Free Will and universal purpose

[Spherical Time]

If you believe that God created man with a purpose:

Are all men created with an identical purpose?

If all men were created with identical purpose, does this extend to women as well? For instance, if the purpose of men was to glory the existence of God, but women are to not speak in church nor hold dominion over a man, then isn't there a difference in the purpose of men and the purpose of women?

Are there more subtle gradients? Perhaps God created you in order to do something, like cure cancer. Obviously, if you have free will, you have the option of not curing cancer. How do you determine whether something is part of God's plan or not? After all, curing cancer through medical science is beyond the scope of the Bible.

But if one person is born to cure cancer, perhaps another person is born to wash floors or to tend to a house or even to take holy orders. How do you determine what your calling is? Is it just a feeling, and if so, can you reconcile this feeling with other people's feelings, or do you believe that everyone must feel the same thing in response to the same stimuli.

 

[elman]

If you believe that God created man with a purpose:

Are all men created with an identical purpose?

If all men were created with identical purpose, does this extend to women as well? For instance, if the purpose of men was to glory the existence of God, but women are to not speak in church nor hold dominion over a man, then isn't there a difference in the purpose of men and the purpose of women?

Are there more subtle gradients? Perhaps God created you in order to do something, like cure cancer. Obviously, if you have free will, you have the option of not curing cancer. How do you determine whether something is part of God's plan or not? After all, curing cancer through medical science is beyond the scope of the Bible.

But if one person is born to cure cancer, perhaps another person is born to wash floors or to tend to a house or even to take holy orders. How do you determine what your calling is? Is it just a feeling, and if so, can you reconcile this feeling with other people's feelings, or do you believe that everyone must feel the same thing in response to the same stimuli.

The purpose for which everyone exists is to be loving. The details on how we are to do that differ.

 

[Spherical Time]

The purpose for which everyone exists is to be loving. The details on how we are to do that differ.

Should we then respect the differing details, or do you believe that there is a right way or a wrong way? Who gets to decide what the correct interpretation of your details are? Do you get to decide for yourself? What if I disagree with the way that you are being "loving?"

 

[elman]

Should we then respect the differing details, or do you believe that there is a right way or a wrong way? Who gets to decide what the correct interpretation of your details are? Do you get to decide for yourself? What if I disagree with the way that you are being "loving?"

It does not matter if you disagree or not if I am being loving. There is a possibility that we can appear to be doing something loving when we are not, but most of the time it is not difficult to tell what is loving and what is not.

 

[Spherical Time]

It does not matter if you disagree or not if I am being loving. There is a possibility that we can appear to be doing something loving when we are not, but most of the time it is not difficult to tell what is loving and what is not.

How do you decide then, conscience?

 

[elman]

How do you decide then, conscience?

How do you decide that feeding a hungry person is the loving thing to do? You were born with that knowledge. All humans have it unless they are mentally impaired.

 

[Spherical Time]

How do you decide that feeding a hungry person is the loving thing to do? You were born with that knowledge. All humans have it unless they are mentally impaired.

If you are given a loaf of break to carry to a family who will pay you handsomely for it, enough to buy five more loaves of bread, is giving it to a hungry person on the street still the loving thing to do with it? Or should you walk by him now so that you may feed him and four others later?

Should you take a loaf of bread if it is your only support? After all, if you work, you can provide for others too, so if you don't keep any for yourself, is that still loving others? You've just given a man a fish, instead of keeping the fisherman alive.

 

[Spherical Time]

I suppose no one is interested in discussing the morality of "the gray area" then. Too bad.

 

[billmcelligott]

Impatience is not a universal deficientcy.

Interesting you used five loaves and fish as your example. Is there more to come?

Free Will and universal purpose

Can you have both? Free will by its own determination will give every individual a seperate purpose. Unless of course every individual has the same Free Will.

What do you think?

 

[skinner]

If you believe that God created man with a purpose:

Are all men created with an identical purpose?.

I beleive that all men are created to glorify God.

If all men were created with identical purpose, does this extend to women as well? For instance, if the purpose of men was to glory the existence of God, but women are to not speak in church nor hold dominion over a man, then isn't there a difference in the purpose of men and the purpose of women??
.

No, I think the purpose is the same, the means may or may not be different.

Are there more subtle gradients? Perhaps God created you in order to do something, like cure cancer. Obviously, if you have free will, you have the option of not curing cancer. How do you determine whether something is part of God's plan or not? After all, curing cancer through medical science is beyond the scope of the Bible.
.

Ahh...now we are getting somewhere. I think it's much more simple than people make it. What is your passion in life? God gave you a desire to do...something for Him. It's up to you to ask what.

