Free will?

[KCDAD]

C2: I'm afraid I don't get what you mean here.

you are limiting choice to actions...

 

[elman]

In order to refute a piece of deductive logic, you must show one of the premises to be faulty or show how the conclusions do not follow from the premises. As you did neither, the logic stands.

No the logic does not stand. I have free will. It was given to me by God. It does not matter if God knows what I am going to chose to do, because it is still me that is chosing to do it.

 

[elman]

This is either a non-sequitur or you forgot to mention some of the logical steps that are necessary to arrive at this conclusion.

Btw., I haven´t claimed that we have no choice "because of God", but that God´s foreknowledge indicates that we have no choice.
But I am afraid, that even if I told you that a million times, you would still keep adressing this notion you would rather adress instead of the one I hold.
Goodbye, elman!

It is saying the exact same thing to say God has foreknowledge and therefore we have no choice as to say we have no choice because of God. In both cases the reason we have no choice is because of God having foreknowledge.

 

[elman]

I never started the discussion whether we have choice with the premise that we don´t have choice.

09:35 PM

Yes you did. You started with the premise that Cindy would be chosen--you stared with the premis that we did not have a choice.

Quote
Originally Posted by: elman

If it is my choice, God knowing what I am going to chose does not make it a non choice.

Except that it wasn´t a choice in the first place.

 

[Nightson]

you are limiting choice to actions...

I was talking about choosing actions (not choosing or choosing to do nothing count as choices), but the action doesn't have to be carried out to be your choice. But the choice can be anything, it can be choosing between vanila and chocolate.

 

[Nightson]

No the logic does not stand.

Then please demonstrate how, right now all you're doing is saying "Nuh uh"'

It does not matter if God knows what I am going to chose to do, because it is still me that is choosing to do it.

Let's say you're at the ice cream shoppe and you have to choose between Chocolate and Vanilla. Does God know before you, which one you're going to choose?

 

[Nightson]

Yes you did. You started with the premise that Cindy would be chosen--you stared with the premis that we did not have a choice.

Notice the first word

If God knows you'll marry Cindy, can you marry Sarah?

It works th exact same with

If God knows you'll marry Sarah, can you marry Cindy?

It works with anything

If God knows you'll do x, can you do y?

 

[DeepThinker]

Let's say you're at the ice cream shoppe and you have to choose between Chocolate and Vanilla. Does God know before you, which one you're going to choose?

I understand where you are comming from but knowing what someone is going to do and letting them do it all the same still gives that person free will, its still your choice, sometimes we do things that God does not like, he knows we will do them beacause he can see the future but this does not mean he does not give us free will, if we did not have free will we would never do anything against his rules.

 

[Nightson]

I understand where you are comming from but knowing what someone is going to do and letting them do it all the same still gives that person free will, its still your choice, sometimes we do things that God does not like, he knows we will do them beacause he can see the future but this does not mean he does not give us free will, if we did not have free will we would never do anything against his rules.

If God knows you're going to choose chocolate, was it possible for you to choose vanilla?

 

[DeepThinker]

If God knows you're going to choose chocolate, was it possible for you to choose vanilla?

well the answer is quite simply yes, it was possible for you to do it, God just sees the future as clearly as we see the past thats all, your confusing seeing the future, with fate(very similar and you could say you cant have one without the other, but as God says he is allpowerfull a paradox does not aply to him, as nothing, not even the power of a paradox can relate to ultimate power by its very definition). If you saw a man walk into a cafe and ordered coffie rather than tea, does that mean he never had the choice, more than that was it your choice because you know the choice he made? I only ask like this because we can see the past, God can just also see the future.

 

[Nightson]

well the answer is quite simply yes

If you choose vanilla, God is not infallible, since he thought you were going to choose chocolate.

 

[DeepThinker]

If you choose vanilla, God is not infallible, since he thought you were going to choose chocolate.

I did not choose vanilla, but I had the choice
Did you ignore the rest of my post or just not understand it?

 

[Nightson]

I did not choose vanilla, but I had the choice

So you could have chosen vanilla and rendered God fallible?

Did you ignore the rest of my post or just not understand it?

