Free Will challenge

[Gup20]

And from where does such faith come? From the death of fallen flesh, or from the Spirit of God?

From the soul/heart of the depraved, fallen, sinful man. The gospel is preached, the gospel is heard by the mind/will/emotions of the listener, and if he believes that gospel he will be saved. We know that belief comes BEFORE the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, so the Holy Spirit does not hear the gospel & give him faith ... so the faith he has is his own.

[Eph 1:13-14 KJV] 13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.​

The Spirit was not given before Pentecost? Is not the Old Testament replete with the Spirit doing things in people before Pentecost? Are the Gospels lacking in mentions of things the Spirit does? Why would David fear the lack of the Holy Spirit after his grievous sin, if he was not accustomed to its presence?

The Spirit came upon, but never within. In other words, no one was ever 'regenerated' or experienced being 'born again' until after the Holy Spirit was given to indwell men's hearts. This means the Spirit was an influencer (just as demons influence from without), but not determinative.

[Eze 36:26 KJV] 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.​

Ezekiel is prophesying of the day when the Holy Spirit would be given because it hasn't happened yet.

@Clare73 is "literally(?!)" saying the exact sentence YOU take Deuteronomy 30 to be saying not to say. After all that's been said to you, including my comment that what is told them in your reference has to do with the commandment and not choice, you continue with your presumed meaning and, uh, 'mistaken' use.

BTW, in spite of any protests to the contrary, the commandment does NOT imply the ability to obey.

I realize it is devastating to Calvinism, but that's what it says. I didn't write it. The only other scripture in the Torah to speak of circumcising the heart says:

[Deu 10:12, 15-16 NASB95] 12 "Now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require from you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all His ways and love Him, and to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, ... 15 "Yet on your fathers did the LORD set His affection to love them, and He chose their seed after them, [even] you above all peoples, as [it is] this day. 16 "So circumcise your heart, and stiffen your neck no longer.​

So the command that Jesus confirmed was the greatest commandment in all the law has specifically to do with the "seed of Abraham" and circumcision of the heart. Interesting.

 

[Clare73]

Nor heroic feats like having the Holy Spirit indwell you and make you hear the gospel and give you faith to believe.
The context is Deuteronomy 30:6 - circumcision of the heart, which is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
It is simple faith, yes I agree. Mere human belief. Since the belief is coming from the heart, and since belief is required prior to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we can say with absolute certainty it is belief generated in the soul of the unsaved or lost (depraved) man.

And from where does such faith come? From the death of fallen flesh, or from the Spirit of God?

So you deny the plain teaching of Paul in Romans 10.

[Rom 10:6 NASB95] 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),​

Actually, I affirm the teaching in Romans 10. . .righteousness is from Christ, where we do not have to climb or dive to access him by the gift of faith (Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1; Acts 13:48, 18:27; Romans 12:3) from the Holy Spirit, in his sovereign regeneration of us (John 3:7-8).

 

[Gup20]

Actually, I affirm the teaching in Romans 10. . .righteousness is from Christ, where we do not have to climb or dive to access him by the gift of faith (Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1; Acts 13:48, 18:27; Romans 12:3) from the Holy Spirit, in his sovereign regeneration of us (John 3:7-8).

Looking at Philippians, it says:

[Phl 1:27-30 NASB95] 27 Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; 28 in no way alarmed by [your] opponents which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that [too,] from God. 29 For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 experiencing the same conflict which you saw in me, and now hear [to be] in me.​

So the IT in verse 29 is a pronoun. It correlates with the THAT pronoun the verse before which is gender neuter. The ALARMED BY YOUR OPPONENTS is masculine while DESTRUCTION FOR THEM & SALVATION FOR YOU is feminine. Therefore, the neuter THAT pronoun refers to the whole process in verse 28 and the IT in verse 29 continues the thought meaning "the whole process of being in no way alarmed by your opponents which is a sign of destruction for them but salvation for you" has been granted for Christ sake. Not only are you believing, but you are also suffering (these describing present experiences).

The Peter 1:1 passage is implying a cumulative building upon faith ... it doesn't say "the faith for salvation" it says "a faith of the same kind as ours" (implying multiple types of faith). Based on the following context it seems Peter is talking about sanctification, not justification.

[2Pe 1:3, 5-8 NASB95] 3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. ... 5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in [your] moral excellence, knowledge, 6 and in [your] knowledge, self-control, and in [your] self-control, perseverance, and in [your] perseverance, godliness, 7 and in [your] godliness, brotherly kindness, and in [your] brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if these [qualities] are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

There is ABSOLUTELY a kind of faith given for the purposes of sanctification which the Bible speaks about separate from faith for justification (which is generated by depraved man). This type IS given by the Holy Spirit, but not given to everyone.

