Free Will?

[HoustonHorn]

To start, let's assume God sees throughout time and knows what is going to happen. I'm guessing that's probably not too much of a stretch for most people here.

So He then knows everything I've done and everything I will do. Which means that everything I will do has already been determined.

Then how is my will free? If He knew from creation that I would be typing this post, how was it my decision to do so? I may think it was my decision, but under a God that can see through all time didn't he just plant the desire in me, negating my free will?

 

[Momma2H]

He knows what we're going to do, but he doesn't stop us from doing it, which is where the "free will" comes in. Even when someone is bound to do something that will hurt them, God won't stop it from happening, unless of course it was destined for Him to. But, he won't stop us from sinning. We have to do that on our own.

 

[Jim47]

To start, let's assume God sees throughout time and knows what is going to happen. I'm guessing that's probably not too much of a stretch for most people here.

So He then knows everything I've done and everything I will do. Which means that everything I will do has already been determined.

Then how is my will free? If He knew from creation that I would be typing this post, how was it my decision to do so? I may think it was my decision, but under a God that can see through all time didn't he just plant the desire in me, negating my free will?

Momma2H has already answered part of this. But think about this for a minute, How do you know what God has decided?

It isn't God's will that anyone sins, but yet we all do. It isn't God's will that anyone should go to Hell, but He has said that only those who believe in Jesus as their Savior will enter Heaven. So that means all who reject Jesus will not enter Heaven, and will instead be condemmed to Hell.

May I ask you a question? How much of the bible have you written? You clearly have an interest but I must tell you this: The words written in the bible won't make sence unless you have faith in God and Jesus as your Savior. They are utter non-sence to unbelievers, you can only understand through faith. Are you ready to trust God?

 

[LilLamb219]

Our will is free concerning choosing the color of your shoes of what you'll have for lunch today. Just because God knows what you will choose, it doesn't mean he caused it to be.

As in spiritual matters though, our will is not free, it is bound to sin and cannot choose or decide for God. The Holy Spirit gives us faith to believe so that we may have eternal life, but we don't have free will to do that just as Lazarus as a dead man didn't have free will to choose to be resurrected.

 

[Key]

To start, let's assume God sees throughout time and knows what is going to happen. I'm guessing that's probably not too much of a stretch for most people here.

So He then knows everything I've done and everything I will do. Which means that everything I will do has already been determined.

Then how is my will free? If He knew from creation that I would be typing this post, how was it my decision to do so? I may think it was my decision, but under a God that can see through all time didn't he just plant the desire in me, negating my free will?

You figured it out, you have no free will, no choice at all.

Make you feel better?

Makes me feel better to say that, as opposed to the realllllllllllllllyyyyyy long explaination as to how you really do have some hint of a free will.

God Bless

Key.

 

[HoustonHorn]

How much of the bible have you written?

I assume that's supposed to be how much have I read, correct? If so, then probably not enough to satisfy anyone here that I've read, well, enough.

I tend to read in chunks. At one point I would pray, pick a section, read it, and write about what I understood of my reading. Now I tend to read what others suggest, be it a Christian or non-Christian. But I always read the verses before I read any opinions of those verses so that I can try and come to my own conclusions. My assumption is that if God is going to lead me to an understanding of a particular verse then I shouldn't have any preconceived ideas going in.

The words written in the bible won't make sence unless you have faith in God and Jesus as your Savior. They are utter non-sence to unbelievers, you can only understand through faith. Are you ready to trust God?

I used to trust God, and the Bible made no sense. It makes more sense now that I read it as a non-Christian. To me it's now a book of moral lessons, much like fables. Before it was more like a history book which I just never could quite accept. Oh, I accepted the key parts that define Christianity - resurrection, devinity of Christ, etc. Just had trouble with some of the other parts. At the time I struggled with the idea of a boat big enough for all the animals (just an example) but had no problem with Jesus rising from the grave.

The problem I see with needing faith to understand the Bible is sort of a chicken and egg problem. You have to have faith for the Bible to make sense, but the Bible needs to make sense to strengthen your faith.

You figured it out, you have no free will, no choice at all.

