Free will?

[Reformationist]

I am unaware of Jesus having claimed to overcome sin, I need to be educated here. Please show me where it says this in scripture. You see my problem is I still see sin in the world.

The fact that the Lord's plan has not yet fully manifested doesn't mean that Christ is not currently seated at the right hand of the Father, reigning as King of kings. Just because you still see sin in this world doesn't mean that Jesus hasn't overcome it. At some point, according to whensoever the Lord has decreed, this world will be free of sin. That time has not yet come but Christ's sacrifice was eternally efficient and sin and death have been defeated by His atonement.

I myself am still a sinner, you obviously are not.

Give me a break. This is completely unnecessary. In your previous post you got all offended because I claimed that your understanding violates Scripture. Here you think being facetious is necessary. Bit hypocritical, don't you think?

Is Gods grace necessary to be obedient. No definently not !

The pharisees were clearly obedient in certain aspects of the law, where they under divine grace ???

Outward obedience is of no eternal value and, in actuality, is not truly obedience.

If the world is to end it must have a last day.

Geesh. "Heos sunteleia aion [even unto the end of the world]" isn't speaking of the end of this world. It's meant to signify God's everlasting companionship. It merely means that God has made us His and will be our Father forever and ever, without end.

God bless

 

[andy153]

Dear Reformationist,

Yes I believe this conversation is going downhill and nowhere fast. I am happy to debate with you and I am happy for you to disagree with me. However, I will not become embrioled in a name calling session.

The reason I said "you obviously are not" a sinner was refering to your belief that sin had been overcome therfore it cold not be in your life ??? It was not meant to be facetious at all. I am sorry if that is how it came across.

I do not violate scripture, if that is your opinion I would ask you to keep it to yourself. To violate means to rape and I do not wish to be falsely accused of such behaviour. Not only for my sake but for yours as well. Please feel free to stop communicating with me at any time if you believe this. Indeed you must.

I will not retaliate with like for like, neither do I asume the higher moral ground over you. I can assure you that I have no desire to convince or convert anyone to my beliefs, nor indeed to even bring any into agreement with me. I am not on a mission in this forum.

You use words like "Geesh", and "give me a break" as to imply that what I believe is beneath your contempt. No, I do not wish for you to start your your replies with "in my opinion" I enjoy debating with you because you have strong beliefs and a firm faith in the Lord.

I respect you as I love and respect all men. The fact that I think you are wrong in most areas of your belief is of no consequence. I acknowledge the goodness of your heart and accept you as a brother in Christ.

I am happy and willing to continue our debate on an open or closed forum.

However, I feel it is unwise to continue when you continue to say I rape scripture. I stand by what I have said in my previous posts, although not with your interpretation of them.

with love and respect, andy153

 

[Reformationist]

Yes I believe this conversation is going downhill and nowhere fast. I am happy to debate with you and I am happy for you to disagree with me. However, I will not become embrioled in a name calling session.

Name calling session?

The reason I said "you obviously are not" a sinner was refering to your belief that sin had been overcome therfore it cold not be in your life ??? It was not meant to be facetious at all. I am sorry if that is how it came across.

I never said that sin was eradicated. I said it was overcome. There is a difference.

I do not violate scripture, if that is your opinion I would ask you to keep it to yourself. To violate means to rape and I do not wish to be falsely accused of such behaviour.

violate:
1 : [size=-1]BREAK[/size], [size=-1]DISREGARD[/size] <violate the law>
2 : to do harm to the person or especially the chastity of; specifically : [size=-1]RAPE[/size]
3 : to fail to show proper respect for : [size=-1]PROFANE[/size] <violate a shrine>
4 : [size=-1]INTERRUPT[/size], [size=-1]DISTURB[/size] <violate the peace of a spring evening

These are the definitions of violate and of those you feel that the one I was using was "rape?" It seems that you are seeing what you want to see. Don't you think that it's possible that I meant "violate" in a different way?

However, I feel it is unwise to continue when you continue to say I rape scripture. I stand by what I have said in my previous posts, although not with your interpretation of them.

with love and respect, andy153

Andy, if you are going to take the most offensive meaning of a word that there is and ASSUME that that is what I meant then it is better if you and I forego continuing. I may, at some point, use a word that has multiple meanings and though a particular definition may not suit the context you may take it that way and become even more offended. I have no desire for that to happen.

I pray that the Lord's blessings be upon you and those you love for all times,

God bless

 

[Telrunya]

Just so I'm clear, are you contending that man's will is inherently free and has no need of divine grace to incline itself towards things pertaining to eternal life?

Also, just for your future reference, the scripting for this MB's format encloses tags in brackets, i.e., [ and ], rather than the usual < and >.

God bless

Sorry it took me so long to get back here. I've been a busy busy boy. BTW Thanks for the tip.

Not to answer your question. Yes I believe God created us with a will that is inherently free. I'm not sure that I can go along with the rest of it though. We are under a curse from God. This is a fallen world and EVERY man woman and child are sinners and thus cannot attain eternal life on our own. I do believe that our free will enables us to accept the devine grace given us. Our free will enables us to choose to follow Christ. Are you asking if any can do this without being convicted by the Holy Spirit to come to God and that we need forgiveness?