[1Co 12:7-11, 30-31 NASB95] 7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another [various] kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. ... 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.​

When it comes to the gift of faith, that gift is NOT given to every believer (just as healing, prophecy, tongues is not given to every believer).

For Acts 13:48, it says "as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." This word 'appointed' is not common... it is used 8 times in the Bible and 6/8 times it is used to describe people appointing, setting, determining, devoting, designating or establishing something. It doesn't say God appointed (devoted or established) them to eternal life, but rather seems to imply their belief was the cause of the appointing. This is confirmed when you look at the context for the verse:

[Act 13:46-48 NASB95] 46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 "For so the Lord has commanded us, 'I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES, THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.'" 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they [began] rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.​

So Paul and Barnabas establish whom is doing the judging and appointing to eternal life... they themselves!

Acts 18:27 There is a translation note there which says it may be translated: "helped greatly through grace those who had believed." The reason for this is clear - when you look at the genders, "greatly helped" is neuter, while "had believed" is masculine and "through grace" is feminine. So we know with certainty that what it cannot mean is the faith comes through grace as that is a change from masculine to feminine.

As I suspected, Calvinism is trans. (just kidding!)

I've already dealt with Romans 12:3 (the gift of faith vs faith for justification). It specifically says that not every believer gets each of the gifts, so according to that logic some are saved who have not been given faith and Calvinism is proven as only one possible way to salvation. That would be wild - if both Calvin and Arminius were right... yikes. It is more likely that both are wrong.

In you final passage (John 3:7-8) I never argue this point with you (though you've posted it multiple times) because I agree - being "circumcised in heart" or "regenerated" or "born again" are performed entirely by God and man has no ability to perform it for himself. Where we disagree is how one qualifies to have such action performed on their behalf. Calvinism posits that the choice is entirely God's to make for each individual, and I suggest that God chose a group (the descendants of Abraham) and whether to join that group is a choice He sets before man and commands him to choose (between life or death, blessing or cursing) which ultimately affects whether he belongs to that chosen group.

Even Calvinists accept this group election on some level, as they accept the nation of Israel as God's chosen people, and that not each individual in the nation is chosen, but they are chosen because they are part of the nation. They could be terrible bad people, but if they were born into the nation of Israel, they are still part of God's chosen people. God predestined that people as a nation irrespective of the individuals which comprise it.

Christ's prayer on the cross reads from Psalms:

[Psa 69:13, 16-18, 21, 23-28 NASB95] 13 But as for me, my prayer is to You, O LORD, at an acceptable time; O God, in the greatness of Your lovingkindness, Answer me with Your saving truth. ... 16 Answer me, O LORD, for Your lovingkindness is good; According to the greatness of Your compassion, turn to me, 17 And do not hide Your face from Your servant, For I am in distress; answer me quickly. 18 Oh draw near to my soul [and] redeem it; Ransom me because of my enemies! ... 21 They also gave me gall for my food And for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink. ... 23 May their eyes grow dim so that they cannot see, And make their loins shake continually. 24 Pour out Your indignation on them, And may Your burning anger overtake them. 25 May their camp be desolate; May none dwell in their tents. 26 For they have persecuted him whom You Yourself have smitten, And they tell of the pain of those whom You have wounded. 27 Add iniquity to their iniquity, And may they not come into Your righteousness. 28 May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.​

Jesus prays against the nation of Israel here for them to be blinded, for their land to be desolate, and that they be blotted out of the book of life. You must be already written in the book to be blotted out! They were written because they were Abraham's descendants. And surely, the land of Israel was cursed for 2000 years and remained a desolate desert while the Jews were scattered.

[Rom 11:24-25 NASB95] 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural [branches] be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery so that you will not be wise in your own estimation that a partial blindness has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;​

 

[Clare73]

Looking at Philippians, it says:

[Phl 1:27-30 NASB95] 27 Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; 28 in no way alarmed by [your] opponents which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that [too,] from God. 29 For to you​

it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 experiencing the same conflict which you saw in me, and now hear [to be] in me.

So the IT in verse 29 is a pronoun. It correlates with the THAT pronoun the verse before which is gender neuter. The ALARMED BY YOUR OPPONENTS is masculine while DESTRUCTION FOR THEM & SALVATION FOR YOU is feminine. Therefore, the neuter THAT pronoun refers to the whole process in verse 28 and the IT in verse 29 continues the thought meaning "the whole process of being in no way alarmed by your opponents which is a sign of destruction for them but salvation for you" has been granted for Christ sake. Not only are you believing, but you are also suffering (these describing present experiences).