I ignored it, but if you wish...

but as God says he is allpowerfull a paradox does not aply to him

Special Pleading fallacy. We can no more have an omniscient infallible God and have free will then we can have a square circle. You cannot say that A = B and at the same time say A != B. It's like saying, this ball is red, and yet completly invisible (color is a reflection of light in the visible spectrum, no color no reflection). Saying that God can do it because he's all powerful is the same as saying your circle can be square because it has the mighty power of Greyskull.

 

[DeepThinker]

Special Pleading fallacy. We can no more have an omniscient infallible God and have free will then we can have a square circle. You cannot say that A = B and at the same time say A != B. It's like saying, this ball is red, and yet completly invisible (color is a reflection of light in the visible spectrum, no color no reflection). Saying that God can do it because he's all powerful is the same as saying your circle can be square because it has the mighty power of Greyskull.

Hehe no I dont think you get what alpowerfull means, just because it does not make sense to you.
Alpowerfull means that God can do anything, not anything compared to a mathematic equasion, not something that abides by the rules of science, not even anything applying to reason, no Alpowerfull means he can do anything, if he had not proclaimed to be alpowerfull your point would be valid, as he did you are just skipping it out because it does not make sense to you.

 

[DeepThinker]

So you could have chosen vanilla and rendered God fallible?

Well I spose I could have, the point is I did not, nor has anyone else ever.

 

[DeepThinker]

Well I spose I could have, the point is I did not, nor has anyone else ever.

The point is that I have the choice in anything I do, God just knows us all so well (and every other element of the universe) that he will know which choice it is that we make, it does not make it any less our choice, if he did not give us free will we would all do exactly what he wanted, you for example would not be an atheist, but he gave you free choice so you are.

 

[Mortensen]

Please quote me back at page six

 

[DeepThinker]

I dont know if this has been brought up here (havent read the whole post) but Ill try to make my point. It conserns humans ability to choose, but not nessisarry about free will.

Ill take Adam and Eve as an example to humans who lived in a invirement that were untouched by other humans and animals, a pure god-made envirement.

God created Adam and Eve and their invirement. Even before the earth were created, he knew that his first humans would make a sin, go against him. He knows why they will sin (they choose to do it. They evaluate the situation, takes Gods warning into the evaluation, but still they think its the best at that point to choose to sin (eating an apple or so)). Even if he know they will make a sin, because of their invirement and how their brain is constructed (its his construction), he waits untill they make a sin and then blames them for it. Its like playing with himselves. He knows what inpackt the invirement he made for them, will have on them and he knows the outcome of Adam and Eves evalutations, but still he lets it be and blames them for sinning. The choose to sin only because their mind (that god made) is constructed that way.

Now this makes sense, good arguement.
One tiny point and that is about the last bit about the way God made their minds, if you think about it like a computer with AI you dont program a computer like this, as such, to respond in a cirtian way to a cirtain situation, it makes its own choice, much the same as with the human mind except far more complecated. The fact that God knows what they will do is not done through working out what they will do logically, he just knows it, its a little hard to get your head around, (I'm totally confused) but it does make sense.

 

[Mortensen]

Now this makes sense, good arguement.
One tiny point and that is about the last bit about the way God made their minds, if you think about it like a computer with AI you dont program a computer like this, as such, to respond in a cirtian way to a cirtain situation, it makes its own choice, much the same as with the human mind except far more complecated. The fact that God knows what they will do is not done through working out what they will do logically, he just knows it, its a little hard to get your head around, (I'm totally confused) but it does make sense.

I have a question. If you take a human, put it in a spesific sitation and tells it to make a choice and he do it. If you replicate the situation (completely, do difference at all) with the same person. Would he make the same choice? Because if he do (I see no reason why not), each mind has its own way of dealing and evaluation situation and the outcome of the situation is the same every time as long as the situation is the same. So I really don't agree that we make a choise only based on our own mind.

 

[DeepThinker]

I have a question. If you take a human, put it in a spesific sitation and tells it to make a choice and he do it. If you replicate the situation (completely, do difference at all) with the same person. Would he make the same choice? Because if he do (I see no reason why not), each mind has its own way of dealing and evaluation situation and the outcome of the situation is the same every time as long as the situation is the same. So I really don't agree that we make a choise only based on our own mind.

I did nto say its only based on your mind, the human mind has an element in it though its not just your situation that defines what you do. You realy dont know what would happen, the person could make a totally different choice, what is your reason to think they would not? Do you have any examples on events that have happened relating to this, or is it an assumption?