Free Will?

[red77]

The Gospel according to scriptures is foolishness to man. It's the Holy Spirit who takes off our blinders so we can see the truth and believe. This might be Jim47's point.

The problem with that is it seemed according to jim47's post that the bible would only make sense to a believer or someone who was 'saved'.........so would the bible not make sense to someone who was searching for answers and reading it? would they not find truth in it and would things not make sense.........?
It wouldnt make sense to me that the Bible could only be there for those who believe..... i thought it was there for people to find a source for belief who didnt as well as those who do believe.........
So much of the bible makes sense in regards to how we should treat one another and be loving,understanding etc......isnt that at the core of Christianity after all.......?

 

[heron]

Scriptures are very clear about choices. They are not very clear about God's knowlege of our future choices. I consider the shoe example conjecture, and the theology our churches have taught us.

Below is a bit obsessive, but here are listings of times people made choices or were told to make choices:

Jos 24:15
Now if you are unwilling to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve...

Gen 41:33
Now therefore let Pharaoh select a man who is discerning and wise, and set him over the land of Egypt.

Ex 10:26

Ex 12:21

Ex 17:9

Le 1:14

Nu 14:4

Nu 16:5

Nu 17:5

Nu 35:11

De 1:13

De 12:5

De 12:11

De 23:16 Outsiders choosing where to live

De 30:19 Choose life

Jos 3:12

Jos 4:2

1Sa 17:8

2Sa 17:1

2Sa 24:12
"Go and say to David: Thus says the Lord: Three things Ioffer you; choose one of them, and I will do it to you." Repeated in 1Ch 21:10.

1Ki 18:23-25

2Ki 10:3

1Ch 7:40

Job 7:15

Job 15:5
...You choose the tongue of the crafty. (Appears that God is disappointed with the choice, knowing both options were open.)

Job 34:4
Let us choose what is right; let us determine among ourselves what is good.

Job 34:33

Ps 16:4
Those who choose another god multiply their sorrows. (Multiplying assumes a source number...multiplying from the other choice they had.)

Ps 25:12

Ps 78:67
He rejected the tent of Joseph, he did not choose the tribe of Ephraim.

Pr 1:29
Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord. (People who clearly had a choice.)

Pr 3:31
Do not envy the violent and do not choose any of their ways. (Implies not just a choice, but an option that is not predestined)

Isa 7:15-16
He shall eat curds and honey by the time he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good.

Isa 56:4

Mt 8:3
He stretched out his hand and touched him, saying, "I do choose. Be made clean!" Immediately his leprosy was cleansed.

Mt 20:14

Mr 1:40-41
Moved with pity, Jesus stretched out his hand and touched him, and said to him, "I do choose. Be made clean!"
(Jesus as human on earth, with choice. Also consider His temptation in the desert.) also Luke 5:12-13

John 6:70
Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve? Yet one of you is a devil." (Jesus made choice, but one disciple chose to be corrupt)

Joh 8:44
Yet you look for an opportunity to kill me...you should do what you have heard from the Father...Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot accept my word....You are from your father the devil, and you choose to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning...

Acts 6:3
Therefore, friends, select from among yourselves seven men of good standing, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint to this task. (Clear choice.)

Ac 15:22-25

1Co 3:10
Each builder must choose with care how to build on it.


There are more, of course...

 

[LilLamb219]

So much of the bible makes sense in regards to how we should treat one another and be loving,understanding etc......isnt that at the core of Christianity after all.......?

NO. The core of Christianity is CHRIST who died on the cross for the forgiveness of sins. It's about God saving us!

 

[HoustonHorn]

Let me try one more time

I'm not saying God determined that I would wear brown shoes tomorrow. He could have, but let's just say He didn't. But He knows that I will choose the brown shoes over the black. If I woke up tomorrow and chose the black shoes instead then God was incorrect in knowing that I was going to wear the brown shoes, and since God cannot be wrong then I cannot pick the black shoes.