1) "You are wrestling the Scriptures" (2 Peter 3:16) in the simple statement of Philippians 1:29:
It has been granted to you not only to believe, but. . ."

Faith is granted, it is a gift.

The Peter 1:1 passage is implying a cumulative building upon faith ... it doesn't say "the faith for salvation" it says "a faith of the same kind as ours" (implying multiple types of faith).

2) No. . .nor does it imply any such thing.
It says the "same kind of precious as ours."

You are again "wresting (2 Peter 3:16) the Scriptures" in the Greek of 2 Peter 1:1:
"to the (ones) having obtained equally precious faith in the righteousness of our God" (2 Peter 1:1),
where "faith" here is not a body of truth to be believed ("the faith"), but the act of believing,
the God-given (i.e., gift) capacity to trust in Christ for salvation.

Faith is received, it is a gift.

Based on the following context it seems Peter is talking about sanctification, not justification.

However, based on the text itself of 2 Peter 1:1, Peter is talking about saving faith, not about sanctification.

[2Pe 1:3, 5-8 NASB95] 3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. ... 5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in [your] moral excellence, knowledge, 6 and in [your] knowledge, self-control, and in [your] self-control, perseverance, and in [your] perseverance, godliness, 7 and in [your] godliness, brotherly kindness, and in [your] brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if these [qualities] are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is ABSOLUTELY a kind of faith given for the purposes of sanctification which the Bible speaks about separate from faith for justification (which is generated by depraved man). This type IS given by the Holy Spirit, but not given to everyone.

[1Co 12:7-11, 30-31 NASB95] 7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another [various] kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. ... 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.​

When it comes to the gift of faith, that gift is NOT given to every believer (just as healing, prophecy, tongues is not given to every believer).

For Acts 13:48, it says "as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." This word 'appointed' is not common... it is used 8 times in the Bible and 6/8 times it is used to describe people appointing, setting, determining, devoting, designating or establishing something. It doesn't say God appointed (devoted or established) them to eternal life, but rather seems to imply their belief was the cause of the appointing. This is confirmed when you look at the context for the verse:

[Act 13:46-48 NASB95] 46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 "For so the Lord has commanded us, 'I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES, THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.'" 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they [began] rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.​

So Paul and Barnabas establish whom is doing the judging and appointing to eternal life... they themselves!

3) If you think the statement, "All who were appointed to eternal life believed" is stating that Paul and Barnabas establish who is appointing to eternal life, you believe less of the NT than I ever imagined.

It is God who appoints to eternal life by giving faith, not Paul and Barnabas.

Acts 18:27 There is a translation note there which says it may be translated: "helped greatly through grace those who had believed." The reason for this is clear - when you look at the genders, "greatly helped" is neuter, while "had believed" is masculine and "through grace" is feminine.

So we know with certainty that what it cannot mean is the faith comes through grace
as that is a change from masculine to feminine.
As I suspected, Calvinism is trans. (just kidding!)

4) Absurd on its face!

Certainty?. . .when the Holy Spirit (masculine--"he" and "him") is neuter.

Faith is by grace, which is only from God.

Saving faith is not one of the spiritual gifts, which are given to some, and not all.

I've already dealt with Romans 12:3 (the gift of faith vs faith for justification). It specifically says that not every believer gets each of the gifts,

5) And that is referring to one of the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit, not to saving and justifying faith, which all Christians have.
The spiritual gift of faith (1 Corinthians 12:9) is to meet a special need in the body (1 Corinthians 13:2) and, while not being saving faith already granted, is nevertheless a gift, as is saving faith in 1) - 4) above.

Again, saving faith is not one of the spiritual gifts, which are given to some, and not all.

so according to that logic some are saved who have not been given faith and
Calvinism is proven as only one possible way to salvation.

That would be "according to that logic," which is a contra-NT understanding of faith.

That would be wild - if both Calvin and Arminius were right... yikes.
It is more likely that both are wrong.

That would be Arminius and your misunderstanding of Calvin that are both wrong.

In you final passage (John 3:7-8) I never argue this point with you (though you've posted it multiple times) because I agree - being "circumcised in heart" or "regenerated" or "born again" are performed entirely by God and man has no ability to perform it for himself. Where we disagree is how one qualifies to have such action performed on their behalf. Calvinism posits that the choice is entirely God's to make for each individual, and I suggest that God chose a group (the descendants of Abraham) and whether to join that group is a choice He sets before man and commands him to choose (between life or death, blessing or cursing) which ultimately affects whether he belongs to that chosen group.

