Free will vs Determinism and religion

Fortunecookie · Oct 4, 2014

First of all I want to say that I am extremely inexperienced regarding faith and theology. And I do not mean this thread provactive in any way.

If G-d is all knowing and thus knows the future does this mean that the future is already determined. And if that is the case how could the L-rd then punish people for their lives if the script has already been written for their lives.

How can there be free will if G-d is all knowing? And if there is free will and freedom of choice, does that then must mean that G-d is not all knowing?

Maybe by asking this question I am seeing what G-d is completely wrong by personifying him as an individual.

Any input that can shed some light on this will be very much appreciated

Thank you,

Fortunecookie

Chesterton · Oct 4, 2014

Fortunecookie said:
If G-d is all knowing and thus knows the future does this mean that the future is already determined.

No. God exists outside of time. He just sees you making choices in the past, present and future. Like if you read a novel, then re-read it later, you know what the character is going to do, but you didn't make the character do it.

Davian · Oct 4, 2014

Chesterton said:
No. God exists outside of time. He just sees you making choices in the past, present and future. Like if you read a novel, then re-read it later, you know what the character is going to do, but you didn't make the character do it.

Where is "outside of time"?

Can God make a choice?

Chesterton · Oct 4, 2014

Davian said:
Where is "outside of time"?

Can God make a choice?

Outside of spacetime, so it's not a place. Yes, I think God can make a choice.

lesliedellow · Oct 4, 2014

When it comes to the free will part of it, your choices are never undetermined, although the factors which lead to the decision you make are likely to be hugely complicated. They will be a mixture of internal and external factors, such as temperament on the one hand, and whether your boss would put up with it on the other hand.

The thing is, as both creator of you and your personality, as well as the circumstances you find yourself in, God can predict with 100% accuracy what you will do, and he will also have effectively predetermined your choice. And yet, it will still have been your choice, with nobody holding a gun to your head, and so you will be responsible for it.

Fortunecookie · Oct 4, 2014

lesliedellow said:
When it comes to the free will part of it, your choices are never undetermined, although the factors which lead to the decision you make are likely to be hugely complicated. They will be a mixture of internal and external factors, such as temperament on the one hand, and whether your boss would put up with it on the other hand.

The thing is, as both creator of you and your personality, as well as the circumstances you find yourself in, God can predict with 100% accuracy what you will do, and he will also have effectively predetermined your choice. And yet, it will still have been your choice, with nobody holding a gun to your head, and so you will be responsible for it.

But if he made a person and that person is born his whole life script is already there. So how can G-d punish sinners then if he already decided that they would sin?

Chesterton · Oct 4, 2014

lesliedellow said:
...your choices are never undetermined, although the factors which lead to the decision you make...

...and he will also have effectively predetermined your choice. And yet, it will still have been your choice,...

Orwellian doublespeak. Flat out contradictions.

PsychoSarah · Oct 4, 2014

Chesterton said:
No. God exists outside of time. He just sees you making choices in the past, present and future. Like if you read a novel, then re-read it later, you know what the character is going to do, but you didn't make the character do it.

Time is conceptualized movement over distance in succession. A being outside of time cannot interact with anything which is influenced by time. A better idea would be to consider that god can control time and, thanks to its omnipresence, experience events before they happen from the perspective of beings such as us which experience events in succession, thus knowing the future.

Chesterton · Oct 4, 2014

PsychoSarah said:
Time is conceptualized movement over distance in succession.

Time is an actual dimension, as real as length and width (if they're real).

A being outside of time cannot interact with anything which is influenced by time.

Why not?

A better idea would be to consider that god can control time and, thanks to its omnipresence, experience events before they happen from the perspective of beings such as us which experience events in succession, thus knowing the future.

You said He can't interact with us, then say He can experience events from our perspective - how does He "put himself in our shoes" if He can't interact?

PsychoSarah · Oct 4, 2014

Chesterton said:
Time is an actual dimension, as real as length and width (if they're real).

Why not?

You said He can't interact with us, then say He can experience events from our perspective - how does He "put himself in our shoes" if He can't interact?

The physics of time is much debated, both your definition and mine are about equal, and of course they have different implications. My post thus won't make sense in the context of how you view time, so it would be best not to try to view my post in that context, least there be confusion.

Again, this will only make sense in how I view time and not you. From how I interpret time, a being outside of time cannot move in respects to beings that are in time (no regulation of movement equates to highly randomized motion that would make interaction essentially impossible, and certainly would make any interaction uncontrolled and unintentional).

My second point was an alternative, and was not stating that god was outside of time at all. A being could most certainly have the physics of time continually apply to it and simply be able to move about time at will. Combined with omnipresence, which is essentially being everywhere at once, this would allow said deity to also be any time at once. Such a being would be constantly experiencing any event that ever happens all at once; I would not envy it.

Chany · Oct 4, 2014

Fortunecookie said:
But if he made a person and that person is born his whole life script is already there. So how can G-d punish sinners then if he already decided that they would sin?

Well, technically, he still can. It would be within his power.

