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But see bro, thats just it...........when we deal with an eternal God who knows neither a beggining or an end then their is no logical order when we deal with it from Gods perspective.
Now from our human perspective in which things do happen in an order of events from start to finish you are 100 percent correct.
Ok, but Paul worded it that way on purpose to teach us something. And Paul was inspired by God the Holy Spirit.
The point is, God wanted us to know that we were called and justified on the basis of being predestined, not vice versa.
Free Will or Predestination?? The following teaching makes complete sense to me, and I never really understood the harmony between the two until I heard this. The Bible CLEARLY teaches BOTH...sometimes people get wrapped up in one aspect of a particular doctrine that they close off all other parts of it that they are uncomfortable with.
Listen to this teaching on the subject by Dr. Chuck Missler:
[snipped]
Free Will and Predestination ONLY seems like a contradiction because we only know what life is like WITHIN the spacetime domain...but God exists OUTSIDE of both space and time, as He is Creator. When you take that in account the paradox vanishes...do I completely understand that? Well no, I'm not a Quantum Physicist. We have proven much of this through Quantum mechanics, and it has been called the "silliest theory proposed in the 20th century," and that "the ONLY thing it has going for it is that it is unquestionably correct."
We have reached a point in science in which we know this is true, yet it apparently contradicts most of what we know... but of what we know in science, Quantum theory MUST be true. A paradox again, which is rooted in the old free will/predestination paradox.
Like Paul said, we truly do "see through a glass darkly" (1 Corinthians 13).
I never said nor will I ever say that the HOLY word Of God is wrong!!!!! NOw you can twist whatever He says and what I say, but please don't ever say that I said His word is wrong!! I am not saying that they should have said that it was a rhino instead of a uniciorn, but saying a rose by anyother name will smell as sweet, the word unicorn could describe a rhino or a rhino could descibe a unicorn. so either one would not be wrong. NOw as far as your GREEK you keep trying to sell. I have also said that if in one place in scriptures we can find That He died for the WHOLE WORLD then all places concerning salvation should reflect that, there is no contradictions, So if He did die for the Whole World as John said in 1 JOhn 2 then the KJ translators got it right by saying might be redeemed, but again I beg you if you want to continue to fight against the Holy Word of God in English please start another thread!I am not. I am asking you serious and honest questions. I don't understand why you are getting frustrated, except that many pastors do not respond well to challenges. It comes from having to "defend the turf" against everyone that complains and attacks. But unfortunately, that makes it hard to be a disciple which is a learner.
Thank you. Doesn't that sound like the point I was making to you? You're saying it might not mean unicorn but might mean rhino. I'm exactly showed you that the word in that passage doesn't mean "might redeem" or "might not redeem" but means "to redeem" and you have mistranslated it. So, with the word "unicorn" you admit the KJV may be wrong, but with Titus 2:14 you will not even entertain the suggestion, but instead retreat to the defense of not understanding Greek. Interesting.
No, if you are going to be consistent with your interpretation of Titus 2:14 and refuse to look at other possibilities for "might not redeem" then no, there is only one possibility - the unicorn. That's what the KJV says, therefore it must be a unicorn.
However, if you were not so inflexible and would use study techniques, you would find that other translations, and the original Hebrew word, indicate this is a "wild ox" not a unicorn as people in King James' day might have thought to translate it. However, you should be consistent and stick to unicorn if you are going to stick with "might redeem" and "might not redeem."
and yet, when it doesn't disagree with you, you use Greek
Could you explain to me why you use Greek whenever and wherever you wish, but refuse to check it against the passage I questioned you on? Either stick to the KJV only, or use proper study resources consistently please.
And all this Greek was to no avail, for apparently you paid no attention to the last part of my previous post:
post #114: p.s. - I believe Christ died for all...."
Then you should have no problem admitting that "might" may mean "to redeem" instead of "might redeem" or "might not redeem". Who knows? If unicorn means rhino instead of what the Hebrew dictionary says when it says it means "wild ox", maybe, just maybe, the real meaning of the Greek word for "might redeem" really means "to redeem." You have me convinced!I never said nor will I ever say that the HOLY word Of God is wrong!!!!! NOw you can twist whatever He says and what I say, but please don't ever say that I said His word is wrong!! I am not saying that they should have said that it was a rhino instead of a uniciorn, but saying a rose by anyother name will smell as sweet, the word unicorn could describe a rhino or a rhino could descibe a unicorn.
as I have stated with others in here it is not about you it is not about me, ButThen you should have no problem admitting that "might" may mean "to redeem" instead of "might redeem" or "might not redeem". Who knows? If unicorn means rhino instead of what the Hebrew dictionary says when it says it means "wild ox", maybe, just maybe, the real meaning of the Greek word for "might redeem" really means "to redeem." You have me convinced!
But trust me on this one, a rhino probably doesn't smell as sweet as a unicorn.
I gather from these conversations that you don't want to admit you are wrong on this word regarding "to redeem." Ok, we can agree to disagree.