This is a conversation I've tried to have with several people and it always winds up like this, discussion God determining trivial issues and off of my question. Hopefully if I ask enough people eventually I'll figure out how to word it so it makes sense

 

[red77]

NO. The core of Christianity is CHRIST who died on the cross for the forgiveness of sins. It's about God saving us!

OK, the core of the christian ethic then.....my bad.......

 

[red77]

Let me try one more time

I'm not saying God determined that I would wear brown shoes tomorrow. He could have, but let's just say He didn't. But He knows that I will choose the brown shoes over the black. If I woke up tomorrow and chose the black shoes instead then God was incorrect in knowing that I was going to wear the brown shoes, and since God cannot be wrong then I cannot pick the black shoes.

This is a conversation I've tried to have with several people and it always winds up like this, discussion God determining trivial issues and off of my question. Hopefully if I ask enough people eventually I'll figure out how to word it so it makes sense

Dont we all have these moments.......? If God knows everything we do before we do it it still doesnt infringe upon our free will, whatever choice u make,
If u wear the black shoes its your choice, if u wear the brown its still your choice......
If someone knows what you're going to do before u do it it doesnt change the amount of free will u have to begin with, its just that someone aka God knows what you're going to do beforehand thats all.........its not like he's influencing u to make a choice, he just knows the choice you're going to make.........

 

[Momma2H]

Yeah, sorry to burst your bubble but it is perfectly possible to have been a believer and then go back to being a non-believer. The same happened to me though now I'm Christian again. Believe me, I didn't want to go back to not believing and believe me this kind of assumption about someones past beliefs isn't helpful.

Don't worry, you're not "bursting my bubble", which I'm not in one anyway. It's not possible to be saved, then go back to being unsaved. That makes no sense! Once Jesus saves you, you're always saved regardless of your sins. He paid for them on the cross and forgave you for them once you accepted Him as your Savior. So, when you get saved, then and only then are you a true Christian, so how can you go from being a true Christian to being non-Christian again? You can't.

It is possible to backslide in your faith,however, or keep getting further and further from God by sinning, but for those who are truly saved, there is always forgiveness waiting to be asked for and then given.

 

[LilLamb219]

But He knows that I will choose the brown shoes over the black.

Yeah. So He knows. Are you bothered by it?

 

[heron]

I'm not saying God determined that I would wear brown shoes tomorrow. He could have, but let's just say He didn't. But He knows that I will choose the brown shoes over the black. If I woke up tomorrow and chose the black shoes instead then God was incorrect in knowing that I was going to wear the brown shoes, and since God cannot be wrong then I cannot pick the black shoes.

Some Christians believe that God knows ALL the future, but not every Christian. So you won't get the same answers. Some speculate timelessness. But honestly, it is a man-made doctrine, as far as I can see.

 

[HoustonHorn]

Yeah. So He knows. Are you bothered by it?

Not at all. But He either knows I'm going to pick the brown shoes and is right when I pick them or is wrong if I choose the black shoes instead. Since God cannot be wrong then I cannot pick anything but the brown shoes. So my will isn't really free.

I promise, this really makes sense in my head

 

[Adstar]

I think my confusion is not getting across very well, or maybe too well

For God to know what what color shoes we're going to put on in the morning that decision has already had to have been made. Whether He made that decision or it was made by our soul before we were born doesn't really matter for my question. But if it's already been decided that I'm wearing brown shoes tomorrow, I'm not really making that decision in the morning. It's already been made. I'm just following the decision.

Nooo.

I understand where you are coming from but you do not realize that God created the universe and part of that universe is universal Time. God is not part of the Universe. He created the universe. He is not bound by the Laws of the universe nor is He trapped in the universe. He is not bound by the environment of the universe, part of that is universe time.

God sees all out times from his vantage point outside our time. All the universe is under His control. It is not the other way around. If God was a part of this universe a created part of this universe then your points would have validity but God being outside the universe but having the ability to interact with the universe can see all the universe both space and time all at one point in His own time space.

