Free Will

[joemaloy]

Is life predetermined or do you have free will.
Considering that the bible has lots of things about prophecy.. ie"Life Predetermined"
Then you have the "Choice" of accepting Christ as you savior.
I cant see how you can have both.
Did Christ know from his birth that he was going to be Crucified, and if not when DID he know. or was Going on the cross a "plan B" sence the Jews didnt accept him.
He knew that Judas was going to betray him. -Predetermined-
At this Point Im leaning toward life being Predetermined.

Oh. And whatever you do, DONT come on here and say just have faith,cause to me thats just a copout.

 

[Socrastein]

For every choice X, either you can only choose one way, or you could choose any number of ways. However, if you can choose more than one way with EVERY SINGLE variable the same, and the outcome is different, then your choice had nothing to do with the variables. If no matter the situation you can make different choices in said situation, your situation does not dictate your choice - if that is the case, then your choice is just a random, causeless event, and shouldn't even be called a choice.

Think of a game of pool, and if someone were to hit the ball - if that ball was hit again with ALL variables the same - it's in the same spot on the table, it's hit with same force and speed at same angle, the grooves and inconsistencies of the pool table are all exactly the same, etc. - could it possibly react differently? Could it shoot to the left one time, shoot to the right another time, and maybe the third time it just pops up and off the table? If the action of the ball has nothing to do with the variables and causes of its motion, then the ball's actions will be random every time you hit it.

Are choices like this? I think not, for this isn't even choice, this is random happenings.

Therefore the only valid paradigm in which choice can be found is causal determinism, where choices are made because of, and dictated by, reasons and causes. If they are not causally determined, they are indetermined, and indetermined is just another way of saying purely random.

 

[joemaloy]

"Think of a game of pool, and if someone were to hit the ball - if that ball was hit again with ALL variables the same - it's in the same spot on the table, it's hit with same force and speed at same angle, the grooves and inconsistencies of the pool table are all exactly the same, etc. - could it possibly react differently? Could it shoot to the left one time, shoot to the right another time, and maybe the third time it just pops up and off the table? If the action of the ball has nothing to do with the variables and causes of its motion, then the ball's actions will be random every time you hit it. "

I play pool alot, And if you hit the pool balls the EXACTLY same way every time, it will do the same thing everytime.

So the pool balls life on the table IS predetermined.

But of course Im not the one playing pool, God is.
He sent Jesus to die on the cross- 1 ball in side pocket
Isreal would become a nation again- 9 ball in corner pocket
Anti-christ will enter Isreal- 6 ball bank off the rail into corner pocket

Do you think God would allow you to take "kill" the 6 ball "Anti-christ" off the table, So that his plan would not be fullfilled.

No, Because "your are" the 3 ball in the other side pocket.

Meaning you dont have choice and neither does the rest of the balls on the table.

 

[joemaloy]

I have been trouble by this question of free will for a while.
And I have tried to figure it out by answering questions on a "correct" or "incorrect" statements, Like
God-Jesus is a Liar= incoreect
God-Jesus has to abide by his own rules= correct
God-Jesus is a hippocrite= incorrect

Which links to the queston, If God-Jesus "does not" have to abide by his own rules then he is a "hippocrite". = Correct statement.

One should be able to answer ANY question in the bible like this.
And if you cant then something is wrong with it.

 

[levi501]

Whether there is or isn't a god... freewill doesn't exist.
The pool ball analogy is a good one.

 

[Blackmarch]

Is life predetermined or do you have free will.
Considering that the bible has lots of things about prophecy.. ie"Life Predetermined"
Then you have the "Choice" of accepting Christ as you savior.
I cant see how you can have both.
Did Christ know from his birth that he was going to be Crucified, and if not when DID he know. or was Going on the cross a "plan B" sence the Jews didnt accept him.
He knew that Judas was going to betray him. -Predetermined-
At this Point Im leaning toward life being Predetermined.

Oh. And whatever you do, DONT come on here and say just have faith,cause to me thats just a copout.

