Free Will with God: An Illusion

[MoonlessNight]

A) God is the Creator of Everything
B) God knows everything (omniscience)
C) A and B prove that God creates you and your choices for your whole life, and that God knows ahead of time those choices. You are not doing any choosing because God made you with those choices.

Explanation needed: If God Creates everything, that would mean he creates you, and everything you will ever know, and everything you do. You are basically one of those wind-up toys that goes about doing stuff after it is finished being cranked. God, because he Created all, knows if you are given "choices" of left, right, up or down. Because God is omniscient, he knows that out of those choices, you are going left. Do you choose left? Not really. Why? Because you could not go right, up or down. It was not your decision, because it was known prior to you even having to "decide". There only is one path you can take; the one that God already knows.

You missed your third necessary premise to reach this conclusion, and that is this: Our choices are entirely determined by our starting conditions. If this is not true then we are not "wind-up toys" and as such the way that God creates us cannot accurately be said to be a direct cause of our choices. God may know everything that we will do, certainly, and he may know that in different circumstances we might do other things, but unless our choices are completely determined by our makeup, the way we are made up cannot be the only cause of our actions.

In sort to make the argument this way you need to assume that our will is completely controlled by our circumstances and thus not free anyway. I'm sorry, but you are just begging the question.

I know that you will say "but God knows what we will do, we cannot choose otherwise." But God knows everything that will happen because he has observed it, not because he causes it or even necessarily because he knows that such things are inevitable. Saying that God knows what will happen only means that our actions are limited to what we actually will do. In sort, what will happen will happen. I'd be scared of any system that didn't admit that what will happen will happen.

 

[Amoranemix]

I don't see how foreknowledge changes anything if someone has the ability to chose between different options.

Then we have something in common : I don’t see that either. But you are being evasive : you didn’t answer on my objection.

I am backing it up as well as you are backing up that just foreknowing what someone is going to chose results in their not have a choice.

You are giving an opinion as if it was derived through reasoning. I usually state my opinion as such or try to back it up. If you think I should provide some explanation for some of my statements then please point out which ones.

God may know everything that we will do, certainly, and he may know that in different circumstances we might do other things, but unless our choices are completely determined by our makeup, the way we are made up cannot be the only cause of our actions.

This is overlapping with the thread ‘The free will of God’, but if God knows everything about our future, we are deterministic.

I know that you will say "but God knows what we will do, we cannot choose otherwise." But God knows everything that will happen because he has observed it, not because he causes it or even necessarily because he knows that such things are inevitable. Saying that God knows what will happen only means that our actions are limited to what we actually will do. In sort, what will happen will happen. I'd be scared of any system that didn't admit that what will happen will happen.

I have come to the conclusion in that other thread that indeed as people keep stressing God’s knowledge by itself doesn’t cause anything, but that it indicates that the universe is deterministic. Thus the starting conditions (created by God) determine what we will do and what will happen to us.

 

[elman]

Then we have something in common : I don’t see that either. But you are being evasive : you didn’t answer on my objection.

You are giving an opinion as if it was derived through reasoning. I usually state my opinion as such or try to back it up. If you think I should provide some explanation for some of my statements then please point out which ones.

This is overlapping with the thread ‘The free will of God’, but if God knows everything about our future, we are deterministic.

I have come to the conclusion in that other thread that indeed as people keep stressing God’s knowledge by itself doesn’t cause anything, but that it indicates that the universe is deterministic. Thus the starting conditions (created by God) determine what we will do and what will happen to us.

Why would you assume God is unable to create us with free will?and why do you assume that God having given us free will has taken it aways again simply by knowing what choices we are going to make? That is just not logical.

 

[Lucretius]

If God knows what you are going to do ahead of time, then you have no choice but to do it. You could say you are making that choice, but what other choice did you have if God already knew what you were going to do. You would argue that you actually chose it in the present while God knew it because he is timeless, but this doesn't make much sense at all.

 

[elman]

If God knows what you are going to do ahead of time, then you have no choice but to do it. You could say you are making that choice, but what other choice did you have if God already knew what you were going to do. You would argue that you actually chose it in the present while God knew it because he is timeless, but this doesn't make much sense at all.