Even Calvinists accept this group election on some level, as they accept the nation of Israel as God's chosen people, and that not each individual in the nation is chosen, but they are chosen because they are part of the nation. They could be terrible bad people, but if they were born into the nation of Israel, they are still part of God's chosen people. God predestined that people as a nation irrespective of the individuals which comprise it.

Christ's prayer on the cross reads from Psalms:

[Psa 69:13, 16-18, 21, 23-28 NASB95] 13 But as for me, my prayer is to You, O LORD, at an acceptable time; O God, in the greatness of Your lovingkindness, Answer me with Your saving truth. ... 16 Answer me, O LORD, for Your lovingkindness is good; According to the greatness of Your compassion, turn to me, 17 And do not hide Your face from Your servant, For I am in distress; answer me quickly. 18 Oh draw near to my soul [and] redeem it; Ransom me because of my enemies! ... 21 They also gave me gall for my food And for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink. ... 23 May their eyes grow dim so that they cannot see, And make their loins shake continually. 24 Pour out Your indignation on them, And may Your burning anger overtake them. 25 May their camp be desolate; May none dwell in their tents. 26 For they have persecuted him whom You Yourself have smitten, And they tell of the pain of those whom You have wounded. 27 Add iniquity to their iniquity, And may they not come into Your righteousness. 28 May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.​

Jesus prays against the nation of Israel here for them to be blinded, for their land to be desolate, and that they be blotted out of the book of life. You must be already written in the book to be blotted out! They were written because they were Abraham's descendants. And surely, the land of Israel was cursed for 2000 years and remained a desolate desert while the Jews were scattered.

[Rom 11:24-25 NASB95] 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural [branches] be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery so that you will not be wise in your own estimation that a partial blindness has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;​

 

[Mark Quayle]

Nor heroic feats like having the Holy Spirit indwell you and make you hear the gospel and give you faith to believe.

Did I miss the part where you showed it is possible any other way? No, you did not show how it is possible through Abraham. Your construction falls short. Christ is the only way. Salvific faith is the work of God, not of man.

 

[Mark Quayle]

From the soul/heart of the depraved, fallen, sinful man. The gospel is preached, the gospel is heard by the mind/will/emotions of the listener, and if he believes that gospel he will be saved. We know that belief comes BEFORE the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, so the Holy Spirit does not hear the gospel & give him faith ... so the faith he has is his own.

Well, no, you don't know that. Your pre-conception of the matter interprets what you read that way. Try, just for a change, to open-mindedly consider the sequence of causation when you read such passages, rather than the sequence of time. You may even find that the order of mention is irrelevant and that the words "'this' caused 'that'" to be lacking from the texts you thought supported your narrative. You will find the word, "and", more often than you supposed.

 

[Gup20]

Did I miss the part where you showed it is possible any other way? No, you did not show how it is possible through Abraham. Your construction falls short. Christ is the only way. Salvific faith is the work of God, not of man.

The fact that Abraham - who neither had the Holy Spirit come upon him nor would the Holy Spirit indwell man for 2000 years, nor would man’s heart be regenerated or born again until He indwelled it - was able to have faith in the gospel when it was preached to him. Further that Deuteronomy 30 says it is not too difficult for you to make the choice for salvation. Further still that one doesn’t need spiritual regeneration to achieve human adoption.

Jesus said in John 6:64 the REASON why He said they couldn’t come to the Father in John 6:44 is BECAUSE they didn’t believe. Therefore Christ Himself confirms faith is the causal determinative factor for whether they are chosen & can come.

I think the construction stands pretty easily on its own. At what point did you believe it fell short? You said depraved man couldn’t believe - so I showed you one (Abraham) whom the Bible holds up as the quintessential example of faith.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The fact that Abraham - who neither had the Holy Spirit come upon him nor would the Holy Spirit indwell man for 2000 years, nor would man’s heart be regenerated or born again until He indwelled it - was able to have faith in the gospel when it was preached to him.

You have not shown this, neither part of it.

Further that Deuteronomy 30 says it is not too difficult for you to make the choice for salvation. Further still that one doesn’t need spiritual regeneration to achieve human adoption.

Jesus said in John 6:64 the REASON why He said they couldn’t come to the Father in John 6:44 is BECAUSE they didn’t believe. Therefore Christ Himself confirms faith is the causal determinative factor for whether they are chosen & can come.

I think the construction stands pretty easily on its own. At what point did you believe it fell short? You said depraved man couldn’t believe - so I showed you one (Abraham) whom the Bible holds up as the quintessential example of faith.

Your wonderful construction stands upon the same thing simple Arminianism and even Pelagianism does, and therefore fails: The fallen will of man CANNOT submit to, nor please God. You posit a means where the silly 'faith' of mere fallen human choosing, at enmity with God, not only is illogically caused by 'who knows what ultimately impelled some to believe and others not to', but is unbiblically full of knowledge and truth and integrity concerning that in which it is so surely and steadfastly choosing and believing.