However, from a moral perspective, he can't. Unless God is less loving and understanding than the average human being, punishing a predestined human being for doing exactly what they were predestined to do is immoral. This is especially true when the thing punishing the person is the same thing that designed the person in the first place.

Welcome to the first realization I came to that led me to reject Christianity.

PsychoSarah · Oct 4, 2014

Chany said:
Well, technically, he still can. It would be within his power.

However, from a moral perspective, he can't. Unless God is less loving and understanding than the average human being, punishing a predestined human being for doing exactly what they were predestined to do is immoral. This is especially true when the thing punishing the person is the same thing that designed the person in the first place.

Welcome to the first realization I came to that led me to reject Christianity.

You can reconcile it though I suppose if you consider god to know all POSSIBLE futures rather than exactly what will happen, though that doesn't work in terms of determinism, and it would be debatable whether or not such a deity would really be omniscient

Davian · Oct 5, 2014

Chesterton said:
Outside of spacetime, so it's not a place. Yes, I think God can make a choice.

So your god is not in a place? Where is that again?

As for making a choice, does that not have a temporal component? How can it be both timeless and temporal? Is it a choice if you already know what choice was made?

I have to ask, are you just making this up as you go along?

lesliedellow · Oct 5, 2014

Chesterton said:
Orwellian doublespeak. Flat out contradictions.

Never undetermined means always determined. Maybe you need a dictionary.

lesliedellow · Oct 5, 2014

Fortunecookie said:
But if he made a person and that person is born his whole life script is already there. So how can G-d punish sinners then if he already decided that they would sin?

God punishes sin because it involves disobedience to his stated will.

What you are really having trouble with is the nature of free will, because that represents a philosophical conundrum even if you take God out of the picture.

If your actions are determined by a combination of your psychological state and various external factors, then you are likely to say that your actions are not free, because X, Y and Z made you do them. On the other hand, if nothing determines them, they are random, and you would then be acting in a completely irrational manner - probably making yourself a candidate for the lunatic asylum.

yeshuaslavejeff · Oct 5, 2014

Fortunecookie said:
......
Any input that can shed some light on this will be very much appreciated... ...

maybe

Torah(your Scripture) shows clearly that Yhvh foreknew and foretold Israels events throughout the history of Israel.
Even when disaster/judgment (like judgment for 'fortune seekers'(forbidden by Yhvh) was foretold,
and those who did not turn to Yhvh were then punished,
yet many times those who did turn to Yhvh were blessed and saved --
--- in other words , whosoever sought Yhvh , turning away from their life of fortune seeking, idolatry, selfishness, sin and rebellion, found Him and were blessed by Him.
at the exact same time(s), whosever DID NOT SEEK YHVH, remained dead.

"choose" .... choose.... pick one or the other for yourself .... life or death.

Colter · Oct 5, 2014

Fortunecookie said:
First of all I want to say that I am extremely inexperienced regarding faith and theology. And I do not mean this thread provactive in any way.

If G-d is all knowing and thus knows the future does this mean that the future is already determined. And if that is the case how could the L-rd then punish people for their lives if the script has already been written for their lives.

How can there be free will if G-d is all knowing? And if there is free will and freedom of choice, does that then must mean that G-d is not all knowing?

Maybe by asking this question I am seeing what G-d is completely wrong by personifying him as an individual.

Any input that can shed some light on this will be very much appreciated

Thank you,

Fortunecookie

God is a generic term not a proper name. As others here have explained God is everywhere and everywhen.

God has a plan, a purpose for creation, mans participation is a matter of choice. The choice to participate is not predetermined. We can drop out of the plan, chose death, others will pick up the cause and get to make the unique contribution to the evolution of God the Supreme in time and space.

God knows what our choice will be, we don't.

True Scotsman · Oct 5, 2014

Fortunecookie said:
First of all I want to say that I am extremely inexperienced regarding faith and theology. And I do not mean this thread provactive in any way.

If G-d is all knowing and thus knows the future does this mean that the future is already determined. And if that is the case how could the L-rd then punish people for their lives if the script has already been written for their lives.

How can there be free will if G-d is all knowing? And if there is free will and freedom of choice, does that then must mean that G-d is not all knowing?

Maybe by asking this question I am seeing what G-d is completely wrong by personifying him as an individual.

Any input that can shed some light on this will be very much appreciated

Thank you,

Fortunecookie

If God existed and if it were all knowing this would just mean that it already knows what choices one is going to make in ones life. Since gods exist only subjectively, you can "see" God any way you wish, with whatever attributes you want to imagine.

Chesterton · Oct 5, 2014

Davian said:
So your god is not in a place? Where is that again?

Me: My God is not any color.
You: What color is that again?

As for making a choice, does that not have a temporal component? How can it be both timeless and temporal?

Yes it has a temporal component when it influences the temporal realm.

Is it a choice if you already know what choice was made?

Yes.

I have to ask, are you just making this up as you go along?

No, I read books and regurgitate ideas with which I tend to agree, once in a blue moon adding an original thought.

Chesterton · Oct 5, 2014

lesliedellow said:
Never undetermined means always determined. Maybe you need a dictionary.

Exactly. So a decision determined by someone else is not a decision by the so-called decision-maker.

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