I used to think Calvinists were wrong and that we do have a free will, but I'm starting to think they're right. Mostly Ephesians 1:11-12 and other verses convincing me (telling us we are God's chosen ones and that everything is part of His plan), plus it also makes sense because God knows everything and would therefore plan everything as the Bible teaches. But why wouldn't he want us to be able to do our own thing and why would He plan things He hates like murder and rape? I'm kind of starting to believe that He predestined all who would be saved but He didn't predestine their lives and would leave it up to randomness for His children. I'm still not sure though I don't know what to believe and I can't accept the fact we don't have a free will
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Free will/predestination
- Thread starter J0SHUA
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shturt678
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Free-will is the power to apply one's self to the things that make for salvation - God did not give us that power, ie, I even have to agree to disagree with the Augsburg Confession Art.18, "some liberty" as we have an absolute "enslaved-will" with no liberty regarding salvation, ie, lots of liberty on the temporal plane.
btw Calvinism along with modern Lutheranism are 'wrong.' Just ol' old wrong Jack still trying to allow the precious Holy Spirit purge the 'wrong' and merge in the 'right.'
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I mean does God plan every single thing that happens in life? And I mean everything, not just saved people. It seems like the Bible teaches we do not have a free will (Ephesians 1:11-12) but common sense proves we do have a free will: God gets angry with sin in the Bible, why would you plan something and get angry over what you planned? You can't get angry at what you planned, otherwise you would not have planned it. And if we didn't have a free will why would we be punished for sin? Wouldn't that be like putting a gun in a baby's hands, making her shoot by pushing her finger against the trigger to make her kill someone and then punish her for killing someone? The common sense alone makes me believe we do have a free will, this would mean I am taking biblical teaches of no free will the wrong way.
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shturt678
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Eph.1:11, 12, better rendition: "we were assigned a lot as having been predestinated." Already in eternity God determined the lot he assigned us in time, ie, directed to man's salvation, eg, knew the hearts of men and dropped Biblical Truth right onto their laps and they embraced it where others viewed as fallacious. Free-will in the temporal plane, of course we have; however one must not be under the 'power of sin' yet a sinner asking for continued dismissal of sins.
It's not an issue dealing with common sense, but more so interpreting from the English backwards to the ancient languages resulting in fallacious interpretations of Scriptures backed by 'common sense.' Just ol' old Jack trying to use God's common sense.
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lesliedellow
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I spent many years telling myself that the Bible couldn't mean what it said when it spoke of predestination, but eventually I just had to come to the realisation that it did mean what it said.
He may do, and doubtless God is no big fan of Judas Iscariot. Nevertheless Jesus' betrayal, crucifixion and resurrection were all preordained by God. They were not some unforeseen catastrophe unplanned by him.
But even though Judas' treachery was preordained, he will still be held responsible for his actions come judgment day. That is a paradox we have to live with.
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We do have the choice though. I know because I chose to leave the faith. The deal was I WANTED Hell. He will not make us love Him, if we choose Hell so be it.
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Would not reject and resist be the same thing? Also people can reject grace because you could offer to give me something I did not deserve and may I choose to decline it?
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shturt678
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One can resist God's grace for a time, then at some point may receive that grace. Once grace rejected, then there no reception at a later time, and fallaciously promotes "free-will" where we can cut and paste as we choose. No cutting and pasting ol' old Jack. btw grace resistable, and against Calvinisitic ideals of course, but also against modern Lutheranism.
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If you don't mind explaining it to us, what was it about Hell that seemed so appealing to you that you said you chose to reject Christianity and/or God in favor of it?
Thanks!
--David
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Albion
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All that would prove is that you weren't predestined to be one of the Elect. Assuming, of course, that you don't realize the mistake and commit yourself to Christ before your death.
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lesliedellow
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I thought I was reasonably fluent in English. I ought to be, because I have been speaking it for about 60 years, but I can't make head or tail of that.