 

[Gup20]

You have not shown this, neither part of it.

The fact that the Bible NEVER once describes Abraham as having the Holy Spirit come upon him nor indwell him. Clearly Moses knew about the Holy Spirit when he wrote the Torah as he speaks of Him in Num 11:25, Num 24:2. He could have stated that the Holy Spirit indwelled or even came upon Abraham, but he did not. Further, it would strain all credulity for God to make the promise of the Spirit to Abraham and his Seed, having already given it to him. It's not reasonable for someone to prove a negative... you have to prove the positive. There is no positive affirmation in scripture to Abraham's having been indwelled by the Holy Spirit, regenerated, circumcized in heart, or born again.

Your wonderful construction stands upon the same thing simple Arminianism and even Pelagianism does, and therefore fails: The fallen will of man CANNOT submit to, nor please God. You posit a means where the silly 'faith' of mere fallen human choosing, at enmity with God, not only is illogically caused by 'who knows what ultimately impelled some to believe and others not to', but is unbiblically full of knowledge and truth and integrity concerning that in which it is so surely and steadfastly choosing and believing.

The notion that fallen man cannot believe is weak, flimsy, and demonstrably false. It is based on nothing more than conjecture and prideful boasting. It is an unwarranted leap to imagine that the meaning of "those in the flesh cannot submit to God" includes not being able to believe a news report. Do you really think that people, who can be convinced to believe anything, are incapable of believing that God wants them to have eternal life? Adam violated his ONLY nature when he was created VERY GOOD. He didn't even have dual natures as we do now... so not only was he good, but he didn't even know evil. He had only a good, divine nature and he violated that nature to commit the first sin. Then, his eyes were opened and he then knew good and evil (had both natures). So your assumption that a man cannot violate his dominant nature - when he knows both good and evil - is demonstrably false. You would be admitting that EVIL is more powerful than Good... for if sin overpowered Adam's good, divine nature but righteousness cannot overpower the sin nature then what kind of weak, feckless god do you envision?

Consider:

[Gen 20:2-18 NASB95] 2 Abraham said of Sarah his wife, "She is my sister." So Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah. 3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream of the night, and said to him, "Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is married." 4 Now Abimelech had not come near her; and he said, "Lord, will You slay a nation, even [though] blameless? 5 "Did he not himself say to me, 'She is my sister'? And she herself said, 'He is my brother.' In the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my hands I have done this." 6 Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also kept you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her. 7 "Now therefore, restore the man's wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not restore [her,] know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours." 8 So Abimelech arose early in the morning and called all his servants and told all these things in their hearing; and the men were greatly frightened. 9 Then Abimelech called Abraham and said to him, "What have you done to us? And how have I sinned against you, that you have brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? You have done to me things that ought not to be done." 10 And Abimelech said to Abraham, "What have you encountered, that you have done this thing?" 11 Abraham said, "Because I thought, surely there is no fear of God in this place, and they will kill me because of my wife. 12 "Besides, she actually is my sister, the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother, and she became my wife; 13 and it came about, when God caused me to wander from my father's house, that I said to her, 'This is the kindness which you will show to me: everywhere we go, say of me, "He is my brother."'" 14 Abimelech then took sheep and oxen and male and female servants, and gave them to Abraham, and restored his wife Sarah to him. 15 Abimelech said, "Behold, my land is before you; settle wherever you please." 16 To Sarah he said, "Behold, I have given your brother a thousand pieces of silver; behold, it is your vindication before all who are with you, and before all men you are cleared." 17 Abraham prayed to God, and God healed Abimelech and his wife and his maids, so that they bore [children.] 18 For the LORD had closed fast all the wombs of the household of Abimelech because of Sarah, Abraham's wife.​

First question: was Abimelech saved/born again/regenerated/indwelled by the Holy Spirit? Second question: did Abimelech submit to the commandment/will of God? Followup: if he did submit, did he submit in spirit or in flesh?

[Rom 8:7 NASB95] 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so,]​

Abimelech submitted his flesh to the command of God. Interestingly God gave him a choice; submit and live or resist and die. If Rom 8:7 meant what you claim it means, this would have been impossible. Why did he submit his flesh? Because of what occurred in his mind -- because of his dream.

The mind is the place the Spirit and Flesh overlap. It is the battleground between good and evil.

[Rom 7:22-25 NASB95] 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.​

The mind is the place where good and evil overlap as well. For God said "man has become like one of us to KNOW both good and evil."