It's interesting to note that many of the prophecies go something like this (not all, but quite a few); If the israelites harden their hearts and don't repent or etc.... then this <insert prophetic event/situation> will happen.

 

[_Orion]

Christian Theology and Free Will don't mix well for me...

How can I truly be free when I'm unable to choose alternatives. I *must* sin according to Christian Theology. I am not free to be sinless, but I'm supposedly held accountable for those sins...

Absurd.

 

[Blackmarch]

Christian Theology and Free Will don't mix well for me...

How can I truly be free when I'm unable to choose alternatives. I *must* sin according to Christian Theology. I am not free to be sinless, but I'm supposedly held accountable for those sins...

Absurd.

Depends on which sect(s)/denominations(s) you hold as being the "authentic" or "authority" of what is and is not considered Christian.

 

[_Orion]

Depends on which sect(s)/denominations(s) you hold as being the "authentic" or "authority" of what is and is not considered Christian.

Fair enough... I've been exposed to some versions of Christian Theology that aren't so bad...and others that are worse than I could have imagined.

 

[Blackmarch]

Fair enough... I've been exposed to some versions of Christian Theology that aren't so bad...and others that are worse than I could have imagined.

No kidding, you can take just about any kind of stance and you will be able to find a Christian group somewhere that takes a similar one. Though some are definitely more dominant than others.

 

[ServantofTheOne]

Muslims believe in Divine Decree or destiny. The concept of divine decree used in the Qur’an means a measure or the latent possibilities with which God created human beings and all things of nature.

When God created each thing, He determined when it would come into existence and when it would cease to exist. He also determined its qualities and nature. And everything in the universe, the seen and the unseen, is completely subject to the overriding power of God. Nothing can happen outside His Will.

As for human beings, they are not completely masters of their fates, nor are they puppets subject to the hazards of destiny. God gave humans limited power and great freedom, including the freedom of choice. That autonomy makes each individual accountable for his or her deeds.

We cannot know our future and, to a large extent, we cannot control it. But we can make decisions within the limits of what we can control, based on our understanding of the way the world works. If someone chooses to punch his fist into a brick wall, he cannot claim any injustice when it hurts. He knows that the wall exists and that it is hard. That is the reality — the “laws of nature” — he has to deal with. Yet the ultimate reality is that God could make the wall disappear just before one’s fist reaches it.

Just as God created nature and its laws, He made moral laws, and we cannot claim any injustice if we get punished for disobeying or ignoring those moral laws.

Only sincere prayers can change the way events unfold

The concept of destiny, therefore, indicates that we must seek harmony with God’s rules of human nature and nature at large, and consciously submit to His will. Destiny as conceived by Islam, therefore, does not take away our freedom of choice and action. It is our willful choice of those actions from our inherent possibilities that are in harmony with God’s will that earns us our reward from God.

Yet, when God set certain rules in His decree as to how things evolve, even these things can be changed through prayers. The Prophet(pbuh) stressed that only sincere prayers can change the way events unfold, and that true worship and sincere submission to Allah can raise the believer above the normal ways of nature. Prayers can and do result in “personal miracles” — events or experiences that we consider almost impossible and certainly highly improbable.

From an Islamic point of view, human beings are free for all practical purposes. A person has no excuse for making the wrong choice and then blaming destiny, any more than a man punching his fist into a wall can blame the laws of nature. He knew the consequences of his actions for all practical purposes and he shouldn’t expect a miracle!

We should not worry about what God has written for us, since we can never know it. But our duty is to strive for the best in this world and the next. Then, good results will follow, if God wills.

As for the question of whether humans are predestined to enter Paradise or Hell, we must remember that God transcends the limits of time. He is All-Knowing of the past, present and future. Thus He knows in advance which path — good or evil — each individual will choose and what will be his or her final destination — Paradise or Hell. But such knowledge does not mean that He makes each person choose a certain path.
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this was from an islamic website

 

[Lifesaver]

Free will and God's omniscience, meaning that everything that will ever happen, down to details, is known by God, are not incompatible at all.
Just as our observation of something in the present does not make it determined, God's knowledge of what is to happen does not determine it.