But if one person is born to cure cancer, perhaps another person is born to wash floors or to tend to a house or even to take holy orders. How do you determine what your calling is? Is it just a feeling, and if so, can you reconcile this feeling with other people's feelings, or do you believe that everyone must feel the same thing in response to the same stimuli.

Good questions. Not all are called to "fulltime Christian service." I think sometimes too much emphasis is placed on all Christians being ministers. Some of us need to do the menial tasks, too, and they are JUST as important. Again, it's your heart's desire. If you are a child of God, your heart has been transformed-Listen to it!

 

[Spherical Time]

Impatience is not a universal deficientcy.

Interesting you used five loaves and fish as your example. Is there more to come?

Can you have both? Free will by its own determination will give every individual a seperate purpose. Unless of course every individual has the same Free Will.

What do you think?

I would tend to agree, but I don't think that we can say, from experience, that every individual has the same free will because we will act differently in different circumstances.

Incidentally, the reason that I said that is because the thread was already off the page and I was interested in "bumping" it.

I beleive that all men are created to glorify God.

No, I think the purpose is the same, the means may or may not be different.
Ahh...now we are getting somewhere. I think it's much more simple than people make it. What is your passion in life? God gave you a desire to do...something for Him. It's up to you to ask what.

Interesting, my passion in life is the truth, and I do not find it in Christianity. Although I am not particularly interested in preaching deconversion, I find that looking at things through a humanistic and realistic and sometimes scientific way is my passion. Can you still argue that such activities glorify God?

Good questions. Not all are called to "fulltime Christian service." I think sometimes too much emphasis is placed on all Christians being ministers. Some of us need to do the menial tasks, too, and they are JUST as important. Again, it's your heart's desire. If you are a child of God, your heart has been transformed-Listen to it!

I also think that too much empasis is placed on Christians as ministers of their faiths. But, the ultimate question is, in this conversation, and I think that I've struggled to find it, "Do you believe in a gray area?" After all, any act in the real world can be reduced to both black and white consequences.

 

[skinner]

Interesting, my passion in life is the truth, and I do not find it in Christianity. Although I am not particularly interested in preaching deconversion, I find that looking at things through a humanistic and realistic and sometimes scientific way is my passion. Can you still argue that such activities glorify God?

I also think that too much empasis is placed on Christians as ministers of their faiths. But, the ultimate question is, in this conversation, and I think that I've struggled to find it, "Do you believe in a gray area?" After all, any act in the real world can be reduced to both black and white consequences.

No, I was specifically talking about Christians. This is not meant as a put-down-so take it as my point of veiw or whatever. My premise is that once the heart is transformed ( conversion), than a person can be confidant that the passion they are given is from God.
(And again, this may be anything from ministry to cleaning fish tanks.)
I think the truth is what we are all searching for and wish you good fortune on your journey.
The only gray area I would think-would be that period in our lives when we are waiting on God. Sometimes, even if we know our passion, the next step to take is unclear to us.

 

[Spherical Time]

No, I was specifically talking about Christians. This is not meant as a put-down-so take it as my point of veiw or whatever. My premise is that once the heart is transformed ( conversion), than a person can be confidant that the passion they are given is from God.
(And again, this may be anything from ministry to cleaning fish tanks.)
I think the truth is what we are all searching for and wish you good fortune on your journey.
The only gray area I would think-would be that period in our lives when we are waiting on God. Sometimes, even if we know our passion, the next step to take is unclear to us.

Take the example above, is there any gray area there?

Out of curiosity, does it have to be a specific branch of Christianity that you have to convert too before your passion becomes the will of God?

 

[billmcelligott]

ST said :
Incidentally, the reason that I said that is because the thread was already off the page and I was interested in "bumping" it.

Yes but I could not resist. And you suceeded.

 

[craig_on_fire]

I'm glad we have people like you who speak their mind, because christians have for too long reduced things to black and white. There's almost always a gray area!

I've been personally trying to work out what God's purpose/plan is for me... was he calling me to do something? What if I mess it up and choose the wrong thing? In fact if that is the case then how many people 'miss their calling?'

What I've found is that yes the purpose of existance is to worship God and enjoy his presence forever.
He calls us to love. I'm not going to get into the gray area here I haven't worked them out (and probably never will).
I believe that God puts his will in your heart, I don't believe only Christians here from God. I believe that God is active in EVERY person. God created us and sustains us. So he must be present within all of us. We all are made in his image and reflect something of his image. Some more than others (not neccesarily if you're a christian btw!)
I now see life as, I've got passions for certain things, I've been equipped with certain gifts and talents, God's now giving me the choice to get 'stuck in' to his world. Free-will right? God's there whatever we do.

 

[Spherical Time]

I'm glad we have people like you who speak their mind, because christians have for too long reduced things to black and white. There's almost always a gray area!

