Free will?

[Reformationist]

I am reading a very interesting book by Dr. Martin Luther called The Bondage Of The Will. For those of you who have not read this book it is a refutation of the Diatribe by Erasmus of Rotterdam on the issue of "free will." Anyway, it got me wondering about this term, "free will," that is so casually thrown around in Christian circles. So, I have come to ask a question of those who support the view that man has "free will" in an effort to understand what, exactly, you mean when you put forth this idea.

Would those of you who are protagonists for the case of free will please explain to me what you mean when you use this term?

Thank you,
God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Anyone? Beuller? Anyone?

 

[SoulFly51]

I'm not a protagonist for either case, but I believe man has the ability to make his own choices.

 

[Reformationist]

I'm not a protagonist for either case, but I believe man has the ability to make his own choices.

Umm...okay. What are the "cases" that you are talking about when you say "either case?"

Also, I'm not denying that man is a volitional and rational creature. He was created that way. I'm just asking what people mean when they say they believe man has "free will."

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Asaph]

Also, I'm not denying that man is a volitional and rational creature. He was created that way. I'm just asking what people mean when they say they believe man has "free will."

Thanks,
God bless

I'm not so sure I can even agree that man was created as a volitional creature. Prior to sin entering through Adam, what need would there have been for volition? I'm beginning to think that Adam's true chargable offense was that he created "freewill" when he ate from the tree. He set himself above God and in the process brought the "knowledge of good and evil" into creation.

But you stated that you wished to hear from those of an arminian persuasion. Sorry, I'll try to restrain myself!

 

[Reformationist]

I'm not so sure I can even agree that man was created as a volitional creature. Prior to sin entering through Adam, what need would there have been for volition? I'm beginning to think that Adam's true chargable offense was that he created "freewill" when he ate from the tree. He set himself above God and in the process brought the "knowledge of good and evil" into creation.

Volition is merely the power of choosing or determining. Man had to have been created with this power or God could not hold him accountable for his choice to disobey. In fact, his very act of choosing to disobey shows his volitional nature. The choice to disobey God and eat of the fruit was most certainly a volitional choice. It wasn't as if Adam ate of the fruit by reflex. If Adam ate of the fruit and, in the process set himself above God, then it's because he chose to do so. The issue at hand is the morality of Adam's choice. If his choice to eat of the fruit had no moral ramifications then man would not have fallen and inherited a sinful nature.

But you stated that you wished to hear from those of an arminian persuasion. Sorry, I'll try to restrain myself!

LOL! Well, I'm more than willing, and hope to, hear comments from those who discount the idea that man's will is free but I first want to know what it is that is meant by those who use that phrase.

If it will help, I'll give my own definition. I would say that free will is simply man's ability to choose according to that which he most desires when faced with a moral decision. Free will, as I define it, does not speak to the issue of the scope of man's choices but rather that which determines what he does choose. Arminians who use this term seem to use it to mean that their choice is autonomous, that is, that there is no determinitive factor whatsoever which induces them to choose one way or the other. This, of course, begs the question of why they choose the way they do but I'll leave that for later.

God bless

 

[BInC]

Lol, lots of big words floatin around. My definition of free will is our ability to decide for good or evil. I believe it does come directly from eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I think free will is necessary as part of the plan of salvation. If we don't have free will, then we have no control over whether or not we are saved. However, even though we have free will, certain things must happen. For example, Judas had free will, but Jesus had to be betrayed. I don't know if it had to be Judas or not, but someone had to do it. Also, no man may add a single hour to his life. I think the bible says that the time of our death is not affected by free will. A book I read a long time ago suggested the idea of a balance between free will and prophecy, like certain things in prophecy must come true but other things are left up to free will. Like there are certain places we have to be at certain times, but the path we take to get there is our choice. That is kind of how I see free will, somthing that balances destiny instead of disproving it.

 

[Telrunya]

I love the way one of the contributors to Lee Stroble's book "A Case for Faith" put it. I wish I had the book here so I could quote it directly and give you the guy's name but basiclly it going like this: We have free will because love without a choice has no meaning. Why did God bother to create us if not to worship him? What meaning would that worship have if it wasn't a concious choice to do so. It would be worhtless and have no meaning at all. The problem with alot of people is they can't picture predestination and free will co-existing but they do. God is all knowing. He knew us before he formed us in our mother's womb and he knew what sins we would commit during our lives and he paid for those sins on the Cross. That doesn't absolve us of our responsibility of making the right choices in life though. Last winter I was driving down the highway at 25 mph because of all the ice on the road. I saw this four wheel drive blazer come to the on ramp speeding up as he went so that he could get onto the highway in front of me. I also saw the black ice on the road where the onramp met the highway. I knew this guy was going to be going for a ride if he didn't slow down. I knew he wouldn't though so I slowed down. He kept on speeding up and hit the ice at 45 mph and went flying across the highway into a ditch. I stopped to make sure he was ok and he toldme he hadn't seen the ice. Now thats a really simplistic analogy but God knew before we were born that we would choose to speed up when we should slow down. He gave us all the signs telling us to slow down,even though he knew we wouldn't. It's still our choice to sin though. When we have a choice between sinning and loving Him and we choose to love Him then that has meaning. I hope this helps.

