Free will?

[MercuryAndy]

If god knows everything then he must know what we are going to do before we do it. So doesnt that mean we have no free will? If we went back to the creation of the universe and all the conditions were exactly the same. Would everything not progress as it had before? If everything only has one possibility and the possibility is the one that will happen. How can we have free will?

 

[knightlight72]

How does someone else knowing what you decide, affect what you decide?

 

[missionette]

In response to your first question:

This may be a little difficult to explain, but in reality, it is very clear to me. God may know what you're going to do, but that doesn't mean he's going to force you to do it. It's your "free will" to choose what you do in life, God isn't making you do anything. It's like if I know you really well and I ask you if you are a conservative or liberal person. I know what your answer is going to be, but that doesn't mean I'm forcing you to be either conservative or liberal.

The phrase "God has a plan for you" doesn't mean that you have to follow God's plan. Yet, God already knows if you are or if you aren't. Knowing is completely different from forcing.

Hope my example helped,
missionette

 

[Q2004]

So, God knew exactly what person A was going to do in Year 2000. Despite knowing exactly what person A was going to do, he still created Adam and Eve (knowing what they would do) therefore starting the chain of events that would put person A in the situation to do what God knew he would.

Eg: God Knows I'm going to steal a grape from the super market, but he started the chain of events that lead to that, even though he knew the outcome.

Therefore, I have no free will.

 

[knightlight72]

You have no freewill because you stole a grape and God knew that?

 

[weekendwarrior2412]

If you can follow his explanation, yes. See, while he's not (quote on quote) "forcing" you to do something, it doesn't matter. You were already going to do that anyway, maybe because you didn't choose the other option just to "prove" that he wasn't forcing you to do it. Since in the Christian view of God, he is all knowing, and in that, always correct, it is impossible for you to have free will, because he already knows what you're going to do, maybe even to the extent as stated above. If he already knows that you're going to do something, then automatically, you're going to do it, because he "can't be wrong".

 

[Lord Emsworth]

If god knows everything then he must know what we are going to do before we do it. So doesnt that mean we have no free will?

Not really, no. The problem is rather that Free Will itself is incoherent.

If we went back to the creation of the universe and all the conditions were exactly the same. Would everything not progress as it had before?

If you hold to strict determinism then, yes, that would have to be your position.

If everything only has one possibility and the possibility is the one that will happen. How can we have free will?

You don't. And neither can you have free will if something at least has the chance of p to happen and 1-p to not happen (with 1>p>0). That is called randomness, chance.

 

[Nightson]

You have no freewill because you stole a grape and God knew that?

If God knew you were going to steal it, could you decide not to?

 

[MercuryAndy]

You don't. And neither can you have free will if something at least has the chance of p to happen and 1-p to not happen (with 1>p>0). That is called randomness, chance.

How can something be random if everytime if the conditions were reproduced it would have the same result.

 

[Blackguard_]

Eg: God Knows I'm going to steal a grape from the super market, but he started the chain of events that lead to that, even though he knew the outcome.

Therefore, I have no free will.

No, becasuse this is an argument against Determinism, which freely admits there is no free-will. Its begging the question.

A causal chain resulting in you stealling the grape would mean you have no free-will even if God didn't know you would steal the grape because the causal chain would determine that you steal the grape independent of God's knowledge.

If he already knows that you're going to do something, then automatically, you're going to do it, because he "can't be wrong".

Why do people always get this backwards? Your free-will action would determine God's knowledge about said action, not the other way around.

How does God knowing you will do something necessarily determine you will do it? God's knowledge would simply coincide with what you determined to do if free will is true.

 

[knightlight72]

If God knew you were going to steal it, could you decide not to?

The question is leading. It's not accurate logically.

Here's why. If you decide to do an action, how can you undo that action? Once you steal something, you cannot unsteal it. You can put it back, and God would know that as well.

