Free Will

[Proeliator]

Where do conservative Lutherans stand on this. Do they believe in absolute free will like the Arminians, or limtied free will like the Calvinists?

 

[LilLamb219]

Free will to choose apart from the Holy Spirit? Nope. The will is bound to sin really. Only by the Holy Spirit can we say that Jesus is Christ.

I'm really not sure what limited free will is according to the Calvinists. It's not a "choice" that gives us salvation though if that's where you are going with this.

 

[Proeliator]

Free will to choose apart from the Holy Spirit? Nope. The will is bound to sin really. Only by the Holy Spirit can we say that Jesus is Christ.

I'm really not sure what limited free will is according to the Calvinists. It's not a "choice" that gives us salvation though if that's where you are going with this.

Yeah that was pretty well where I was going with it. Do conservative Lutherans believe in limited or universal atonement?

 

[LilLamb219]

Universal atonement in that Christ's death on the cross was for all of mankind even though not all will be saved because they might reject Him.

 

[Annova]

Universal atonement.

 

[Confess]

Free will to choose apart from the Holy Spirit? Nope. The will is bound to sin really. Only by the Holy Spirit can we say that Jesus is Christ....

Exactly!
Only those who are born holy can choose. Adam, Eve, Jesus...

Since the fall we are not born holy, we are enslaved by sin and are set free by the Grace of God through the saving works of Jesus. We naturally gravitate toward the unholy/sin.

 

[judaica]

Where do conservative Lutherans stand on this. Do they believe in absolute free will like the Arminians, or limtied free will like the Calvinists?

It might be helpful to distinguish between civic righteousness and salvic righteousness. Civic righteouness, includes things like obeying the law (ie stopping at a stop sign for instance). Salvic righteousness, is being able to move toward God.

According to Lutheranism, man has freewill prior to conversion in regards to civic righteousness. He can obey the law of the state, treat others decently, pay his taxes, go to work ect. But he cannot make the first move toward God for His salvation. Prior to conversion, man does not have freewill in that sense (ie salvic freewill). After God makes the first move, then salvic freewill is restored. So all Christians have salvic freewill.

(I'm not saying I do or do not agree with this, this is just my understanding of what Lutheranism teaches, according to her Confessions).

judaica

 

[Flipper]

We are capable of using free will to deny our salvation, or so I thought.

 

[LutherNut]

We are capable of using free will to deny our salvation, or so I thought.

But that's not "free" will. Our will is bound by sin. Only God can move us and free us from that bondage, and He has done so by way of the cross.

Adam and Eve and free will, that is the ability to either choose to obey God or to choose not to obey God. When they were tempted by Satan, they chose not to obey, and the consequence of that choice is that they and all humanity since (with one exception) no longer have the ability to choose to obey God.

Jesus is that one exception. (Of course, He needed to be conceived and born in a supernatural way, so He didn't inherit the original sin.) He had free will, the ability to choose to obey or to disobey. When He was tempted by Satan, He chose to obey.

 

[Flipper]

We don't have the free will to reject God?

 

[jcj3803]

Wait, is this a circular argument? Salvation through Christ is universal, but you can't accept Christ without the Holy Spirit. Therefore salvation is NOT Universal because there is nothing that says you will be imbued with the Holy Spirit. So if God doesn't "pick you", you are toast. That's Calvinism, isn't it?

I just started reading Luther's original works (well, in digest from), and I have to dig into this more as it's been a *long* time since I was confirmed and actually studied the Small Cat.

Y'know maybe I haven't been paying close attention to all the sermons that I've heard over the years. I can't honestly remember one that really dug into the doctrine of salvation, etc.

 

[Confess]

We don't have the free will to reject God?

We do not have a free will to reject God. Rejecting God is our nature. Original sin is the sin that you were born with, it rejects God. It is only by the grace of God that we believe.

Faith in essence is a miracle from God. When we do not believe, it is our clinging on to our sinful nature (unbelief) that keeps us from seeing and believing.

We are dead in sins. Just as a dead person does not have the free will to make himself alive, so too are we spiritually dead and cannot will ourselves to be alive in Christ.

 

[Confess]

Wait, is this a circular argument? Salvation through Christ is universal, but you can't accept Christ without the Holy Spirit. Therefore salvation is NOT Universal because there is nothing that says you will be imbued with the Holy Spirit. So if God doesn't "pick you", you are toast. That's Calvinism, isn't it?

I just started reading Luther's original works (well, in digest from), and I have to dig into this more as it's been a *long* time since I was confirmed and actually studied the Small Cat.

Y'know maybe I haven't been paying close attention to all the sermons that I've heard over the years. I can't honestly remember one that really dug into the doctrine of salvation, etc.

Salvation is for all, Jesus died for everyone. It is just that not everyone believes.

I would also recommend the Book of Concord.

Happy reading!

 

[LilLamb219]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Confess again."

Great posts as usual!

 

[jcj3803]

Salvation is for all, Jesus died for everyone. It is just that not everyone believes.