Enter the gospel; as we saw with Abimelech a righteous word to the mind can give a man the ability to make a choice to do what is right without being indwelled or regenerated.

[Rom 1:16 NASB95] 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.​

[Rom 10:17 NASB95] 17 So faith [comes] from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

[Gal 3:8 NASB95] 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."​

In his fallen, unregenerate state, God preached the gospel to Abraham and he believed the gospel and was credited with righteousness after believing.

 

[AbbaLove]

In his fallen, unregenerate state, God preached the gospel to Abraham and he believed the gospel and was credited with righteousness after believing.

If that is really true would it not support what is referred to as "Calvinism" like nothing before. In other words you believe GOD chooses His called out chosen ones (like Abraham) who according to your 'opinion' had the GREAT benefit (foreknowledge) of being preached the "gospel" by GOD; while in a "fallen, unregenerate" state.

If that is true it not only enabled Abraham's Trust in GOD, but also his Faith in the coming Salvation of the Lamb of GOD for mankind. Was Abraham truly chosen of GOD (predestined) even before Abraham was born ?

The Apostles didn't grasp/comprehend the scope of the gospel until after they were baptized with the indwelling regenerative presence of the Holy Spirit ...

Titus 3:5
He saved us not by works of righteousness which we had done, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration, and by the renewing of the Holy Ghost,
1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received from Him abideth in you, and ye have no need that any man teach you. But as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.​

Trust (?OT?) = Justification
Faith (?NT?) = Sanctification (was Abraham also Sanctified)​

If as you believe then Abraham had a great advantage having foreknowledge of the "gospel". That would surely increase his Trust and Faith having been preached the "gospel" by GOD and by Faith Abraham believed and it was counted unto him as Righteousness.

Seems like that would take a supernatural Faith by Abraham (fallen, unregenerative) that wasn't even possible by the Apostles until they received the indwelling presence of HIS Spirit on Shavuot (Pentecost).

 

[Gup20]

​

If that is really true would it not support what is referred to as "Calvinism" like nothing before. In other words you believe GOD chooses His called out chosen ones (like Abraham) who according to your 'opinion' had the GREAT benefit (foreknowledge) of being preached the "gospel" by GOD; while in a "fallen, unregenerate" state.

If that is true it not only enabled Abraham's Trust in GOD, but also his Faith in the coming Salvation of the Lamb of GOD for mankind. Was Abraham truly chosen of GOD (predestined) even before Abraham was born ?

The Apostles didn't grasp/comprehend the scope of the gospel until after they were baptized with the indwelling regenerative presence of the Holy Spirit ...

Titus 3:5
He saved us not by works of righteousness which we had done, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration, and by the renewing of the Holy Ghost,
1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received from Him abideth in you, and ye have no need that any man teach you. But as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.​

Trust (?OT?) = Justification
Faith (?NT?) = Sanctification (was Abraham also Sanctified)​

If as you believe then Abraham had a great advantage having foreknowledge of the "gospel". That would surely increase his Trust and Faith having been preached the "gospel" by GOD and by Faith Abraham believed and it was counted unto him as Righteousness.

Seems like that would take a supernatural Faith by Abraham (fallen, unregenerative) that wasn't even possible by the Apostles until they received the indwelling presence of HIS Spirit on Shavuot (Pentecost).

It is the hearing of the gospel which gives one the power to believe the gospel, not the indwelling or regeneration of the Holy Spirit. Deuteronomy says we don't need heaven to help us hear the gospel and believe... it says its not too difficult for us to make the choice on our own.

[Deu 30:1, 6, 11-15, 19 NASB95] 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, ... 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. ... 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

The context here is "circumcision of the heart" which is the indwelling or regeneration of the Holy Spirit. Three (3) times God says that this is a choice He sets before us, and this is not too difficult for us to choose, the choice is not made for us in heaven. It says we do not need heaven to come make us hear it and believe it. Paul says of this passage, this is the choice which is regarding the righteousness which comes by faith, and that it is the word of faith that he is preaching.

[Rom 10:5-11 NASB95] 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART" that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."​

So it is not supernatural faith... it is the unregenerate faith of a depraved man. This faith qualifies us as a descendant of Abraham, and once qualified we inherit righteousness as an inheritance.

[Gal 3:6-9 NASB95] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

[Rom 4:16-17 NASB95] 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.​

We become 'chosen' by becoming part of the group 'Abraham's seed' or "Abrahams descendants." That group has open enrollment based on if you believe the gospel. But just as any person born into teh nation of Israel is an Israeli, any person born into spiritual Israel is a descendant of Abraham. Just as God didn't pick each member of the nation of Israel individually, but the nation as a whole, so too are we chosen when we join the group.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

Nehemiah 9:7
You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
8 You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.