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shturt678
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Modern Lutherans, after 1929 for sure, believe in "Free-will." [Augsburg confession Art.18 "some liberty" which I reject] - No liberty!
Calvinism do not believe in "Free-will," ie, all have a depraved will - I call "all have an "Enslaved-will." Calvinism believe in "grace is irresistible." Non-modern Lutherans, ie, pre-1930, believe in "grace is irresistible," ie, cannot be rejected; however believe God's grace does have its limits.
I reject the other 3 points of Calvinnism of course, ie, along with modern Lutherans.
Just ol' old retired teacher Jack, and have no excuse, ie, please accept my apology. Not that I'm correct, ie, just my opinion and open for refute of course.
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graceandpeace
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No, God does not plan every single thing that happens in life. If that was the God revealed in Scripture, He would not be worth one moment of anyone's time, let alone worship.
Take the Newtown massacre last year. Did God "plan" for the murders of those precious children? The ideology that "God is in control" would suggest that He did, that He puppeteered the killer into murdering those little angels. Sickening, right?
Thankfully, this is not the God of Scripture. Instead, we find that we live in an "evil age" (Galatians 1:4) - because people can choose evil, because disease & death are part of this world. Read Revelation 21:3-5. God's "plan" never featured evil & death, and will not feature such in the life to come.
"Come quickly, Lord Jesus" - so precious children are not massacred anymore, so wars are no longer waged, so disease & sickness cease to have control. "Come quickly" - so that You, Lord will finally be in control and not the "evil age."
For the record, I hold to Wesleyan theology, not Calvinist.
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It's fascinating that in the example of Pharaoh, Scripture gives equal balance, 10 times it says Pharaoh hardened his own heart, and 10 times it says God hardened PHaraoh's heart. God is obviously sovereign, and we obviously have a choice. Is our nature sinful? Yes, but we are also created in God's image and whether one believes in God or not one is capable of good. Not absolute good, not good in comparison to God (our righteousnesses are as filthy rags), not even necessarily good that isn't tainted in some way by sin, but good nonetheless. In that sense we are free to do both good and evil, Adam and Eve ate and had the knowledge of both good and evil and passed that down to us.
In terms of initial salvation, God predestined many according to His foreknowledge (1 Peter 1:2) We weren't predestined based on His foreknowledge of our faith(contra Arminianism) nor were we predestined independent of His foreknowledge (contra Calvinism). We were predestined according to His foreknowledge. God chose those who freely chose Him. Could we choose God without being regenerated? No. Could God save those who don't believe? No. Is God sovereign? Yes. Is man responsible? Yes.
In terms of initial salvation, God predestined many according to His foreknowledge (1 Peter 1:2) We weren't predestined based on His foreknowledge of our faith(contra Arminianism) nor were we predestined independent of His foreknowledge (contra Calvinism). We were predestined according to His foreknowledge. God chose those who freely chose Him. Could we choose God without being regenerated? No. Could God save those who don't believe? No. Is God sovereign? Yes. Is man responsible? Yes.
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Ephesians 1:11 does not teach against free will. It teaches inheritance and how to obtain it.
"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will."
The inheritance is predestinated. Not the convert. The inheritance is predestinated for the convert to obtain by believing according to God's will - God's word of promise, benefits, blessing.
The teaching of predestination of everyone and everything is in error, in that it does away with free will.
Teaching that no one has free will because everything and everyone is already predestined to a certain way.
Adam and Eve were not predestined to fall in the garden of Eden. Their disobedience was acting in their own will., using deceptive information that had come from the serpent.
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shturt678
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Just back up one verse, ie, Eph.1:10, "...all things in the Christ..." with v.11, ie, God's predestination act tallies with this governing and normative purpose, and he is the One who works "all the things" that his purpose covers according to the counsel of what he wills.
No synergisic nor free-will mirages, just ol' old Jack
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