Free will

[Reflectionist]

Do you guys believe that Free Will Exists?

I was always taught to believe that it does, for, evangelical purposes, but then my youth minister pointed out to me Ephesians 1:4-5... I found the other ones on my own.


Ephesians 1:4-5
Romans 9 (the whole chapter)
Ephesians 6:19

 

[apenman]

It would be better if you actually quoted the scripture, rather than just the reference. And yes, there certainly is free will.

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Do you guys believe that Free Will Exists?

I was always taught to believe that it does, for, evangelical purposes, but then my youth minister pointed out to me Ephesians 1:4-5... I found the other ones on my own.


Ephesians 1:4-5
Romans 9 (the whole chapter)
Ephesians 6:19

Just to be clear, are you stating that your Baptist youth minister doesn't believe in Free Will? What exactly is this about?

 

[Reflectionist]

no, no, no, no, no....

Don't get me wrong about my youth minister.

He just simply pointed the scripture out to me, and asked me what I thought about it... and then said that many theologans are debating on wether or not free will exists.

And, absolutely....

Ephesians 1:4-5

For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love,

He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will -

And, I can't exactly quote all of Romans 9, I'd be sitting here forever... lol, the gist of it is in Romans 9:16-18

Romans 9:16-18

It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

For the Scripture says to Pharoah, "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Ephesians 6:19

Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel.

And, on the Free Will subject, understand that I'm just talking about salvation... Although, I admit, free will may be a dead subject, since, we may have free will to us, but not to God, considering God knows the future, and our free will might be obsolete. Does this make sense?

 

[mshupe1959]

And, on the Free Will subject, understand that I'm just talking about salvation... Although, I admit, free will may be a dead subject, since, we may have free will to us, but not to God, considering God knows the future, and our free will might be obsolete. Does this make sense?

It is probobly beyond our ability to fully comprehend that God gave us free will but he is outside of time. He is infinite and we are finite. God created Adam and Eve when He knew what would happen in the garden, but He created them anyway. He knew what would happen throughout eternity. He knew that He would have to send His Son to die on a cross. Just because He knew doesn't mean that we don't have free will. He just knows what our decisions will be long before we are born. If you had a son and you knew that he would get in trouble and end up going to jail, would you love him enough to still give birth to him?
It is kind of comforting to know that God knows all about me and all the stupid decisions I will ever make, but still loves me none the less.

 

[D.W.]

Shalom,

When G-d wants us to do something it is with a cause that is for the greater good of all. If we do not want to do what G-d needs of us to do then he will find someone else to do what he needs done. Mordecai knew this very well when he told Esther these words.

Est 4:13 Then Mordecai commanded to answer Esther, Think not with thyself that thou shalt escape in the king's house, more than all the Jews.
Est 4:14 For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place; but thou and thy father's house shall be destroyed: and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?

G-d Bless,
Dan

 

[AdamAnderson21]

Freewill is a human perception. The universe is ruled through the laws of cause and effect, of karma. Since causes cannot be altered, then we are the result of something that we cannot change. There is only one singular future and we are heading towards it. We all are, who we all are.

The important question then becomes, why do we percieve this. The answer is growth. Things evolve because of their need for survival. If there was no death in the world, then humans would never exist. We are the result of a bateria millions of years ago struggling to survive. Of a fish swimming up towards the light, because its habitat was decaying. The only reason things evolve, things grow, is because of their biological desire to survive.

We carry these same basic laws with us into the spiritual world. In reality, there are no such thing as good and evil. That would be like a rock calling another rock evil because a human kicked it off a cliff. The rock had no control over its destiny, and neither do we. We only percieve that we do.

So why do we do this? We create the perception of good and evil, so that we can die! If we did not spiritually die, then there would never be spiritual evolution, or enlightenment. We would all be mentally stagnant. It is through suffering, through death, that we truely learn how to live. This is the greatest blessing of all!

 

[Reflectionist]

I wouldn't go that far with it...

and I don't believe we were evolved from fish either... but whatever man....