If God gave us the ability to make a choice then His knowing what we are going to chose does not result in there being no choice. The other choices I had were numerous and God did not cause me to make the choice I did by His foreknowledge. Whatever choice I would have made is the one He knew so the the cause of the choice I made is not Him but me. It is a true choice. I do have free will. And God has foreknowledge at the same time. One does not effect the other.

 

[Simonline]

I’ll try to make this as simple as possible.

A) God is the Creator of Everything
B) God knows everything (omniscience)
C) A and B prove that God creates you and your choices for your whole life, and that God knows ahead of time those choices. You are not doing any choosing because God made you with those choices.

Explanation needed: If God Creates everything, that would mean he creates you, and everything you will ever know, and everything you do. You are basically one of those wind-up toys that goes about doing stuff after it is finished being cranked. God, because he Created all, knows if you are given "choices" of left, right, up or down. Because God is omniscient, he knows that out of those choices, you are going left. Do you choose left? Not really. Why? Because you could not go right, up or down. It was not your decision, because it was known prior to you even having to "decide". There only is one path you can take; the one that God already knows.

E) If God did not make choices for you he would contradict his attributes A and B.
D) Free will states that God only gives people choices, but it is still theirs to do the choosing.
E) Choices are not for humans to make, because God, as shown in C, knows the answers, and made you with your choices. Humans do not make the choices as demonstrated in D.
F) Free will logically contradicts the idea of a God as given in A and B.
G) Free will cannot logically exist; it is an illusion.

Your entire argument is based upon the false premise that prior knowledge of a choice negates the choice. Only the prior knowledge is God's, the choice is mine and as such it is still free. Effectively, God's prior knowledge of my choice is irrelevent to the choice which I actually make (since I am not privy to God's fore-knowledge). Therefore, it might as well be that God is completely ignorant of my choices for all the difference it makes to the actual choices I make. Furthermore the freedom of my choice is not adversely affected by decreasing the number of options between which I could choose. In other words, it is not true that my ability to choose is only valid when I have an infinite number of options between which to choose.

In short God's predestination (based as it is upon his fore-knowledge) is not either cast in stone or set in concrete long before we're ever born. It's much more 'fluid' than that

Simonline.

 

[Amoranemix]

Why would you assume God is unable to create us with free will?

I don’t know. Perhaps because it could lead to interesting conclusions. Why would you make that assumption ?

and why do you assume that God having given us free will has taken it aways again simply by knowing what choices we are going to make? That is just not logical.

I don’t assume God has given us free will and taken it away again.
My assumptions were :
A)[font=&quot] [/font]Someone who is deterministic has no free will.
B) God made the universe deterministic.
Hence we have no free will.
I obviously disagree with assumption B, because I don’t believe in God. Christians though seem to agree with that assumption. Assumption A imposes a limiting definition on free will. Does anyone have a better definition ?

Only the prior knowledge is God's, the choice is mine and as such it is still free.

There may be more to it than that. God seems to have made a lot of choices as well. He may not just know everything about the universe, but have designed it the way he wanted to, including our lives, in which case I think our free will would be fake. Considering how deplorable the universe is, it is perhaps not foolish to think that he did not intended it that way. But of course that would rule out God being omnipotent and omniwise.
Since people keep squabbling over a badly understood concept, I call the Britannica to the stand : free will :
in humans, the power or capacity to choose among alternatives or to act in certain situations independently of natural, social, or divine restraints. Free will is denied by those who espouse any of various forms of determinism. Arguments for free will are based on the subjective experience of freedom, on sentiments of guilt, on revealed religion, and on the universal supposition of responsibility for personal actions that underlies the concepts of law, reward, punishment, and incentive. In theology, the existence of free will must be reconciled with God's omniscience and goodness (in allowing man to choose badly), and with divine grace, which allegedly is necessary for any meritorious act. A prominent feature of modern Existentialism is the concept of a radical, perpetual, and frequently agonizing freedom of choice. Jean-Paul Sartre, for example, speaks of the individual “condemned to be free” even though his situation may be wholly determined.