For my part, I don't think there is any reason for us to discuss Bible study together, because our techniques are too far apart. You pick Greek whenever you want to, but when you have a point to make you stick even with archaic English meanings if they support your doctrine. I cannot do Bible study that way, and cannot have intelligent discussions on the Bible with those who do not understand the basic tools for doing Bible study. I'm sure you are a sincere believer, but we must agree to go our own separate ways.
God bless,
H.
I think the real question should be to what degree do we have free will? That we can decide which drug to take or what bank to rob, or which woman to chase or what carrier to seek or what our favorite flavor of ice cream is does not really answer the question fully imho.
I found it rather easy to read and understand, it's a shame it went over your head you might have learned something!The above post should receive a gold medal and 1st place for being the most difficult to read post I've EVER seen on these forums.
You actually READ it???The above post should receive a gold medal and 1st place for being the most difficult to read post I've EVER seen on these forums.
Or you could just write your own thoughts and not depend on what someone who isn't even here says. I rarely, that is almost never, paste what someone else writes. I do it for 2 reasons: the person who said isn't here to defend it and I like to think for myself.that's what happens when you copy and past from a web page, runs together, no breaks, looks terrible.
A brief summary and link to source works for me
Predestination, in theology is the doctrine that all events have been willed by God. John Calvin interpreted biblical predestination to mean that God willed eternal damnation for some people and salvation for others.
For Augustine, grace is efficacious because Gods decree is efficacious and Gods decree is efficacious because God is a sovereign, efficacious God who does whatsoever He wills. Grace is also particular. God sovereignly decreed to reprobate some and choose others.12 Contrary to the Semi-Pelagians, Augustine taught that election and reprobation were not on the basis of foreseen faith or foreseen unbelief. The elect receive grace and the reprobate do not, and no other reason can be sought than the inscrutable will of God.
Augustine taught the election of the saints in Christ as members of His body: "As, therefore, that one man [Christ] was predestined to be our Head, so we being many are predestinated to be His members."13 Moreover, Augustine also taught reprobation:
12 Augustine followed what is now called the infralapsarian scheme.[God] used the very will of the creature which was working in opposition to the Creators will as an instrument for carrying out His will, the supremely Good thus turning to good account even what is evil, to the condemnation of those whom in His justice he has predestined to punishment.14
[The human] race we have distributed into two parts, the one consisting of those who live according to man, the other of those who live according to God. And these we also mystically call the two cities, or the two communities of men, of which the one is predestined to reign eternally with God, and the other to suffer eternal punishment with the devil.15
13 Augustine, On the Predestination of the Saints xiv:31, trans. Peter Holmes and Robert Earnest Wallis, in A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, First Series, ed. Philip Schaff, vol. 5 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, repr. 1983), p. 513.
14 Augustine, Enchiridion c, p. 269. In the two previous chapters, Augustine speaks of Gods hatredwhich he does not understand as "loving less"of Esau and His hardening of the lost (Enchiridion xcviii-xcix, pp. 268-269). Thus Richard A. Muller wrongly denies that the Enchiridion teaches reprobation ("Reformation, Augustinianism in," in Augustine through the Ages: An Encyclopedia, ed. Allan D. Fitzgerald [Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1999], p. 706).
15 Augustine, The City of God xv:1, p. 284; italics mine.
Our disagreement is over your interpretation of Titus 2:14 and the meaning of the word the KJV translates as "might redeem." Nothing more. It is over your use of the KJV alone as a Bible study reference and then backing it up with Webster's dictionary.I have never had anyone ever claimed that they agree with me argue so much against me before, this is definitely a first for me! Thank you for the experience! of arguing with someone that is on my side! I THINK!!
Or you could just write your own thoughts and not depend on what someone who isn't even here says. I rarely, that is almost never, paste what someone else writes. I do it for 2 reasons: the person who said isn't here to defend it and I like to think for myself.
I am not picking on you btw I just used your post to sound off.
you say I keep avoiding might in the greek what is your take on 1 John 2. you are stuck on titus 2 the same you accuse me of being stuck on the english translation?Our disagreement is over your interpretation of Titus 2:14 and the meaning of the word the KJV translates as "might redeem." Nothing more. It is over your use of the KJV alone as a Bible study reference and then backing it up with Webster's dictionary.
We both believe Christ died for the world. If you don't see that as agreement, then it would seem that you see disagreements where there are none.
p.s. - when God said don't add to or take away from His words, the KJV hadn't yet been made.
His_disciple3 said:you say I keep avoiding might in the greek what is your take on 1 John 2. you are stuck on titus 2 the same you accuse me of being stuck on the english translation?
You just took a giant leap by changing "that he might redeem us from all iniquity" to "He died that SOME MIGHT BE SAVED". You have changed God's Holy Word and added to it. The KJV doesn't say this.that all when it comes to redeemimg or salvation it will mean that He died that SOME MIGHT BE SAVED, so the KJB is not wrong by adding might but rather clears up the Gospel
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