Free Will Exists Vs Free Will Does Not Exist

[elopez]

Well my view is that we do have free will, up until we realize God has a perfect will. We then consider our own free will to be foolish if it deviates from God's perfect will.

So are you saying we cease to have free will in a literal sense? Can you expound a little more? Perhaps a definition, or if you think free will is compatible with determinism.

 

[Chriliman]

So are you saying we cease to have free will in a literal sense? Can you expound a little more? Perhaps a definition, or if you think free will is compatible with determinism.

No, I don't think we cease to have free will. I think after one has a realization of God through Jesus Christ, they then know what is true, which means any deviation from this truth that might be caused by their free will is immediately exposed as sin, through the Holy Spirit and they ask for forgiveness and are forgiven up until the point of death which is when their free will is made one with God's perfect will.

I don't think free will is compatible with determinism because if we didn't actually have free will, meaning free to choose a will opposite God's perfect will, then we could never sin. Man is not guilty of creating evil, satan is. Man is only guilty of sin and can only find forgiveness of sin through Jesus Christ.

 

[Chriliman]

No, I don't think we cease to have free will. I think after one has a realization of God through Jesus Christ, they then know what is true, which means any deviation from this truth that might be caused by their free will is immediately exposed as sin, through the Holy Spirit and they ask for forgiveness and are forgiven up until the point of death which is when their free will is made one with God's perfect will.

I don't think free will is compatible with determinism because if we didn't actually have free will, meaning free to choose a will opposite God's perfect will, then we could never sin. Man is not guilty of creating evil, satan is. Man is only guilty of sin and can only find forgiveness of sin through Jesus Christ.

Actually, I shouldn't say satan created evil, I mean satan is the direct cause of evil and man is the direct cause of sin in man.

 

[elopez]

I don't think free will is compatible with determinism because if we didn't actually have free will, meaning free to choose a will opposite God's perfect will, then we could never sin.

I think this is where we may find disagreement. I think free will is compatible with determinism. Both exist.

I would say determinism is true based on God's foreknowledge and His act of creation. In light of that, how do you view omniscience and creation?

 

[Chriliman]

I think this is where we may find disagreement. I think free will is compatible with determinism. Both exist.

I would say determinism is true based on God's foreknowledge and His act of creation. In light of that, how do you view omniscience and creation?

Yea omniscience is an interesting concept. Again, I look at it from God's perspective. God is timeless and unchanging, unable to be tempted by satan, but when he sent Jesus in the form of a man, God became in time and able to understand the temptations of evil. God the father can never be tempted by evil, but God the son was tempted by satan and overcame because the son followed the will of the father even to the cross. Since Jesus freely chose to do this, He greatly pleased God the father and made it possible for God the Father to conquer death itself and render satan powerless over those who believe in Jesus. Jesus had a perfect free will because He perfectly followed the will of the Father.

So, through the creation of free will God indirectly causes evil/death and is simultaneously able to create life and destroy death/evil while remaining perfectly unchanging in timelessness. Hope this makes sense.

 

[elopez]

Yea omniscience is an interesting concept. Again, I look at it from God's perspective.

We would have to look at it from God's perspective. He knows everything, and I believe this to suggest determinism is true in the logical sense.

God is timeless and unchanging

On this we agree, but again I still find causal determinism to be true based on God's creative act.

I believe both forms of determinism are compatible with free will, in which free will is not defined as libertarianism. Do you know what that view on free will is? It almost seems like you are suggesting it.

 

[Chriliman]

We would have to look at it from God's perspective. He knows everything, and I believe this to suggest determinism is true in the logical sense.

God the father cannot be tempted by evil, so He must not know what its like to be tempted by evil, only God the son knows what its like to be tempted by evil, which is how we can relate to Jesus and follow Him to the Father. We are connected to the Father through Jesus Christ, but we won't truly see the Father, until we die.

On this we agree, but again I still find causal determinism to be true based on God's creative act.

As long as you think causal determinism suggests free will then I agree.

 

[elopez]

God the father cannot be tempted by evil, so He must not know what its like to be tempted by evil, only God the son knows what its like to be tempted by evil,

Is this just to say that God the Father has not experienced temptation but knows of it? Or that He literally doesn't know at all what temptation is?

As long as you think casual determinism suggests free will then I agree.

Causal determinism doesn't suggest free will but it is in accordance with i. So is this to retract your earlier statement that free will and determinism are not compatible?

 

[Chriliman]

Is this just to say that God the Father has not experienced temptation but knows of it? Or that He literally doesn't know at all what temptation is?


Causal determinism doesn't suggest free will but it is in accordance with i. So is this to retract your earlier statement that free will and determinism are not compatible?

You're right, one can know of someone's pain without experiencing it. God knows of temptation but does not experience it.

When I looked up determinism it said philosophers are using determinism to say humans don't have free will. I agree with you that determinism is compatible with free will.