Are you confused?

Think of universal time as being a line. we being part of the line are like a dot on the line we know there has been a past and we know there will be a future but all we can perceive and understand is the present, But God being outside the Line looking at it can see the entire line and know all of it at one time.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

The problem with that is it seemed according to jim47's post that the bible would only make sense to a believer or someone who was 'saved'.........so would the bible not make sense to someone who was searching for answers and reading it? would they not find truth in it and would things not make sense.........?
It wouldnt make sense to me that the Bible could only be there for those who believe..... i thought it was there for people to find a source for belief who didnt as well as those who do believe.........
So much of the bible makes sense in regards to how we should treat one another and be loving,understanding etc......isnt that at the core of Christianity after all.......?

There are things in the bible that non-believers can understand and there is a simple message that people can accept. if you like there is a first step of faith that can be accessed by all. But if one does not take that first step in faith then much of the deeper things of scripture will remain a source of confusion to the unbeliever.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[heron]

Similar to Adstar's dot on the line, some Christians believe that humans live on linear time, and God in everything that surrounds it.

[edit: removed big photo with converging lines]

Lol, okay, I stole the photo so I didn't have control over the number of lines. Imagine that one is the time we know, another is Bermuda Triangle time, and the others running off the page are ones we don't know about yet.

(They look like they intersect at some point....?)

 

[The Virginian]

To start, let's assume God sees throughout time and knows what is going to happen. I'm guessing that's probably not too much of a stretch for most people here.

So He then knows everything I've done and everything I will do. Which means that everything I will do has already been determined.

Then how is my will free? If He knew from creation that I would be typing this post, how was it my decision to do so? I may think it was my decision, but under a God that can see through all time didn't he just plant the desire in me, negating my free will?

Look at what you've posted! For some reason you have equated that because God sees across the span of time, eveything which you'll ever do, it's the same as God deciding for you what your choice will be. The foreknowledge of the Almighty, does not compel me to act according to the will of God, in His foreknowledge. It was from the moment of you conceiving the idea, totally your decision to make the post.

If your premise is true; then, God plants in you the temptation, the desire to sin, since He knows the who, what, when, where, why, and how, of all your sinful acts. Do you see how that type of logic does not compute?

 

[Calminian]

HoustonHorn, there's a great book I'd like to suggest for you. It's called, The Only Wise God by William Lane Craig. The subject matter is Molinism. It's a way to understand and reconcile human libertarian freewill with God's exhaustive definite foreknowledge. I have a feeling you'll really like it. You sound like a prime molinist candidate.

 

[joyouspirit]

To start, let's assume God sees throughout time and knows what is going to happen. I'm guessing that's probably not too much of a stretch for most people here.

So He then knows everything I've done and everything I will do. Which means that everything I will do has already been determined.

Then how is my will free? If He knew from creation that I would be typing this post, how was it my decision to do so? I may think it was my decision, but under a God that can see through all time didn't he just plant the desire in me, negating my free will?

As I understand it. Yes, the Lord is the master planner and He knows every step we take but He doesn't tell us what to do example, in a situation. He lets us think for ourselves. What makes us go to the wrong path (sin) is when we choose to go the other way when we know in our hearts that we should go His way, the path of righteousness. Which was given to us through the Ten Commandments. In the New Testament, He summed it up to two, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. And Love your neighbor as yourself.
Usually the 'other way' is the easy way out, because the right way takes more commitment with Him.
And then when we sin, or 'messed up', we end up asking forgiveness from the Lord. We still go to Him in the end. And He always takes us back. God bless you!

 

[Key]

Huston Horn.

Funny that you ask these questions.
I assume you do not have children, but, just to use them for an example.

I ask my son when he comes home form being out with his friends "So what did you do tonight"
Now, I know, that my son is going to say "Nothing" I know it for a fact, that will be his answer. However, Just because I know what he will say, does not mean I influenced his decision to say that, nor does it mean that he did not chose of his own to give me that answer.