Key - hit you on a bad day? And no, that really doesn't make me feel any better. A little worse actually because you've been so helpful.

Ok, back to the original question.

It doesn't matter if we're talking about picking the brown shoes when I get dressed tomorrow or walking to the front of the church next Sunday. God knows what these decisions will be. Whether it's something we are allowed to choose or something God chooses for us really doesn't matter to this discussion. He knows what what color shoes I'm going to pick tomorrow morning. So if it's already determined, where does free will fit in? If I was really free to choose the black shoes instead, then God didn't really know what would happen.

LilLamb - follow up question for you. How can you decide that lunch or shoe color is something too trivial for God to decide for us? Apologies if I'm putting words in your mouth, but that's how I understood what you wrote. Maybe by the decision to have pizza for lunch tomorrow you'll run into somebody you can witness to and God got you to the pizza place for a reason.

 

[Momma2H]

Our will is free concerning choosing the color of your shoes of what you'll have for lunch today. Just because God knows what you will choose, it doesn't mean he caused it to be.

As in spiritual matters though, our will is not free, it is bound to sin and cannot choose or decide for God. The Holy Spirit gives us faith to believe so that we may have eternal life, but we don't have free will to do that just as Lazarus as a dead man didn't have free will to choose to be resurrected.

Hmmm.... I don't agree with you that we don't have the free will to sin. I believe that we do and we also have the free will not to as well. For me personally, I always know if something I do (such as lying) is a sin, even before I do it and I always have the choice, or free will, not to do it. Sometimes I do it anyway and if I do, I'm always convicted about it.

 

[Momma2H]

I used to trust God, and the Bible made no sense. It makes more sense now that I read it as a non-Christian.

Ok, once you become a Christian, you can't go back to being a non-Christian, so it sounds like you were never a true believer in the first place. Which also make sense as to why you'd be questioning God and the Bible so much. I'm not trying to sound rude here, but nobody could "used to have been a Christian". Once you're saved, you're always saved. And more than that, if you're a true believer, you wouldn't want to go back to being a non-believer.

 

[Adstar]

To start, let's assume God sees throughout time and knows what is going to happen. I'm guessing that's probably not too much of a stretch for most people here.

So He then knows everything I've done and everything I will do. Which means that everything I will do has already been determined.

Then how is my will free? If He knew from creation that I would be typing this post, how was it my decision to do so? I may think it was my decision, but under a God that can see through all time didn't he just plant the desire in me, negating my free will?

Just imagine if you where a scientist working on a project that succeeded in creating a time machine. And you where chosen to take the first trip. You dial in the year 2078 and find yourself hovering over a house in a suburb in a ball of energy invisible to all the people around. But you being in the inside can observe everything around you.

Now two kids are in the back yard of this house and one picks up a puppy to pat it. The other one being jealous runs in to his mother to complain that he is not allowed to pat the puppy.

Now just because you have viewed the exchange does that take away the free will of the two children? Does your observation and foreknowledge of their actions and deeds somehow make you the one who forced them like zombies to preform their actions at the time they did?

Free will exists and history is being made from peoples free will actions. People are influenced by many things but in the end their own actions are determined by their decision to act or react in a certain way. Just because God has foreknowledge of how one will react and act does in no way suggest that God has forced the individual to act in that way or make a certain decision.

God can indeed move a person to contemplate something through their conscience. But People have and do resist the will of God. People can and do suppress their consciences for personal gain or fear of doing the right thing. But in the end our free will is still real.

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

It is very important to note that God foreknew before He predestined.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[SonicBOOM]

To start, let's assume God sees throughout time and knows what is going to happen. I'm guessing that's probably not too much of a stretch for most people here.

So He then knows everything I've done and everything I will do. Which means that everything I will do has already been determined.

Then how is my will free? If He knew from creation that I would be typing this post, how was it my decision to do so? I may think it was my decision, but under a God that can see through all time didn't he just plant the desire in me, negating my free will?

dunno... why don't you ask God?

 

[Calminian]

So He then knows everything I've done and everything I will do. Which means that everything I will do has already been determined.