[font=&quot]PS : Is there a single word that describes ‘being infinitely intelligent and knowing everything’ ?[/font]

 

[WhenFinallySetFree777]

God never forces what someone will do. If that were the case:

A: Everyone would believe in Him.
B: We would still be in perfect paradise - well, maybe not. Look below.
C: Going along with everyone believing in Him, that universal belief would pretty well be spiritual and psychological rape, since we wouldn't be able to choose - something a perfect, loving God wouldn't allow. Not my idea of paradise. I think that the people that seem to live just to discredit God no matter the situation is a pretty good picture of free will.
D: Even though God creates our circumstances, and He does know everything we will do, he still does not make that choice for us. We can refuse the Holy Spirit, we can refuse what God wants us to do. We can do things that, if God chose, He would not have us do, though it won't run His will off the train tracks. He can still be Sovereign even if we don't obey Him all the time. But still, we do things He would rather not have us do. He can influence, but ultimately, won't force us to do anything - a.k.a., no divine restraint. Influence sure, but not restraint. A psychic that correctly predicts every aspect of a of a bank robbery - objects/amounts stolen, escape route, whatever - still has no bearing on the choice of the culprits regarding these aspects of the robbery. Complete knowledge does not equal complete control.

 

[Amoranemix]

God never forces what someone will do. If that were the case:

A: Everyone would believe in Him.

Why is that ? Your conclusion seems to rely on the following premise and implication :
1)God wants everyone to believe in him
2)If God forces someone what do do he always forces everyone what to do.

C) Going along with everyone believing in Him, that universal belief would pretty well be spiritual and psychological rape, since we wouldn't be able to choose - something a perfect, loving God wouldn't allow.

Perhaps God is not perfect and loving. He also could have almost everyone believe in him without forcing that through our throats.

[font=&quot]

SetFree777]D: Even though God creates our circumstances, and He does know everything we will do, he still does not make that choice for us.

You don’t know that.

 

[tcampen]

If a future choice is pre-known with absolute certainty by some other being, then that person making the choice is powerless to do anything BUT make the choice that is already known. Such a condition necessarily negates free will."

The person making the choice is not powerless, but the one making the choice. Whatever choice he makes is the one that is foreknown, therefore he has free will, it is not negated by the foreknowledge. The foreknowledg is not only of what the choice will be, but also that it will be by the choice of the person chosing. As long as the person with the foreknowledge is not making the choice, the foreknowledge has nothing to do with the existence of free will on the part of the one making the choice.

With this logic, please explain how the person making a choice that is already known has the power to make a different choice? You see, just because the "chooser" is unaware of what his ultimate choice will be, does not mean he has free will to choose otherwise.

Free Will requires that at a some point, the choice is unknown - by ANY BEING - otherwise one's free will is simply an illusion.

 

[joemaloy]

Lets say you "decided" to take a road trip. You are going down the road and you are taking lefts here, rights there, now you get to an intersection that you "KNOW" that you could take a left or right and even go straight to get to your destination. And you decided to go straight and you get to your destination. Now you see the desicions of left,right,straight as varibles and this is why people feel they have choice.

BUT, God ONLY seen and knew that you was going to go straight, He didnt see left or right. He only seen the path that you ARE going to take. NOT maybe going to take. Far as he is concerned there was NO intersection.

God and FREE WILL are incompatible.

 

[tcampen]

Lets say you "decided" to take a road trip. You are going down the road and you are taking lefts here, rights there, now you get to an intersection that you "KNOW" that you could take a left or right and even go straight to get to your destination. And you decided to go straight and you get to your destination. Now you see the desicions of left,right,straight as varibles and this is why people feel they have choice.

BUT, God ONLY seen and knew that you was going to go straight, He didnt see left or right. He only seen the path that you ARE going to take. NOT maybe going to take. Far as he is concerned there was NO intersection.

God and FREE WILL are incompatible.

By saying that "God ONLY seen and knew that you was going to go straight" you are severely limiting God's ability and knowledge. The whole point of this discussion is on the premise that God is omnipotent and omniscient. To somehow conclude God did not, or could not, see the options make God less capable than you or me.

An omnipotent god must necessarily, by definition, know the possibilities and every potential choice - period.

I'm sorry, but the analogy, and therefore the argument, simply does not hold up.

 

[levi501]

If god was the first cause(creator of the universe) then he triggered the chain of events that lead to you making the whimsical decision to go straight. Therefor not only did he know you were going to go straight, but he is ultimately the cause for you choosing to do so. Freewill, with or without God is incompatible because every event in life has a cause that has a cause and so on infinitely or until we come to the first cause. If the first cause is God, then he's ultimately at fault for all your decisions.. even the sinful ones.

So a better topic would be...

A loving God and the existance of hell: An illusion.