 

[Reformationist]

My definition of free will is our ability to decide for good or evil.

And do you think that man, after the Fall, retained power to will equally either for good or evil? That is, is the ability to choose irrespective of influence, inherent to man's fallen nature?

I think free will is necessary as part of the plan of salvation. If we don't have free will, then we have no control over whether or not we are saved.

Uh huh. I see. And "having control over whether or not we are saved" is something you think the Bible not only professes we have but that we are, inherently, fully capable of willing things that lead to salvation?

However, even though we have free will, certain things must happen. For example, Judas had free will, but Jesus had to be betrayed. I don't know if it had to be Judas or not, but someone had to do it. Also, no man may add a single hour to his life. I think the bible says that the time of our death is not affected by free will. A book I read a long time ago suggested the idea of a balance between free will and prophecy, like certain things in prophecy must come true but other things are left up to free will. Like there are certain places we have to be at certain times, but the path we take to get there is our choice. That is kind of how I see free will, somthing that balances destiny instead of disproving it.

In this book I'm reading Luther makes a distinction between having "free will" over things that are "below us" but being impotent with regard to things that are "above us." Things "below us" would include the things that we can control, like what we eat, what we name our dog, etc. Things above us, which Luther intimates that man is completely passive in regards to, include salvation.

Now, you seem to be saying that salvation is one of those things that man is able to be in control of by the power of his "free will." Is his ability to control this something that he is capable apart from the grace of God or is the grace of God necessary for him to play any part in it?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Reformationist]

I love the way one of the contributors to Lee Stroble's book "A Case for Faith" put it. I wish I had the book here so I could quote it directly and give you the guy's name but basiclly it going like this: We have free will because love without a choice has no meaning. Why did God bother to create us if not to worship him? What meaning would that worship have if it wasn't a concious choice to do so. It would be worhtless and have no meaning at all. The problem with alot of people is they can't picture predestination and free will co-existing but they do. God is all knowing. He knew us before he formed us in our mother's womb and he knew what sins we would commit during our lives and he paid for those sins on the Cross. That doesn't absolve us of our responsibility of making the right choices in life though. Last winter I was driving down the highway at 25 mph because of all the ice on the road. I saw this four wheel drive blazer come to the on ramp speeding up as he went so that he could get onto the highway in front of me. I also saw the black ice on the road where the onramp met the highway. I knew this guy was going to be going for a ride if he didn't slow down. I knew he wouldn't though so I slowed down. He kept on speeding up and hit the ice at 45 mph and went flying across the highway into a ditch. I stopped to make sure he was ok and he toldme he hadn't seen the ice. Now thats a really simplistic analogy but God knew before we were born that we would choose to speed up when we should slow down. He gave us all the signs telling us to slow down,even though he knew we wouldn't. It's still our choice to sin though. When we have a choice between sinning and loving Him and we choose to love Him then that has meaning. I hope this helps.

Telrunya, first let me say thank you for responding. As much as I would like to, I am not, at this point, quite ready to debate whether free will is a valid biblical principle. I am currently just trying to determine the way in which people use the term "free will" and what power they ascribe to it.

Would you care to define free will, as you use the term, and tell me what power free will has? An example of an appropriate answer to my question would be, "The will of man is completely free to choose either for evil or good and this power is inherent to him and the grace of God, while helpful, is not necessary for man to will good."

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Telrunya]

<quote>"The will of man is completely free to choose either for evil or good and this power is inherent to him and the grace of God, while helpful, is not necessary for man to will good."</quote>


I would accept the above statement as an axiom.

 

[Reformationist]

I would accept the above statement as an axiom.

Just so I'm clear, are you contending that man's will is inherently free and has no need of divine grace to incline itself towards things pertaining to eternal life?

Also, just for your future reference, the scripting for this MB's format encloses tags in brackets, i.e., [ and ], rather than the usual < and >.