I would also recommend the Book of Concord.

Happy reading!

Maybe I'm not being clear, Confess.

If I follow this argument correctly, a person cannot of their own free will choose to believe in Christ. This belief must come through the Holy Spirit (Paraclete). But since God is the Holy Spirit, you must be chosen by God to receive faith. So if you do not believe, God has not chosen you and there is NOTHING you can do about it. Similarly, if you believe, you HAVE been chosen by God and your salvation is assured. And that is Calvinism as far as I know.

So Christ died for the entire set A,B,C. But God only sends the Holy Spirit by His choice to A and B. Therefore even though Christ died for A,B and C, C is doomed.

I'm really tryinmg to understand exactly the difference between Calvinism and Lutheranism on this point. It seems to me that the Arminians have a more logical argument.

 

[Confess]

I understand what you are saying.

God choose A,B and C period.

Those who do not have faith is not due to God, but due to the person who refuses God.

God does not choose that anyone would receive eternal death, but that all would receive eternal life. We all are equally given a chance to receive his FREE gift of salvation. It is just that some people reject that gift.

 

[Confess]

I will go in greater detail later, but right now its time to bowl!

Taking children out for bowling that is.

 

[jcj3803]

Lillamb wrote:

"Only by the Holy Spirit can we say that Jesus is Christ"

This is what I'm getting hung up on. This implies that you cannot choose Christ on your own without receiving the Holy Spirit. And God decides who to send the Holy Spirit to.

Well, I'll read more of Luther's texts and see what I can find there also. I think I'm missing a point somewhere here.

 

[ricg]

The Arminians and the Calvinists both have more logical arguments. Arminians say we have a "free will" to choose God, and that if we don't, we're damned -- ultimately, a "God makes salvation possible, but you have to save yourself (by making a decision)" position. Logical, but unscriptural: Scripture is clear that God chooses us.

Classical Calvinists say that God chooses some to save and the rest He chooses not to save. Logical, but unscriptural: Scripture is clear that He is the Savior of all.

The Lutheran position is that Jesus is the Savior of all (objective justification), that God has elected some to come to faith (subjective justification). Those without faith reject Him; He does not reject them.

It is not an intellectually satisfying position, but it is what God has revealed. Saying anything further is worse that speculation. It amounts to arguing with God and straying into heresy. Our God, except to the extent He reveals Himself, has always been and remains a hidden God.

 

[Confess]

Lillamb wrote:

"Only by the Holy Spirit can we say that Jesus is Christ"

This is what I'm getting hung up on. This implies that you cannot choose Christ on your own without receiving the Holy Spirit. And God decides who to send the Holy Spirit to.

Well, I'll read more of Luther's texts and see what I can find there also. I think I'm missing a point somewhere here.

God chose ALL to receive the Holy Spirit. For this reason, I do not believe that anyone can truely be called an atheist. All have knowledge of God because that is God's free gift to the whole world.

A. Let me first of all refer you to a couple of resources that set forth the position of the Synod on Election and objective or "universal" justification. The doctrine of Election is summarized in the Synod's A Brief Statement of the Doctrinal Position of the Missouri Synod. You may also find helpful the Commission on Theology and Church Relation's 1983 Theses on Justification (see esp. section VI "The Universal and Finished Results of Christ's Work of Obedience").

From the standpoint of human reason, the scriptural teachings that God has objectively justified (objective justification) the whole world through the redemptive work of Jesus Christ and wants all people to be saved through faith in Him (subjective justification), and that He elected by grace from eternity those who are saved, cannot be resolved. We must say with Paul when he contemplates the mystery of our election, "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!"

And yet, we can say this on the basis of God's Word. By faith we hold that it is precisely because we Christians are God's elect that we proclaim the good news of salvation. We see this in Ephesians, where Paul begins by praising God for His election (the purest of Gospel and only meant for our comfort; Eph. 1:3-10), while at the same time and in the same breath declaring "Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God's grace, which was given me by the working of his power. To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ...." (Eph. 3:7-8). This same Apostle, who regarded himself as among God's elect, wrote to the Corinthians, "For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the Gospel!" (1 Cor. 9:16). We witness, therefore, because God commands us to make known His saving will to others and because we are in fact part of God's elective plan being carried out in history (Eph. 3)!

AND

The LCMS believes that Scripture clearly teaches (in passages such as those mentioned in your question) a predestination to salvation by God's grace in Jesus Christ alone. The LCMS does not believe that Scripture teaches a predestination to damnation: God desires all to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:3). Like so many teachings of Scripture (e.g., the Trinity, eternity, the two natures of Christ, the love of a holy God for rebellious sinners), this teaching seems contradictory and is incomprehensible to human reason. We believe it not because it "makes sense" to human reason, but because this is what we find taught in the pages of God's holy Word.

For a helpful summary of the LCMS position on predestination, see the section on "Of the Election of Grace" in the Synod's "Brief Statement" (adopted in 1932).

ELECTION OF GRACE CAN BE FOUND HERE: http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=576