Agreed.

I've been personally trying to work out what God's purpose/plan is for me... was he calling me to do something? What if I mess it up and choose the wrong thing? In fact if that is the case then how many people 'miss their calling?'

In my opinion, questions like that are what are going to lead to a good answer. Granted, I may have a different calling, but it's always the people that are white/black that make me think that I must always reconsider. In the words of one of my famous writers "Choose again." (Sorry for the obscure reference.)

What I've found is that yes the purpose of existance is to worship God and enjoy his presence forever.

Out of curiosity, how do you reconcile my views with your own? Am I wrong? Am I misguided? If so, is it your duty to convert me even if I don't wish to covert?

He calls us to love. I'm not going to get into the gray area here I haven't worked them out (and probably never will).

Completely? I agree, but I think that you should be more positive, someday you'll probably have at least a fair understanding of love, one way or another.

I believe that God puts his will in your heart, I don't believe only Christians here from God. I believe that God is active in EVERY person. God created us and sustains us. So he must be present within all of us. We all are made in his image and reflect something of his image. Some more than others (not neccesarily if you're a christian btw!)

Interesting statement, one that I've agreed to a few times recently.

I now see life as, I've got passions for certain things, I've been equipped with certain gifts and talents, God's now giving me the choice to get 'stuck in' to his world. Free-will right? God's there whatever we do.

What if those talents would put you in a gray area? What if those gifts and talents, and passions run contrary to God's will as expressed in the Bible? Which would you rather take as the basis for your convictions, your gifts, talents and passion as inspired by God or His will as expressed in the Bible?

 

[skinner]

If you are given a loaf of break to carry to a family who will pay you handsomely for it, enough to buy five more loaves of bread, is giving it to a hungry person on the street still the loving thing to do with it? Or should you walk by him now so that you may feed him and four others later?

This sounds like a matter of common sense. If you can multiply what you are given, by all means-of course. Assuming that your motives are pure, otherwise you will multiply your profit and then "forget" to give to others. Some matters require time, patience and prayer to decide and some are obvious.

 

[skinner]

Take the example above, is there any gray area there?

Out of curiosity, does it have to be a specific branch of Christianity that you have to convert too before your passion becomes the will of God?

Hmmm...no...and perhaps I should go into this a little deeper. The passion that I speak of can certainly take time to understand, and it may take time for us to believe that it comes from God. The struggle here is between our heart and our flesh. (confused yet?)
The reason I say that the heart must be tranformed first, is simple. If not, in most cases, you're going to go with the desires of the flesh instead of the pure desire that God puts in your heart-the one he created you for. And as Christians, we never follow that passion perfectly. This-I think- is where the so called gray area comes in. We can't always tell if what we feel is coming from the world, the flesh, and the devil or from God. So, we walk around in a state of constant confusion.
Without going into too much detail-first we need to acknowledge that we are opposed-or we will never understand where the "other" feelings come from.
One hint-if the feeling is basically "I can't do this, I'm no good"-it isn't coming from God.
Also, I agree that non-Christians sometimes accomplish great and good things and sometimes non-Christians are in reality more Christ-like in their actions than some Christians.
Gandi would be a good example of someone who followed many of Christ's teachings to the letter, but never converted.

 

[craig_on_fire]

Agreed.

In my opinion, questions like that are what are going to lead to a good answer. Granted, I may have a different calling, but it's always the people that are white/black that make me think that I must always reconsider. In the words of one of my famous writers "Choose again." (Sorry for the obscure reference.)

Out of curiosity, how do you reconcile my views with your own? Am I wrong? Am I misguided? If so, is it your duty to convert me even if I don't wish to covert?

Completely? I agree, but I think that you should be more positive, someday you'll probably have at least a fair understanding of love, one way or another.

Interesting statement, one that I've agreed to a few times recently.


What if those talents would put you in a gray area? What if those gifts and talents, and passions run contrary to God's will as expressed in the Bible? Which would you rather take as the basis for your convictions, your gifts, talents and passion as inspired by God or His will as expressed in the Bible?

No I'd never say you were wrong or misguided. How arrogant would that be? If I don't know all the answers myself, then what right do I have to go around telling you that my beliefs are 'better' than yours?

As for talents and gifts... yes they probably do put me in the gray area. Here's an example: I believe God has anointed me to preach. Now this is something I am very passionate about and have had opportunities to do. But there's always been something within me craving attention. Now what I struggle with is 'does God want me to do this or is it because I love getting up front and having all eyes on me?' Does God want me to preach so that I gain popularity or so I can increase my ego? Does that go against God's will in the bible? I'm not claiming any higher importance or knowledge than you. I deal with the similar issues that you do.