 

[Blackguard_]

Do you guys believe that Free Will Exists?

No. If Man has a fallen nature, (an inability to not sin/slavery to sin) how can you say our will is free? What strange definition of "free" do you have if you say Man's will is enslaved to sin and free?

 

[Spherical Time]

I believe in free will, but I can only believe in free will if I don't believe in predestination and fate.

Tangential ramblings, please ignore: There are consequences to our actions, and limitations on what we can do, so I can't say that we have perfect free will (I can't decide that I want to learn how to fly by flapping my arms) but there is a certain ammount of follow through. My decision not to put money into a savings account means that one day I can expect to have a need that is not fufilled, but that's not because it's fated to happen, it's part of a previous choice.

Also, our choices are influenced by other people's choices, and I don't think that we can deny that. Despite findings that political stance might be genetic, we tend to share the same views as our parents, and that is part of the consequences of their choice, and not necessarily our own.

 

[Amurphycat]

Interesting concept.

As some points in the bible deal with restriction, of certin "free wills". Though when you start to live outside of a Sinner type world, you find that there is so much, boundless goodness.(so free will, in that aspect can be easily lost) We are just still young, and simple in our eternal life(god) span(we still make stupid mistakes)

Though to lump everything as a free will(being able to do anything), would be inaccurate. At what points does ones free will, coinside with anothers.

Other points being, what exactly is "free will" and how intelligent are we as humans to fully grasp the total concepts that exist on this earth or universe. Our first thought with free will have to do with basic wants, as humans(this is explainable with ease- we are still a bit primative- no bad intented, i think of myself that way too).

We are free to do what we want, but what is it that we really want... That is the real question. Most of the first things that would come to mind, are simple(and totally exceptable- housing, food, and the same for others).

(I am sorry, i have gotten a bit lost, in my explanation. I will return to finish it later, hopefully)

 

[elman]

no, no, no, no, no....

Don't get me wrong about my youth minister.

He just simply pointed the scripture out to me, and asked me what I thought about it... and then said that many theologans are debating on wether or not free will exists.

And, absolutely....



And, I can't exactly quote all of Romans 9, I'd be sitting here forever... lol, the gist of it is in Romans 9:16-18





And, on the Free Will subject, understand that I'm just talking about salvation... Although, I admit, free will may be a dead subject, since, we may have free will to us, but not to God, considering God knows the future, and our free will might be obsolete. Does this make sense?

No. God knowing what we are going to chose does not effect who makes the choice. The rest of the Bible assumes we are able to accept God and be loving or reject God and not be loving so why would these verses be assumed to contradict that?

 

[Blackguard_]

No. God knowing what we are going to chose does not effect who makes the choice.

right, god knowing the future does not mean there is no free will.

The rest of the Bible assumes we are able to accept God and be loving or reject God and not be loving so why would these verses be assumed to contradict that?

No it does not. The Bible saying to accept God and be loving is just as much a commandment as "do not steal/lie/kill/commit adultery/etc.". Love and accepting God is the very basis of the Law. If we are capable of accepting Christ and loving, we are capable of following the Law. And being able to accept Jesus would be salvation based on works, if you are going to respond by basically saying we can only partially fulfill the Law and accepting Jesus means we are graded on a curve.

 

[elman]

right, god knowing the future does not mean there is no free will.


No it does not. The Bible saying to accept God and be loving is just as much a commandment as "do not steal/lie/kill/commit adultery/etc.". Love and accepting God is the very basis of the Law. If we are capable of accepting Christ and loving, we are capable of following the Law. And being able to accept Jesus would be salvation based on works, if you are going to respond by basically saying we can only partially fulfill the Law and accepting Jesus means we are graded on a curve.