John 6:64
But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

1Peter 1:2
[chosen] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.​

So it is God's promise to Abraham which motivates Him to choose Abraham's descendants, not the faith of the descendants. Their faith just qualifies them as an heir of the promise. You don't need regeneration or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to qualify for human adoption.

 

[Mark Quayle]

It is the hearing of the gospel which gives one the power to believe the gospel, not the indwelling or regeneration of the Holy Spirit. Deuteronomy says we don't need heaven to help us hear the gospel and believe... it says its not too difficult for us to make the choice on our own.

[Deu 30:1, 6, 11-15, 19 NASB95] 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, ... 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. ... 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

The context here is "circumcision of the heart" which is the indwelling or regeneration of the Holy Spirit. Three (3) times God says that this is a choice He sets before us, and this is not too difficult for us to choose, the choice is not made for us in heaven. It says we do not need heaven to come make us hear it and believe it. Paul says of this passage, this is the choice which is regarding the righteousness which comes by faith, and that it is the word of faith that he is preaching.

[Rom 10:5-11 NASB95] 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART" that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."​

So it is not supernatural faith... it is the unregenerate faith of a depraved man. This faith qualifies us as a descendant of Abraham, and once qualified we inherit righteousness as an inheritance.

[Gal 3:6-9 NASB95] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

[Rom 4:16-17 NASB95] 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.​

We become 'chosen' by becoming part of the group 'Abraham's seed' or "Abrahams descendants." That group has open enrollment based on if you believe the gospel. But just as any person born into teh nation of Israel is an Israeli, any person born into spiritual Israel is a descendant of Abraham. Just as God didn't pick each member of the nation of Israel individually, but the nation as a whole, so too are we chosen when we join the group.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

Nehemiah 9:7
You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
8 You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.

John 6:64
But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

1Peter 1:2
[chosen] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.​

So it is God's promise to Abraham which motivates Him to choose Abraham's descendants, not the faith of the descendants. Their faith just qualifies them as an heir of the promise. You don't need regeneration or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to qualify for human adoption.

Who gives anyone "ears to hear" the Gospel? It is really that simple.

 

[Gup20]

Who gives anyone "ears to hear" the Gospel? It is really that simple.

[Eph 1:13-14 KJV] 13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.​

The hearing & believing comes PRIOR to the indwelling/regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Mark Quayle]

[Eph 1:13-14 KJV] 13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.​

The hearing & believing comes PRIOR to the indwelling/regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

Ha! Makes me think of the headlines so often saying things like, "Man Dies After Being Beheaded by Machine". Your insistence on sequential use of the principles does not allow for the plain causative use of WHO is doing this work in anyone. Yet, believe it or not, even a sequential use, the words 'sealed with' and 'trusted' do not have to refer to the original faith and work of God from within the regenerated. One could almost say that the regenerated were sealed with the Spirit of God from the foundation of the world. The CAUSE of the faith and sealing remains God. Not man. (And not Abraham).

Maybe it would be worthwhile to do an open-minded study of just what the Gospel is, and what is what is referred to as 'the Power of the Gospel'.

 

[Gup20]

Ha! Makes me think of the headlines so often saying things like, "Man Dies After Being Beheaded by Machine". Your insistence on sequential use of the principles does not allow for the plain causative use of WHO is doing this work in anyone. Yet, believe it or not, even a sequential use, the words 'sealed with' and 'trusted' do not have to refer to the original faith and work of God from within the regenerated. One could almost say that the regenerated were sealed with the Spirit of God from the foundation of the world. The CAUSE of the faith and sealing remains God. Not man. (And not Abraham).

Maybe it would be worthwhile to do an open-minded study of just what the Gospel is, and what is what is referred to as 'the Power of the Gospel'.

We don't have to wonder what the cause or reason is, Jesus tells us what the reason is for who is chosen at the beginning of the world:

[Jhn 6:64-65 NASB95] 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."​

 

[Mark Quayle]

We don't have to wonder what the cause or reason is, Jesus tells us what the reason is for who is chosen at the beginning of the world:

[Jhn 6:64-65 NASB95] 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."​

The very passage you try to use stares your claim to self-determination right in the face, in that no one can come to Christ unless it has been granted him by the Father.

 

[Gup20]

The very passage you try to use stares your claim to self-determination right in the face, in that no one can come to Christ unless it has been granted him by the Father.

This comment just demonstrates you've never actually read John 6:64.

