- May 28, 2018
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I'm posting this under Kitchen Sink, because I want those not claiming Christianity to be able to contribute. Within what I say here, I want it understood, though, that I am assuming the meaning of 'God' to be, among other things, the absolute Omnipotent, a person, (i.e. not a mere mechanical fact), the only First Cause (Creator), and under no obligation to nor subject to any cause external to himself. The point of the thread is not to debate those things, but rather to discuss: Assuming those things, then.....
When we consider the philosophical 'necessary attributes of God', such as The Simplicity of God, The Aseity of God, and so on, we may begin to understand such things as, that, for God, to think is to do, and to observe [the future] is to cause [the future].
Today I was reminded elsewhere of a principle to bear in mind, debatable perhaps, but it has merit, that Time is the measure of change, and perhaps only OUR measure of change. Time is a principle by which we operate, and to which we, to a large degree, find ourselves subject; it also seems to be our almost unavoidable point of view in thought and reasoning/speech, even for those of us who have some degree of understanding as to its relativity and its beginning. But it is not a principle to which God is subject, except as he subjects himself to it. Having said that, I still must admit to seeing that whole matter from my time-dependent point of view.
Concerning the Freewill - Predestination debate in which Christians so often and virulently engage, I think it prudent to understand that we do so from the point of view of people under that time envelope —even when we argue such concepts as the timelessness of God. The Bible is written for such people as ourselves, usually in language we, who are bound by time, can understand. (I don't mean that the Bible is then not quite accurate, for that is one of the amazing things I find about the Bible, which I take to be the Word of God, that it is accurate from both points of view, (and often with a precision we don't realize). But the reliability of Scripture is not the point of this post.)
So, when an opponent on a thread claims a scripture reference demonstrates free will, he may be right, depending on what he means by "free". And when I claim that he is wrong, because we are not "free" in the sense that he uses it, both of us are talking about the activity of choice, and other things that happen ('changes') within this temporal 'envelope' we are subject to, and as though the absolute value of our choices was better than zero. But from God's point of view, it is hardly a question: God does — we respond.
Both of us are arguing something that we see as precious, true and necessary, but we are arguing what we don't understand, but what is nevertheless written for us to pursue, to try to understand. People do absolutely choose. And God absolutely did predestine everything that comes to pass. But they only produce a conflict in the mind of those who assume time's point of view to be valid, to the exclusion of God's point of view.
My point, then, is not that 'free will' is wrong, from God's point of view (again, depending on what one means by 'free' in that context, nor even that 'predestination' is right, but that when we argue these things, it is mainly because we see things from this temporal point of view.
The same principle applies to so many things! Even our large Theological arrangements, soteriology, eschatology and so on, are written around our dependence on time, and so our use of Scripture. We see, "this, then that", when God says, "it is done".
When we consider the philosophical 'necessary attributes of God', such as The Simplicity of God, The Aseity of God, and so on, we may begin to understand such things as, that, for God, to think is to do, and to observe [the future] is to cause [the future].
Today I was reminded elsewhere of a principle to bear in mind, debatable perhaps, but it has merit, that Time is the measure of change, and perhaps only OUR measure of change. Time is a principle by which we operate, and to which we, to a large degree, find ourselves subject; it also seems to be our almost unavoidable point of view in thought and reasoning/speech, even for those of us who have some degree of understanding as to its relativity and its beginning. But it is not a principle to which God is subject, except as he subjects himself to it. Having said that, I still must admit to seeing that whole matter from my time-dependent point of view.
Concerning the Freewill - Predestination debate in which Christians so often and virulently engage, I think it prudent to understand that we do so from the point of view of people under that time envelope —even when we argue such concepts as the timelessness of God. The Bible is written for such people as ourselves, usually in language we, who are bound by time, can understand. (I don't mean that the Bible is then not quite accurate, for that is one of the amazing things I find about the Bible, which I take to be the Word of God, that it is accurate from both points of view, (and often with a precision we don't realize). But the reliability of Scripture is not the point of this post.)
So, when an opponent on a thread claims a scripture reference demonstrates free will, he may be right, depending on what he means by "free". And when I claim that he is wrong, because we are not "free" in the sense that he uses it, both of us are talking about the activity of choice, and other things that happen ('changes') within this temporal 'envelope' we are subject to, and as though the absolute value of our choices was better than zero. But from God's point of view, it is hardly a question: God does — we respond.
Both of us are arguing something that we see as precious, true and necessary, but we are arguing what we don't understand, but what is nevertheless written for us to pursue, to try to understand. People do absolutely choose. And God absolutely did predestine everything that comes to pass. But they only produce a conflict in the mind of those who assume time's point of view to be valid, to the exclusion of God's point of view.
My point, then, is not that 'free will' is wrong, from God's point of view (again, depending on what one means by 'free' in that context, nor even that 'predestination' is right, but that when we argue these things, it is mainly because we see things from this temporal point of view.
The same principle applies to so many things! Even our large Theological arrangements, soteriology, eschatology and so on, are written around our dependence on time, and so our use of Scripture. We see, "this, then that", when God says, "it is done".