The Fact that I knew, I knew with out a doubt, he would say "Nothing" had no effect or influence on his choice to give me that answer.

Now if if works that simple with humans, why would it be any diffrent with God?


When You explain yrou reasiosn to me., we shall continue.

And Yes it was a Bad day.

God Bless
Key

 

[HoustonHorn]

Somewhere confusion set in. I don't mean God determined that I would wear brown shoes (I think this is that thread ) But He knows tomorrow morning I'm going to put on tennis shoes. Yes, I'm making the decision to put on tennis shoes because it's Memorial Day and I don't have to go to work. But He knows what that decision will be because He knows all throughout time.

On Key's example. Say you know your kid is going to say "nothing" to your question. What happens when he answers "we had a guest speaker at school today"? You were wrong about what he would say.

But God cannot be wrong. If God knew that your kid was going to answer "nothing" or I was going to wear tennis shoes, those events would have to happen because He cannot be wrong.

 

[Key]

Somewhere confusion set in. I don't mean God determined that I would wear brown shoes (I think this is that thread ) But He knows tomorrow morning I'm going to put on tennis shoes. Yes, I'm making the decision to put on tennis shoes because it's Memorial Day and I don't have to go to work. But He knows what that decision will be because He knows all throughout time.

Ok good, You grasp this, Gods foreknowledge of your actions is not the same as God Determines your actions. That is all there is to it.


What ever you Do,. God Knew you would do that, But what ever you do, You chose to do (Within Confines of Course)

On Key's example. Say you know your kid is going to say "nothing" to your question. What happens when he answers "we had a guest speaker at school today"? You were wrong about what he would say.

Yes I would be wrong, But in any event, I do not influence nor did I determine what my son would have said. So when he Said “Nothing” it was his Choice to do that, if he said “we had a Guest Speaker” it was his Choice.


Would it have been less of his Choice, if I knew he was going to say “We had a Guest Speaker today” ?


I think Not. But I could be Wrong.

But God cannot be wrong. If God knew that your kid was going to answer "nothing" or I was going to wear tennis shoes, those events would have to happen because He cannot be wrong.

Once again we return to “What ever you do, God Knew you were going to do that” but that makes it no less your decision, a Choice you formulated in your mind, and then executed.


If you ran down the street naked while running after a pack of rabid dogs and lit yourself on fire, God knew you were going to do that too (No one else might have) but, in the end, you still chose to do it. You came to the decision to do as you did, God did not command it of you.


Imagine of I knew what you were going to do, 10 min before you did it, That's right, Me, I know what you will do, no matter what it is you will do, I will know of it 10 min. before you do it.


Do I influence you to do anything?


Does my foreknowledge effect your choice to do as you will?


No, just like I know my son will say “Nothing happened” does not change his response, does not make him say it, or make him say something different. It's separate form each other.


I know, I struggled with this one myself, and I tell you it is a hard one to grasp sometimes.


However, Do not Fool yourself, You do not truly have Complete Free Will


Hence why I said”Makes me feel better to say that, as opposed to the realllllllllllllllyyyyyy long explaination as to how you really do have some hint of a free will.“


God Bless
Key.

 

[HoustonHorn]

Ok good, You grasp this, Gods foreknowledge of your actions is not the same as God Determines your actions. That is all there is to it.

I understood this from the start, just didn't express it well.

Back to the original question now that I have someone who I think understands.

If God knows that 10 minutes from now I'm going to get up and fix dinner, in 10 minutes I must get up and fix dinner. I don't really have a choice because if I decided not to fix dinner then God really didn't know. And since God must be right all the time then I must get up in 10 minutes to fix dinner. It may be my decision, but God knew which one I would make.

However, Do not Fool yourself, You do not truly have Complete Free Will

This sounds like my original question, and it sounds like you agree with it.