But you are stating an action has happened, and then ask if you can change your mind, for an action that hasn't even happened yet.

what's happening here here is an idea that action known equals to no choice in that action because someone knew it.


It's just not being explained how knowledge means lack of choice. If you chose to steal, you are choosing even if someone knew it first.

 

[Nightson]

It's just not being explained how knowledge means lack of choice. If you chose to steal, you are choosing even if someone knew it first.

What choice is there when there's only one option? If you know the coin is going to come up heads before you flip it, and you can't be wrong, the coin can't come up tails.

 

[Brennin]

You forgot the 'y.'

 

[Lord Emsworth]

How can something be random if everytime if the conditions were reproduced it would have the same result.

That isn't random. (You have p=1 or p=0) And it doesn't allow free will, as I said.

And neither is free will allowed, if 0<p<1. This is just randomness.

Does that make it clearer?

 

[quatona]

Why do people always get this backwards?

Probably because the argument itself has it backwards, and presupposes that causality chains can be assumed to be effective reverse to time.

Your free-will action would determine God's knowledge about said action, not the other way around.

See above.

How does God knowing you will do something necessarily determine you will do it?

Why do people always tackle a claim that hasn´t been made?
The argument is not that God´s foreknowledge determines the action, but merely that God´s foreknowledge indicates that the even must be determined and cannot be determined by the person acting.

God's knowledge would simply coincide with what you determined to do if free will is true.

Foreknowledge as coincidence? That´s a new one. I have never heard it before. I will have to think about its implications.
So far I just notice that it directly contradicts your above statement that the action determines God´s knowledge. That wouldn´t be coincidence.

 

[knightlight72]

What choice is there when there's only one option? If you know the coin is going to come up heads before you flip it, and you can't be wrong, the coin can't come up tails.

That still doesn't explain how knowledge means a lack of choice.

You keep saying that there is only one option, but that option is still chosen. You haven't explained how choice has been removed, only that the action has been determined once choice is made.

 

[Emmy]

Dear MercuryAndy, God knows what we will choose to do, or say, because knows our future, He knows what we have chosen, He knows, because He sees our life`s choices. God is so great and powerful, and all-knowing, and we are made in His image. We are capable of great love and care, we have brains to choose the right things, we know right from wrong, and God loves us and wants us back with Him again. Jesus died to reconcile us to God, He will lead us back into our heritage, God`s Kingdom, if we ask Him to guide us. Our part is to REPENT, to exchange our selfish and unloving character, into a selflessly loving and caring one. We have the choice, we choose, and we learn here on Earth. I say this with humility and love, MercuryAndy, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[elman]

If god knows everything then he must know what we are going to do before we do it. So doesnt that mean we have no free will? If we went back to the creation of the universe and all the conditions were exactly the same. Would everything not progress as it had before? If everything only has one possibility and the possibility is the one that will happen. How can we have free will?

Free will is the ability to chose to love or not love. God has given your that ability, therefore you have free will. What God knows about what you are going to do with your ability is irrelevant. As long as God does not decide for you and lets you decide you have free will.

 

[elman]

What choice is there when there's only one option? If you know the coin is going to come up heads before you flip it, and you can't be wrong, the coin can't come up tails.

Just put the coin in your pocket. It won't come up tails. There are always options and therefore there are always choices. There is never only one option. As you said if that were true there would be no options.

 

[elman]

So, God knew exactly what person A was going to do in Year 2000. Despite knowing exactly what person A was going to do, he still created Adam and Eve (knowing what they would do) therefore starting the chain of events that would put person A in the situation to do what God knew he would.

Eg: God Knows I'm going to steal a grape from the super market, but he started the chain of events that lead to that, even though he knew the outcome.

Therefore, I have no free will.

No therefore you have the ability to do what God did not want you to do. If He had created a world of machings, He would have known what they would do and they would always do what He wanted. He created humans knowing some would love and some would not love but know that it was necessary for them to be able to chose to not love in order for their choice to love to be valuable.