Actually it doesn't. Foreknowing is not the same as determining. If you're watching a video tape of a basketball game, you may already know who won because you checked the scores over the internet. Does that mean you determined the outcome of the game? To put it another way, the fact that something will happen, doesn't necessarily mean it must happen.

Then how is my will free? If He knew from creation that I would be typing this post, how was it my decision to do so? I may think it was my decision, but under a God that can see through all time didn't he just plant the desire in me, negating my free will?

There are likely very many decisions you make that are not determined by you. But I also believe you have, and will have, true libertarian choices as well—choices for which you are accountable.

 

[HoustonHorn]

Actually it doesn't. Foreknowing is not the same as determining.

I didn't mean necessarily that He determined it, just that he already knew what would happen.

Ok, once you become a Christian, you can't go back to being a non-Christian, so it sounds like you were never a true believer in the first place. Which also make sense as to why you'd be questioning God and the Bible so much. I'm not trying to sound rude here, but nobody could "used to have been a Christian". Once you're saved, you're always saved. And more than that, if you're a true believer, you wouldn't want to go back to being a non-believer.

While I appreciate where you're coming from, that is not a valid answer. I promise you that there was no doubt I was a Christian, no doubt I was saved, no doubt I was going to Heaven. Please don't assume you know anything about my previous beliefs.

And I don't want to be a non-believer. Blind faith in God made things make sense. But the more I learned about Christianity, from both outside sources and from the Bible itself, the less I'm able to believe it as valid.

 

[starelda]

Ok, once you become a Christian, you can't go back to being a non-Christian, so it sounds like you were never a true believer in the first place. Which also make sense as to why you'd be questioning God and the Bible so much. I'm not trying to sound rude here, but nobody could "used to have been a Christian". Once you're saved, you're always saved. And more than that, if you're a true believer, you wouldn't want to go back to being a non-believer.

Yeah, sorry to burst your bubble but it is perfectly possible to have been a believer and then go back to being a non-believer. The same happened to me though now I'm Christian again. Believe me, I didn't want to go back to not believing and believe me this kind of assumption about someones past beliefs isn't helpful.

But back to the question...
I agree with what others have said...just because He knows doesn't mean He's made us do something. People like to think their futures aren't set in stone, that they can change their minds and change the outcome...and they can. So when someone comes along and says "God knows all your past, present and future" it can be a struggle to get their heads round it. They think "how can He know? I haven't done that yet...I haven't made my decision, on x, y and z yet". It makes them wonder if they have to throw the whole "future is not set in stone" idea out the window. Least that's what I wondered anyway.

I used to think that maybe God only knew part of our future...say maybe what would happen should we stay on our current path and then when we reach a fork in the path He doesn't know the future until we decide which route to go down. But now I'm leaning towards the idea that God knows the whole of our future...that He can see beyond the fork in the road but just because He can do so doesn't mean we don't have choices. The choices we need to make are still there, still real choices and we're perfectly free to choose either one...it's just God has seen the future and knows which one we'll take. Like if I had a time machine and could go into the future and see which choices someone would make...just because I now know which path they'll choose to walk down doesn't take away from their freedom to choose. They still have that choice...all I know is which one it'll be.

Now if I were to tell them that I'd seen their future and then make them take a particular path...then they'd no longer have free will. I'd have taken away the choice. Likewise if God created us as mindless robots who just followed His every command we'd have no choice. We'd have no free will. But God didn't do that...He gave us brains so that we can think for ourselves and make choices for ourselves. Just because He happens to know the outcome of those choices doesn't mean there is no choice. And that's essentially what free will is...it's having a choice. God just knows what we'll choose..He doesn't make us choose it.

 

[heron]

On our local news, we watch weather projections. The computers analyze the vectors and variables-- wind velocity, cloud height, ground temperature, pressures in each direction...

We see evidence of computer projections in many areas of life. Now imagine that God's mind is the most powerful supercomputer you could imagine. He can do projections that span thousands of years...millions...into eternity.

Obviously He knows existing variables, the options, possible strategies, human nature...

Brains are wonderful things. Every day we make similar projections, deciding which route to drive to work, what time to call someone, which coat to put on, based on existing conditions and known possibilities.

In the Bible, we have several verses that He knows our hearts and knows details of what's going on throughout the world.

