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That was a poor analogy because it does not represent the true choice and the information given. It is not without reason that every other chopice has dire consequences. The whole of Christianity rests upon the necessity of humans needing to be saved, and Jesus' sacrifice on our behalf. No other religion deals with sin and our lost state, they only give us precepts to live by (often times good, sometimes not so good).
The horrible consequence of not choosing correctly is not akin to a shady salesman's statement without proof, it is intrinsic to the difference between choices. A better analogy would be to compare automobiles that actually run and automobiles that do not run. Without Jesus' death in our place we would still be accountable for every minor transgression of the law, and thus the other automobiles would not accomplish the necessary function.
The biblical definitions I gave you, make your questions moot. They were not answered because they were not relevant.Thanks for not answering either questions. You guys do so well at that.
Again not biblically defined "Free will." This is an example of you stacking the deck and make a judgment against God in your favor by redefining the term in question. My stated challenge for you is to make your judgment using biblically based terms.I'm talking about your ability to do things and make choices, whatever they may be.
Again No. If we are talking about the God of the bible then we are bound by the biblical definitions set by Him, not your understanding of Him or His principles.Whether your god likes them or not or whether his construct of what words really really mean, is irrelevant to your ability to make choices.
The reason your example was a "poor one" is due to the fact it does not follow the biblically based principles you are addressing.And this poor example of a scenario was to illustrate the dilemma at the moment when one was arriving at the choice, not after having already accepted it, its definitions and it's dogma.
Why do you wish that I remain silent? Are you afraid to comment on a biblically based principle in a relevant fashion? Do you fear accountability?If you can't even follow order of events, then just don't comment.
The biblical definitions I gave you, make your questions moot. They were not answered because they were not relevant.
Again not biblically defined "Free will." This is an example of you stacking the deck and make a judgment against God in your favor by redefining the term in question. My stated challenge for you is to make your judgment using biblically based terms.
Again No. If we are talking about the God of the bible then we are bound by the biblical definitions set by Him, not your understanding of Him or His principles.
The reason your example was a "poor one" is due to the fact it does not follow the biblically based principles you are addressing.
Why do you wish that I remain silent? Are you afraid to comment on a biblically based principle in a relevant fashion? Do you fear accountability?
Dear Non sequitur. Free will is rather straight forward, it might seem deceptive for people who do not understand, or try to understand. God is Love, and God made us in His image, i.e. we alone in this Universe can think and reason, and that makes us able to know what is Good, and what is Not Good. God gave us 10 Commandments, and Jesus gave us 2 Commandments. Those 2 which Jesus gave us, tell us All what God gave us in His 10 Commandments. Jesus made them easy to undertstand and straightforward, easy to remember and easy to follow: IF we are ready to change our selfish and unloving life-style/attitude to becoming as God wants us to be: Love with hearts, with souls, and with minds, for God our Heavenly Father, and Love for all others, friends or Not friends, as we love ourselves. A good way to start: Treat all we know and all we meet as we would love to be treated: with kindness and consideration, with friendly greetings and helpful and encouraging attitudes. God will see our sincere efforts, and God will approve and bless us. God will notice our love for Him, by following his Commandments to love as God wants us to love. Love is very catching, in time we will be treated as we started to treat others, as friendly followers of our Saviour Jesus Christ. Jesus will give us His Love and Joy, and the Holy Spirit will give us His Love. Wherever we go we will be surrounded by men and women who are infected by God`s Love for each other. We will stumble and fail often, but we will get up and ask God`s forgiveness. God will forgive us as we forgive others, and then we will carry on being God`s loving children/sons and daughters. There is no deception, Non sequitur. Love is a Christian`s strongest weapon, and Jesus told us: " Ask and ye will receive," and God`s love is always waiting for the asking: prayerfully. The Love we share must be selfless and beneficial. And one more thing: " The saying that people love Christ, but not Christians, has no real truth. Christ is our Saviour and the Way for us, and God gave us years to learn, those of us who still living are still in the process of learning to become as God wants us to be, and those Christians who are already with Jesus will be as God wants us to be. We too, will reach that perfection when the time comes. And thanks to God, we all have free Will to choose, and our Love will carry us home. I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.
Only if you are trying to maintain a position based in rudimentary understanding of causality, as the source of biblically based free will.Geez, you are missing the point.
What you seem to be missing over and over is the fact that biblically based free will has nothing to do with your individual choices. Whether your in the pool out of the pool or never even know what a pool is, free will still exists.Before you are swimming in the pool, you have to be outside of the the pool.