Jesus said the law of God was summed up in loving your neighbor. He seemed to assume we are able to love our neighbor. First John indicates if we fail to love our neighbor we are not a child of God. So am I saying we are saved by works and not by grace. No because we cannot love perfectly as God does. Am I saying we will not receive the grace if we do not love, yes I think that is taught in First John and elsewhere. James says faith without works is dead and Paul taught in 1 Cor 13 the faith to move mountains is worthless without love. Being able to love and accept Jesus is not salvation based on works if we understand the works do not justify our receiving the gift of eternal life.

 

[newcreature777]

Jesus Is Lord

 

[AionOlam]

I do not believe we have free will. We can make choices, but circumstances that are beyond our control (and that we have not created) cause what choices we make.

Did you decide:

Your nationality?
Your parents?
Whether you are male or female?

The list could go on and on. Everything we do is influenced by something not in our control.

Your decision to believe or not believe in God wasn't your free choice. You made that decision based upon circumstances that influenced or caused you to make that choice.

There are many many scriptures that explain that God is in control of all. That's why He knows what our choices will be. He is the creator of all circumstances. He is the Master Potter, he molded each of us as it pleased Him.

Hell is the grave/death. Jesus' sacrifice was God's way of redeeming all of us from this final destiny. But God, decides when Jesus will draw us into Himself.

As God's children (future Gods?), we need to learn the difference between good and evil so that we can appreciate good. If we had nothing to compare it to, we would not understand what a wonderful thing it is. Our life is a journey back to God. The only way we will be able to be in His presence is to be cleansed of all our evil. Jesus is the "way" we must walk in order to realize this "truth" and ultimately have "life" so that God, Who is our life, can be all in all.

Our earthy bodies are temporary, eventually this outer shell begins to crumble and in death returns to the dust it was created from. Our spirit (life) returns to God and our soul sleeps until God reawakens us. He will raise us in new incorruptible bodies. We are all judged and corrected in either this life or at judgment. The Lake of Fire is symbolic of the final purification process. It will purge us of all impurities (evil). Hell/Grave and Death, which have no good in them will be eradicated in the purification process. Then those who will have their "part" in the lake will be purified or "salted" with God's Holy Fire.

I guess I wandered a bit from the topic, so sorry. I was just trying to also respond with my opinion to Waiting's compound question that if God created evil what was the purpose of Jesus' sacrifice.

Chris

 

[Reflectionist]

Jesus Is Lord

This is unneeded. Thank you, we already know. But honestly, this has to be the silliest post ever.

It's like me going up and posting in some thread "my computer is on"

This can be considered as spam, considering that it's on the edge of mocking, and its evangelical, and isn't needed in a thread like this.

 

[mshupe1959]

Oh I don't know that I would call it that. I've seen much sillier posts.
I would consider a silly post, oh, something said out of ignorance or completely devoid of common sense. It certainly doesn't hurt to be reminded every once in a while. Welcome both of you. Now be nice.

 

[PastorJason]

We have free will. We get to choose. While a good part of our lives is indeed shaped by our context (nationality, parentage, economics, etc.), we are not held in those chains. Our decisionmaking processes may be affected by what has led us to this point, and our choices may be limited by our past actions (e.g. a heroin addict cannot simply decide one day to be clean and drug-free in the next moment, and thus it is so) but we still get to choose. Otherwise, life becomes automatic and little meaning can be found.

Interesting how people continue to circle the same topics over and over again (I'm thinking here of the ideas of predestination, double predestination, etc.), and each new generation thinks they can somehow come up with an answer to questions of philosophy that others have not, especially without changing the field of cogitational parameters. Anyway. Just my two cents. We could go way off in left field about this one, but I'm not sure that's what the questioner had in mind.

 

[flautist]

Whenever I wonder about this, all I have to do is think of victims of terrible crimes. Rape, murder, even the terrorist bombings. God doesn't WANT that to happen. I think (hope) we can all agree on that. So, if he doesn't want it to happen, why does he let it? The explanation that makes the most sense to me is that he gave man the ability to make choices in their lives... that was a gift to us. Some people use that gift for evil. However, God doesn't stop them from that because it was a promise to us for him to let us have it. Does that make any sense, or do I need to explain better?