If I see a ball falling, then the ball is necessarily falling. But that doesn't mean somehting else couldn't have happened to it.
If God knows a ball will fall (and this fact is as present to His intellect as are current facts to ours), then it will necessarily fall. But that doesn't mean something else couldn't have happened (and of course, if such were the case, God's knowledge would be different as well).

 

[Socrastein]

It should be noted my argument has nothing to do with God, for God has no effect whatsoever on my argument. With or without a God, with or without omniscience, with or without a divine will, the logic of my argument still applies, and choices are still either causally determined or random.

 

[Angel4Truth]

I have a toddler , if I offer my child a plate of green beans or a plate of cookies , i know what she will choose , but it doesnt mean ive made her choice for her , she still makes the choice but because of my foreknowledge of children , i know what she will choose because of experience and because I am her mother .

God knowing what we will choose and how things will turn out , doesnt mean He makes our choices for us . That is why the bible says that God can turn all things to good for those who love Him . We still make the choices . Hes just seen it all and knows what we are going to do . He is in fact our Father .

 

[Gaston]

Problem is, A4T, the cookies cause death, and you know it.

 

[Spinrad]

Is life predetermined or do you have free will.
Considering that the bible has lots of things about prophecy.. ie"Life Predetermined"
Then you have the "Choice" of accepting Christ as you savior.
I cant see how you can have both.
Did Christ know from his birth that he was going to be Crucified, and if not when DID he know. or was Going on the cross a "plan B" sence the Jews didnt accept him.
He knew that Judas was going to betray him. -Predetermined-
At this Point Im leaning toward life being Predetermined.

Oh. And whatever you do, DONT come on here and say just have faith,cause to me thats just a copout.

Have faith.
COPOUT!


You are not the boss of me.

 

[Lokisdottir]

I have a toddler , if I offer my child a plate of green beans or a plate of cookies , i know what she will choose , but it doesnt mean ive made her choice for her , she still makes the choice but because of my foreknowledge of children , i know what she will choose because of experience and because I am her mother .

But would you offer a plate of cookies and a plate of healthy food every single time you serve your child a meal, and let them choose what they want? If so, I'd call your parenting skills into question.

 

[Angel4Truth]

But would you offer a plate of cookies and a plate of healthy food every single time you serve your child a meal, and let them choose what they want? If so, I'd call your parenting skills into question.

No , i wouldnt , and neither does God , He offers us exactly what we need and even came to us to give it right to us - but because of having will of our own , we can reject what He offers us in disobedience just like a child can disobey his/her mother and father .

God would only be at any kind of "fault" if He didnt let us know what was wrong and why it was wrong and life itself tells us everything we choose has a consequence and its results (good or bad) depend on what we have chosen . God even gave a meal plan to ensure good health

 

[joemaloy]

No one has said anything about how can there be Prophecy without life being predetermined.

Take the soldier the stabed the spear into Christs ribs, He went through his whole life to be there at that certian time and place to do that.

And what some are saying is that Christ dieing on the cross was a RANDOM event. Which any christian would know it was not.

Christs life was predetermmine so he would die for our sins and the soldiers life was predetermined so he could be the to put the spear in christs ribs.

Which statements that I have said so for that are incorrect.

 

[Lifesaver]

It should be noted my argument has nothing to do with God, for God has no effect whatsoever on my argument. With or without a God, with or without omniscience, with or without a divine will, the logic of my argument still applies, and choices are still either causally determined or random.

Yes, that's true; but your argument assumes beforehand that there is no such a thing as free will and then conclude it doesn't exist.

"the will is either determined or random". By allowing only those two options, you have denied the existence of free will. You believe that the two kinds of "causation" we observe in matter (deterministic or random) are the only possible kinds in all realms, including the metaphysical one. And to affirm any of those is to deny the will (or at least its freedom).
In fact, if we were make a complete list, we'd have: deterministic, random and voluntary, which is what free will is all about, and which your argument pressuposes not to exist, only to conclude it doesn't exist.