[Jhn 6:64-65 NASB95] 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."​

This passage sets up a "cause and effect" relationship between faith (belief) and who can come to the Father. Jesus knew from the beginning who did not believe, and for this reason (because of their lack of faith) He said they couldn't come. So the reason they couldn't come was because they didn't believe. This makes the 'coming' dependent on the belief, not the other way around. So the faith is the cause and the coming to Christ & the Father is the effect. This is exactly the opposite of what Calvinists try to say John 6:44 and 6:65 mean... notice Calvinists never recite 6:64 because it tells the "why" and shows us that Calvinists are intentionally taking the verse out of context to change the meaning.

For your interpretation to be correct it would have to say 'there are some who cannot come and for this reason (they are forbidden from coming) I said you did not believe.' But that is the opposite of what it actually says.

 

[Mark Quayle]

This comment just demonstrates you've never actually read John 6:64.

[Jhn 6:64-65 NASB95] 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."​

This passage sets up a "cause and effect" relationship between faith (belief) and who can come to the Father. Jesus knew from the beginning who did not believe, and for this reason (because of their lack of faith) He said they couldn't come. So the reason they couldn't come was because they didn't believe. This makes the 'coming' dependent on the belief, not the other way around. So the faith is the cause and the coming to Christ & the Father is the effect. This is exactly the opposite of what Calvinists try to say John 6:44 and 6:65 mean... notice Calvinists never recite 6:64 because it tells the "why" and shows us that Calvinists are intentionally taking the verse out of context to change the meaning.

For your interpretation to be correct it would have to say 'there are some who cannot come and for this reason (they are forbidden from coming) I said you did not believe.' But that is the opposite of what it actually says.

Are you the one who claimed to have the right view due to the longevity of your study? Disdain doesn't help your argument. I've "actually read John 6:64" as often as you have. Maybe even twice as often.

In your use you have cause-and-effect backwards, as usual. You didn't say it, but it seems you suppose that the reason coming to him is granted by the father is because they have qualified or something by having faith, (and that, I guess, self-engendered —not also a gift? Or do they qualify having self-engendered faith through Abraham?). Well, what is granted to them is the faith, and so as a result, the "coming-to-him" is also granted to them by the Father.

 

[AbbaLove]

Who gives anyone "ears to hear" the Gospel? It is really that simple.

Thank you for your "Like" on my previous post. I don't think Gup20 really disagrees with your post ... other than to disagree for the sake of disagreeing.

The hearing & believing comes PRIOR to the indwelling/regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

What makes you think Mark would disagree with your post? Yet you'd have us believe he disagrees when you have no proof with your purpose being a false accusation (of the enemy).

Does your disagreement (Free Will Challenge) have something to do with Calvinism theology vs Arminianism theology? Christian theology has probably done more harm than good causing congregations to split with the result being all of todays Christian denominations. Each one thinking they have the right understanding of mans' relatioship with GOD and HIS relationship to man (interpretation of scripture).

Question To Both: Do you think it impossible for GOD in HIS OWN WAY to bridge the gap? Why does it have to be one or the other (Calvinism vs Arminianism)? If it isn't this theology than what [Free Will] theology do you find such reason to differ as if it's a matter of Life & Death ?

Have you ever considered the possibility that religious differences in Christian theology are more man's doing than the LORD'S doing? Maybe you both are right. With GOD all things are possible. Used to get asked what denomination i belonged to and i would say "Christian" and get a response like "Oh Really". So now i say "Messianic Christian" which results in a variety of responses with some saying "That's not a denomination" and so be it.

NOTE: You don't need to answer because you both want to disagree instead of finding common ground .... the possibility that you both are right in your own way.

 

[Gup20]

Are you the one who claimed to have the right view due to the longevity of your study? Disdain doesn't help your argument. I've "actually read John 6:64" as often as you have. Maybe even twice as often.

In your use you have cause-and-effect backwards, as usual. You didn't say it, but it seems you suppose that the reason coming to him is granted by the father is because they have qualified or something by having faith, (and that, I guess, self-engendered —not also a gift? Or do they qualify having self-engendered faith through Abraham?). Well, what is granted to them is the faith, and so as a result, the "coming-to-him" is also granted to them by the Father.

I’ve already unpacked your flawed notion that faith is a gift.

Ephesians 2:8 (NASB20) For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;​

In this passage, “you” is the subject and “have been saved” is the predicate. Both “by grace” and “through faith” are prepositions and in Greek are feminine. The term “gift of God” is neuter. In Greek the form follows a thought throughout the whole verse, so a gender change indicates a new thought or a separate thought. “You have been saved” is masculine. So by changing to neuter, “it is the gift of God” refers to the whole process of being saved through faith by grace. In English the pronoun “it” should refer to the Subject & its predicate, not to a proposition. So both languages tell us that the interpretation that faith is the gift is an utterly wrong interpretation.