Therefore, at some point you had to make a decision to get in the pool; again, not in the pool yet.
My question is talking about the time prior to making the jump and the factors that went into making that decision.
Once already in the pool and saying, "I'm in the pool! The pool is the truth and has it's own definitions for things both in and out of the pool!" is silly.
Well of course it does, you are already in and accept whatever its telling you. Back wards reasoning will always prove itself to be true.
Again, again, again. Before you made the decision.
Actually no. You are applying your particular ideology and personal philosophy on a very secular understanding of basic causality and trying to apply it to a biblically based term (Free will.) From your specific understanding (Not one based in scripture) you are making a demand that God/we account for a paradox that was spawn out of a popular understanding and a general lack of scriptural knowledge of a term you have adopted as your own.For the above reasons. You re-frame questions and apply ideology to a question that is talking about the things before your ideology.
Then rephrase your question to account for the biblical definitions provided.No, I don't fear accountability.
Before we get to your "end." Let's account for the misuse of the word or general misunderstanding of what you have deemed as "free will."In my opinion, belief that if in end I will only be accountable for one thing, as apposed to an unlimited number of other decisions I make, would lead to an unaccountable lifestyle.
Only if you are trying to maintain a position based in rudimentary understanding of causality, as the source of biblically based free will.
Here is a good example of someone trying to reframe a causality argument and pass it off as biblically based freewill:
What you seem to be missing over and over is the fact that biblically based free will has nothing to do with your individual choices. Whether your in the pool out of the pool or never even know what a pool is, free will still exists.
Actually no. You are applying your particular ideology and personal philosophy on a very secular understanding of basic causality and trying to apply it to a biblically based term (Free will.) From your specific understanding (Not one based in scripture) you are making a demand that God/we account for a paradox that was spawn out of a popular understanding and a general lack of scriptural knowledge of a term you have adopted as your own.
This was the original reason for my first post. To clear up what you believe or understand to be "free will."
Then rephrase your question to account for the biblical definitions provided.
Before we get to your "end." Let's account for the misuse of the word or general misunderstanding of what you have deemed as "free will."
*sigh*
They are invalid because as I have said over and over Free will is not a "freedom of choice" issue.My questions are not invalid.
If you knew there might be certain consequences (hell) prior to making a decision, but these consequences could not be tested for validity (never met anybody who is currently in hell), should that be taken into consideration in making your decision?
Actually whether you can accept the teachings of the bible or not the principles in it are "provable." Therefore the principles we are speaking of have well defined parameters.Now, if your ability to determine what is real deals with the things that can't be demonstrably proven as real (saying "it doesn't work that way" or "it can't" can never make anything valid), then your ability to determine reality from non-reality is nonexistent.
God's abilities are not the foundation for our discussion. The principles in scripture are.You can't first say that something has supernatural abilities that can't be tested for, by its own definition, then use that as ground for its existence.
We established this in the beginning of this topic by stating if your are speaking of the "God" of the bible then we must ad hear to the principles and rules found in scripture.
*sigh*
They are invalid because as I have said over and over Free will is not a "freedom of choice" issue.
Actually whether you can accept the teachings of the bible or not the principles in it are "provable." Therefore the principles we are speaking of have well defined parameters.
God's abilities are not the foundation for our discussion. The principles in scripture are.
We established this in the beginning of this topic by stating if your are speaking of the "God" of the bible then we must ad hear to the principles and rules found in scripture.
If I tell you I am holding something in my hand, you can't say what properties it has or supernatural rules that apply to it prior to you knowing what it is, because you don't know those things yet.
Now that you don't believe in Santa Claus, you might look back and see some of the reasons why you did believe in him.
You can't look back and see the reasons why you didn't believe, when you did believe in him then.
Has your concept of money now, changed from your concept then when you were 3 1/2?
Just answer that, please.
(By the way, I'm not questioning money's existence or trying to re-define it.)
do you not know what causality is?If I tell you I am holding something in my hand, you can't say what properties it has or supernatural rules that apply to it prior to you knowing what it is, because you don't know those things yet.
Now that you don't believe in Santa Claus, you might look back and see some of the reasons why you did believe in him.
You can't look back and see the reasons why you didn't believe, when you did believe in him then.
Has your concept of money now, changed from your concept then when you were 3 1/2?
Just answer that, please.
(By the way, I'm not questioning money's existence or trying to re-define it.)