As for the future, we have prophecies about things to come. I don't think these prove that we don't have choices, but show that He has intents, or sees certain things as unavoidable.

Maybe He knows everything that will ever happen, but I haven't seen this spelled out in scriptures. He probably knows everything that could happen and certain things that He will choose to happen.

Most of the prophecies give warnings, and choices to repent or escape danger.

Most of them show that He declares things and chooses for them to happen, then forewarns us so we can make choices accordingly.

Isaiah 42:9

Behold, the former things have come to pass, now I declare new things; before they spring forth I proclaim them to you.

Isaiah 46:10

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, `My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure.'

Daniel 2:28

However, there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will take place in the latter days.

.



​

 

[HoustonHorn]

I think my confusion is not getting across very well, or maybe too well

For God to know what what color shoes we're going to put on in the morning that decision has already had to have been made. Whether He made that decision or it was made by our soul before we were born doesn't really matter for my question. But if it's already been decided that I'm wearing brown shoes tomorrow, I'm not really making that decision in the morning. It's already been made. I'm just following the decision.

 

[red77]

Momma2H has already answered part of this. But think about this for a minute, How do you know what God has decided?

It isn't God's will that anyone sins, but yet we all do. It isn't God's will that anyone should go to Hell, but He has said that only those who believe in Jesus as their Savior will enter Heaven. So that means all who reject Jesus will not enter Heaven, and will instead be condemmed to Hell.

May I ask you a question? How much of the bible have you written? You clearly have an interest but I must tell you this: The words written in the bible won't make sence unless you have faith in God and Jesus as your Savior. They are utter non-sence to unbelievers, you can only understand through faith. Are you ready to trust God?

WHAT?! Where does it say that the Bible is utter nonsense to unbelievers......?! The 10 commandments make no sense unless you're born again........?! the parable of the good samaritan is gibberish unless you're saved?!
I also thought God said he was the saviour of all mankind, that he would have all men be safe and come to a knowledge of the truth..........
Didnt the disciples ask who can be saved? And didnt Jesus reply 'with man this is impossible, but with God ALL things are possible'............?
Yet man and his 'wisdom' still want to put restrictions on his love and mercy, 'hell' and indescribable suffering seem to make more sense than ultimate forgiveness and grace for those who weren't insightful enough to make the right choice.........
Would still be good to hear unequivocable truth about what 'hell' actually is anyway..........it really is confusing...........

 

[LilLamb219]

The Gospel according to scriptures is foolishness to man. It's the Holy Spirit who takes off our blinders so we can see the truth and believe. This might be Jim47's point.

 

[LilLamb219]

For God to know what what color shoes we're going to put on in the morning that decision has already had to have been made. Whether He made that decision or it was made by our soul before we were born doesn't really matter for my question. But if it's already been decided that I'm wearing brown shoes tomorrow, I'm not really making that decision in the morning. It's already been made. I'm just following the decision.

Someone who makes a "decision" is playing an active part, but just having knowledge of what someone else will decide is not being active.

So, when God KNOWS you'll choose wear brown shoes tomorrow, it doesn't mean that HE decided it for you. It just means He is aware of it.

 

[LilLamb219]

Hmmm.... I don't agree with you that we don't have the free will to sin. I believe that we do and we also have the free will not to as well. For me personally, I always know if something I do (such as lying) is a sin, even before I do it and I always have the choice, or free will, not to do it. Sometimes I do it anyway and if I do, I'm always convicted about it.

Sin means to miss the mark. As sinners, we do indeed miss the mark all the time. We never get it right on our own, correct? That's why we needed a Savior. As a Christian, the Holy Spirit guides you to do what is right as He sanctifies you. That is one difference between you and the non-Christian.

 

[Bananafish]

Ok, once you become a Christian, you can't go back to being a non-Christian, so it sounds like you were never a true believer in the first place. Which also make sense as to why you'd be questioning God and the Bible so much. I'm not trying to sound rude here, but nobody could "used to have been a Christian". Once you're saved, you're always saved. And more than that, if you're a true believer, you wouldn't want to go back to being a non-believer.

Wow. How very condescending and very wrong.