 

[elopez]

Still no contender. Again, this is open to one who disbelieves in free will, either in a theological sense or some type of naturalist sense. You might think free will is conflicting with Christianity. You may think God gave us free will, yet in a more libertarianism way. I am open to any one of these and more, just not anyone who thinks free will exists and is compatible with determinism as that would be my position.

 

[Chriliman]

Still no contender. Again, this is open to one who disbelieves in free will, either in a theological sense or some type of naturalist sense. You might think free will is conflicting with Christianity. You may think God gave us free will, yet in a more libertarianism way. I am open to any one of these and more, just not anyone who thinks free will exists and is compatible with determinism as that would be my position.

I guess the more I think about it, the more it seems that it is free will that causes suffering and it is God's will that is good. God allows suffering in order to reveal His good will. If one freely choses to not obey God's good will, then God can't do anything to stop you because one is actually free to choose. In this sense all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by free will and not causes external to free will. From God's perspective there are no events, there is all events at one moment in timelessness.

 

[elopez]

In this sense all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by free will and not causes external to free will.

Lol. So determinism is false to you then?

 

[GillDouglas]

I would take the view that free will does exist.

I do not believe that anything is beyond God's will and if what I believe about His character is accurate than from His point of view we do not have free will. Think about it this way: If God is the Author of this world, who has the details of our lives accurately planned out? God, right? When we make a "choice" or "decide" something, did we truly have an option if the outcome was always meant to be? We couldn't have known the outcome of our choice, but if we could we'd realize we didn't have any choice. Even a bad choice is God's will being fulfilled and that decision is a part of a bigger picture that we cannot understand.

I'm sure God is ok with us believing we have 'free will', but personally I feel much more secure in knowing He is in full control and has great plans for me. I will not believe that the decisions and choices of fallible men can thwart the plans of our God.

 

[elopez]

than from His point of view we do not have free will.

What about from our pont of view? I am not sure we can say what God thinks of us believing in free will or not, though it does seem like He wants us to have a relationship with Him which seems to include some type of free will.

did we truly have an option if the outcome was always meant to be?

I think so. I believe this woukd be free will regardless of the fixed nature.

Again, this may turn into another case in which there isn't much room for debate. I'm looking for onewho totally disagrees we have any notion of free will, or the same for determinism.

 

[Chriliman]

Lol. So determinism is false to you then?

Yes, I think so...this is a toughie for sure. Ultimately, I'm sure there is a reason this is such a tough thing to grasp.

I'll change my general statement to this: All events, including a perfectly created being's action, are ultimately determined by free will.

This means God did not directly cause/create evil so that we would freely decide to choose it or not. Instead, it means God created free will so that perfect beings could freely choose His will or not. The result of a perfect being not choosing God's will is evil. Meaning perfect created beings directly caused evil, which then had a cascading effect across all creation, but God is still above this effect in only the way that God can be. God has sovereignty over evil and it will ultimately be used to fulfill His perfect plan.

 

[GillDouglas]

What about from our pont of view? I am not sure we can say what God thinks of us believing in free will or not, though it does seem like He wants us to have a relationship with Him which seems to include some type of free will.

From our point of view it only appears that we have choices, but the path for us is already set. If we were always meant to be His, for those who "choose", was there truly a choice? For those who are not, who reject Him, did they also have a choice? For both, they glorify Him.

I think so. I believe this woukd be free will regardless of the fixed nature.

Again, this may turn into another case in which there isn't much room for debate. I'm looking for onewho totally disagrees we have any notion of free will, or the same for determinism.

How can free will exist in a fixed nature if a choice could possibly change the outcome? We have no free will when His is absolute.

 

[GillDouglas]

Yes, I think so...this is a toughie for sure. Ultimately, I'm sure there is a reason this is such a tough thing to grasp.

I'll change my general statement to this: All events, including a perfectly created being's action, are ultimately determined by free will.

This means God did not directly cause/create evil so that we would freely decide to choose it or not. Instead, it means God created free will so that perfect beings could freely choose His will or not. The result of a perfect being not choosing God's will is evil. Meaning perfect created beings directly caused evil, which then had a cascading effect across all creation, but God is still above this effect in only the way that God can be. God has sovereignty over evil and it will ultimately be used to fulfill His perfect plan.

Your statement, while very well said, still points all things back to God. He has sovereignty over ALL things, and that includes the path the created beings take.

 

[Chriliman]

Your statement, while very well said, still points all things back to God. He has sovereignty over ALL things, and that includes the path the created beings take.

As it should point back to God. God created us in His image and He has a perfect will, therefore, I believe He wants us to embrace our free will to choose His perfect will. Every morning I make a choice to pray and ask God to lead me in that day, I embrace my free will to follow Him.

 

[GillDouglas]

As it should point back to God. God created us in His image and He has a perfect will, therefore, I believe He wants us to embrace our free will to choose His perfect will. Every morning I make a choice to pray and ask God to lead me in that day, I embrace my free will to follow Him.

Are you certain it is your free will, or the work of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Chriliman]

Maybe its better stated that from our limited perspective we must exercise our free will to follow God. The fact of the matter is that it is our perspective that we are limited to. God is the one that reveals the truth.