All of your definitions are based in it. Your are mistaking "Free will" for a general understanding of causality. Again free will in not about one's ability to choose.
Freewill as the bible describes it the ability to sin. If you think "Sin is a choice then please point to one person in History (That wasn't God) who did not sin.
Free will is the ability to be independent of the Expressed will of God. It has nothing to do with Choice. For instance I choose to live in the expressed will of God, yet I still sin. The sin I commit goes against what I "choose." Therefore "sin" in of itself is not a choice.The reason we "sin" is because our will is not bound to the will of God. It has nothing to do with what we choose.
Making your argument moot, and subsequently your questions (as they are currently phrased) invalid.
do you not know what causality is?
All of your definitions are based in it. Your are mistaking "Free will" for a general understanding of causality. Again free will in not about one's ability to choose.
Freewill as the bible describes it the ability to sin. I JUST STOPPED READING RIGHT HERE. If you think "Sin is a choice then please point to one person in History (That wasn't God) who did not sin.
Free will is the ability to be independent of the Expressed will of God. It has nothing to do with Choice. For instance I choose to live in the expressed will of God, yet I still sin. The sin I commit goes against what I "choose." Therefore "sin" in of itself is not a choice.The reason we "sin" is because our will is not bound to the will of God. It has nothing to do with what we choose.
Making your argument moot, and subsequently your questions (as they are currently phrased) invalid.
This ridiculous. If you wanna do things like stick your head in the sand and then say you can't see anything, therefore nothing else exists, be my guest.
By the way, you look silly talking with your head in the sand.
Fine. You word my question for me, then.
This ridiculous. If you wanna do things like stick your head in the sand and then say you can't see anything, therefore nothing else exists, be my guest.
By the way, you look silly talking with your head in the sand.
Fine. You word my question for me, then.
So the guy who will not or can not reconcile the biblical definition of free will, "stopped reading" because he claims I am putting MY head in the sand...
IF You are demanding a reconciliation between God and "freewill." This means you must be willing to accept God's definition of the term. Otherwise know it is not a reconciliation between God and the term you are looking for. You are looking for absolution for your personally understanding of the term. Which is foolishness simply because the "terms" will change once you find you have your back against the wall once again.
So the guy who will not or can not reconcile the biblical definition of free will, "stopped reading" because he claims I am putting MY head in the sand...
IF You are demanding a reconciliation between God and "freewill." This means you must be willing to accept God's definition of the term. Otherwise know it is not a reconciliation between God and the term you are looking for. You are looking for absolution for your personally understanding of the term. Which is foolishness simply because the "terms" will change once you find you have your back against the wall once again.
Yes, he is.
If your definition of free will is the "ability to sin"... then that would still be the ability to act without the constraint of necessity or fate, regardless of whether it is sinning or not; your ability to act at your own discretion.
So the free will in my question is the same free will by your definition.
"If I have the free will and the ability to choose the vehicle, didn't him mentioning the horrible outcome of my decision now heavily weigh in my decision making process?"
And no, I'm fine with your inability to answer questions or to think beyond and around your predispositions and hypnotized state
I'm just not going to play anymore.
Actually no.If your definition of free will is the "ability to sin"... then that would still be the ability to act without the constraint of necessity or fate, regardless of whether it is sinning or not; your ability to act at your own discretion.
Go back and try reading what i wrote you will see the separation of your version of "free will" and the biblical definition of it. They are not the same.So the free will in my question is the same free will by your definition.
Not a valid question"If I have the free will and the ability to choose the vehicle, didn't him mentioning the horrible outcome of my decision now heavily weigh in my decision making process?"
My "inability to answer your question" hinges on your inability to ask a coherent question that lies within the biblical parameters of "free will."And no, I'm fine with your inability to answer questions or to think beyond and around your predispositions and hypnotized state
Again you are free to come and go as you will.I'm just not going to play anymore.
Again you are free to come and go as you will.
I used your exact definition, not mine.Actually no.
Go back and try reading what i wrote you will see the separation of your version of "free will" and the biblical definition of it. They are not the same.
Not a valid question
My "inability to answer your question" hinges on your inability to ask a coherent question that lies within the biblical parameters of "free will."
Again you are free to come and go as you will.
drich0150 said:
So long as you have a respectful question I will do my best to provide an answer. If you wish for the conversation to stop then stop asking questions. However if you change your mind then feel free to ask another question, and we will continue.Should I stop responding to you or will you stop responding to my questions?
Sophomoric, at best.
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