God bless

 

[mcvicarl]

well, i heard the fall of adam the beginning of law. you know how we're meant to be under grace? well, when God created adam and eve they did not know sin and therefore didnt even think of something wrong. they had a perfect relationship with god and everything was sweet. however when adam and eve were led into temptation by the devil to eat the fruit of knowledge of good and evil they got an understanding of good and evil. they knew what gods standard was but they also knew about the bad stuff as well. hence the beginning of law, from then on we knew better than to sin and im not very good with my scriptural refernces but the egyption ppl asked for the laws and thought they could keep them by their own strength. so god gave them 10 commandmetns and a stack of other laws which they couldnt keep and hence the need for a saviour. it was never meant to be by our strength.

ok, i may be getting off topic, but god has a plan for our lives, he'll try to get us to do that, bring people across our paths and he knows every mistake that we'll make but we have to make the discision to follow him. umm... im confusing myself but i belive in prophesy, but prophesy always seems to be the option of what you can fulfil if you trust in god or whats going to happen. jesus had to trust in god for what was going to be his future, i have to trust in god to find mine but prophesy uplifts, encourages and convicts us. i remember when i was in sin and i got prophesied over and the guy told me that god had told him i was in sin and he practically named the sin and then said that i had alot of calling on my life and that i was going to come to a choice i'd have to make soon. i could go with it or against it. am i making sense?

 

[Reformationist]

well, i heard the fall of adam the beginning of law. you know how we're meant to be under grace? well, when god created adam adn eve they did not know sin and therefore didnt even think of somehting wrong. they had a perfect relationship with god and everything was sweet. however when adam and eve were led into temptation by the devil to eat the fruit of knowledge of good and evil they got an understanding of good and evil. they knew what gods stndard was but they also knew about the bad stuff as well. hence the beginning of law, from then on we knew better than to sin and im not very good with my scriptural refernces but the egyptioon ppl asked for the laws and thought thwey could keep them by their own strength. so god gave them 10 commandmetns and a stack of other laws which they couldnt keep and hence the need for a saviour. it was never meant to be by our strength.

ok, i may be getting off topic, but god has a plan for our lives, he'll try to get us to do that, bring people across our paths and he knows every mistake that we'll make but we have to make the discisiont o follow him. umm... im confusing myself but i belive in prophesy, but prophesy always seems to be the option of what you can fulfil if you trust in god or whats going ot happen. jesus had to trust in god for whatg was going to be his future, i have to trust in god to find mine but prophesy uplifts, encourages and convicts us. i remember when i was in sin and i got prophesied ov erand te guy told me that god ahd told him i was in sin and he practically named the sin and then said that i had a alot of calling on my life and that i was going to come to a a choice i'd have ot make soon. i could go with ot or againsty it. am i making sense?

Ummm....So what do you think free will is? I'm not really sure what what your answer was to that question.

Additionally, I have two words for you, and I mean this in kindness, SPELL CHECK. Your posts are very difficult to read because of the inordinate amount of spelling/typographical errors.

It sounds like you might have something interesting to say but I'm having a hard time deciphering what you mean because of the typos.

God bless

 

[inHisgrip]

I have always thought of free will as our ability to choose. God gave us this seed so that we could make choices, whether it be to do good or evil, to love or not to love, ect..
I believe we were created with free will(choice), not something that came after the fall.
Free will is Gods gift to us.
By having this choice we have the ability to love, which is what it is all about, without this choice, there is no love.
Does this make any sense??
In Him

 

[Reformationist]

I have always thought of free will as our ability to choose. God gave us this seed so that we could make choices, whether it be to do good or evil, to love or not to love, ect..
I believe we were created with free will(choice), not something that came after the fall.
Free will is Gods gift to us.
By having this choice we have the ability to love, which is what it is all about, without this choice, there is no love.
Does this make any sense??
In Him

Hi inHisgrip. So, free will is the ability to make choices, and this ability includes the inherent ability to make good choices as well as evil choices? Am I right in understanding that you believe that man did not lose any portion of this liberty when he fell from grace? Do you believe that the grace of God is necessary for man to be able to choose to be obedient to Him?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[fiveinjuly]

I think that we have our own will to choose. That's all ai have to say abou that.

 

[inHisgrip]

I believe that the Lord gave us the ability to choose whether we would fall or not, that is free will. I believe that we are saved by His grace.
By "losing any portion of this liberty"? are you asking if at the fall we lost the ability to make choices? If that is the question, no, I don't think we lost this ability. (I am sure you make choices and excercise your free will everyday).
I think that salvation is necessary to be obedient to Him, and His grace is what saves us.
IMHO
In Him

 

[Flynmonkie]

Free Will or Free Agency -Freedom of self determination and action independent of external causes

 

[ZealouS]

Proverbs 16
9 In his heart a man plans his course,
but the LORD determines his steps.

I think a man makes major decisions in life. To persue Good or Evil, to serve God or serve yourself ect. Once you have made your decision, God determines what experiences you have. So in your heart you can say "I am going to be this or that" but God will determine the steps that get you there. If God has other plans for you, other than the course you selected, he will lead your steps off that course and onto a new one.