - Cosmic

 

[DaRev]

No we don't! Since when???????

Arminianists hold that man is responsible for his salvation. He accepts and therefore chooses. Lutherans believe and teach that man can only reject. He cannot accept. Thus, for the true Lutheran theologian, the question in question cannot be answered.

Thus sayeth J. T. Mueller, and it is good enough for me.

You may need to take a pill and lay down for a while. Then pick up J.T. and do some reading.

Peace and Joy,
Cosmic

We are here to serve God, not solve God - Cosmic

There is some confusion in your wording in the post the LN responded to. When talking about why some are not saved, you stated "Armininists answer is Man is responsible." While God alone is responsible for our salvation, Man alone is responsible for his damnation. If your statement about the Arminian position concerns our damnation, than that position is correct. If your statement is concerning our salvation, then the Arminianist position is incorrect.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

Lutherans believe and teach that man can only reject. He cannot accept. Thus, for the true Lutheran theologian, the question in question cannot be answered.

I think I already said that above. The point is that our Lutheran theology does not answer the question of "why some are saved and not others." Calvinists and Arminiansts think they can from their respective positions. Why this makes Lutherans more fundamentally allied with one over the other is beyond me. 50% is a flunking grade in math or science or anything.

Peace and Joy,
Cosmic

 

[LilLamb219]

Cosmic, what LutherNut was saying when he said that Lutherans agree with Arminians is the part where you said that Arminians believe that man is responsible for not being saved...and Lutherans agree with that...damnation is man's fault.

Reading back through the thread...maybe it wasn't Cosmic who first said it about the Arminians...ahh, the confusion

 

[DaRev]

"why some are saved and not others."

The Crux Theologorum

Lutherans also affirm, with Scripture, that those who are damned are damned not by God's "choice" but on account of their own human sin and rebellion and unbelief. From a human perspective, there is no "rational" or "logical" way to put these two truths together. Lutherans believe and confess them not because they are "rational" and "logical," but because this is what we find taught in Scripture.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

The Arminianst position is that man is responsible. I did not qualify whether this was to man's salvation or damnation. If it was only one and not the other, it would not be a true Arminianst position. LutherNut could have equally ascribed therefore that Lutherans agree with Calvin since Calvinism does prescribe that God is responsible for man's salvation.

But both Calvinism and Arminianism are 100% wrong. For both positions make the cross of no effect. The cross does not save under Calvin's system because you either are the elect or you aren't. The other underestimates man's condition as fallen and spiritually dead. The cross was overkill if all we needed was a jump start and a push.

So if I was not clear enough before as I should have, maybe now I have cleared it up a bit. Thanks for your patience.

Peace and Joy,
Cosmic

 

[filosofer]

The point is that our Lutheran theology does not answer the question of "why some are saved and not others."

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
Technically not true. Calvinists and Arminians try to answer the question with one answer, and they want to probe "behind the scenes", so to speak. But there are two questions, each with its own answer.

Why are some saved? God's grace

Why are others not saved? the person's sin

We are not left to the whim of God's justice (election in Calvinism), nor are we left to our flimsy desires (Arminianism). We trust totally in God's mercy in Jesus Christ.

Remember that election is always "in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3-6, etc.); we can not speak about election apart from being "in Christ". Thus election is a comforting doctrine.

Do you want to know whether you are saved? You can:

1. Look to God's inscrutable will (Calvinism)

2. Look to my inner heart (Arminianism)

3. Look to the cross of Christ where God's mercy is shown (Biblical)

Door # 3 is the (eternal) prize!

In Christ's love,
filo
[/font]

 

[Studeclunker]

The doctrine of election is one that has confused me for years. This thread has been very helpful. Thank you all. You have made a muddy picture much more clear.