Free Will and the Sovereignty of God

[amariselle]

That passage is not about salvation. It was to the church in the book of Revelation chapter 3, Jesus was calling the church in Laodicea to stop being lukewarm. It is an often misquoted and misapplied passage.

Again, it demonstrates that people absolutely have "free will."

Jesus does not invite people to be saved.

Of course He does.

He effectually and sufficiently saves them.

Absolutely. I never said anything about salvation in Christ being insufficient or ineffectual, now did I?

If Jesus is going to save someone, He will bust down that door. He is not some timid beggar looking for a handout.

This is a blatant mis-characterization of what I wrote. I never said He is anything of the kind, as you well know.

 

[Albion]

Hi Dan,
Yes I can see what you're saying.

He is sovereign but can't he be sovereign enough to let us choose Christ?
Then it's up to him to decide whether we are genuine. Ultimately it is in his hands, but he knows the outcome already because he is outside time and space.

As he knows us before we were born then this means he knows whether we will accept christ.
So he made us to either accept him or not. So I don't know why he would make people he knew wouldn't accept Christ and be condemned to hell.

Bit of a ramble that, hope it makes some sense.

No. Many people reason that way, but the Calvinist would say that for God to know the future and for him to order future events are two quite different things.

 

[David_AB]

No Calvinist I know of, nor from the writings of John Calvin, denies that we have free will. To say that Calvinists deny free will is a misrepresentation. We have free will, but our will is enslaved to sin, apart from the work of the grace of God.

What we do not have is autonomous free will. God is the only one who has autonomous free will.

Hi Joe,
Yes, that's what I was trying to say:
"I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) what Calvinists mean is that we have no free will where our sin nature is concerned"

So not NO free will at all but no free will where our sin nature is concerned.
I understand that.

 

[JoeP222w]

It shows that mankind most definitely has "free will."

I don't disagree that man has free will. But man's will is enslaved to sin before God does the work of grace in his or her heart.

 

[sdowney717]

Hi Joe,
Yes, that's what I was trying to say:
"I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) what Calvinists mean is that we have no free will where our sin nature is concerned"

So not NO free will at all but no free will where our sin nature is concerned.
I understand that.

You transition from a slave of sin, to being a slave of righteousness.
Christ set you free from sin and death, but you become God's slave, there are no free moral agents. You can not do whatever you wish, there are consequences.
Luke 12:47-49 New King James Version (NKJV)
47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

 

[amariselle]

Romans 9:18-23 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

Hypothetical questions to show the truth of God's sovereignty. Those verses do not say He has created anyone to be damned to Hell for all eternity. We can see from Scripture that mankind hardens their hearts to God and His ways and eventually He will give them over to what the desire. And of course He knows before hand precisely who will do so, and He works all things together according to His perfect will, purposes and plans.

So this begs the question, then why do people perish?

Because they do not turn to Him for salvation. As such, the fault quite obviously lies with them and not with Him. The way is indeed narrow and few find it. Not few have been chosen for salvation and the rest chosen for Hell by God who apparently created them for no other purpose. (According to Calvinism).

Are God's desires unfulfilled?

How many times did Israel rebel and disobey throughout the OT? God's plans and purposes always come to pass regardless. Mankind cannot thwart God's divine and perfect will.

God is not successful in what He attempts?

Of course He is. I never said otherwise. He did indeed do everything necessary to save. It is finished!.

Is God eternally disappointed that He was not able to save some?

See, this question is not correct to begin with. If most people or even one person rejects salvation in Christ, that is not God's failure, by man's.

 

[JoeP222w]

Again, it demonstrates that people absolutely have "free will."

Again, I don't disagree that man has free will. But man's will is enslaved to sin before God does the work of grace in his or her heart.

Of course He does.

Which passage does Jesus "invite" (explicit or implied) or that salvation (once one is "invited") can be refused?

Absolutely. I never said anything about salvation in Christ being insufficient or ineffectual, now did I?

You are basically saying that if you believe that Jesus offers salvation and yet people who are called by Jesus reject Him.

John 6:37-40 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. (38) For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. (39) And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. (40) For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

This is a blatant mis-characterization of what I wrote. I never said He is anything of the kind, as you well know.

It is implied when someone uses the Revelation passage as an invitation to salvation. Not a mischaracterization.

 

[amariselle]

I don't disagree that man has free will. But man's will is enslaved to sin before God does the work of grace in his or her heart.

I did not deny that it is a work of God that frees us from sin. This does not mean, however, that mankind has no ability to respond to the Gospel. We can see from Scripture that we do.

 

[JoeP222w]

Hi Joe,
Yes, that's what I was trying to say:
"I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) what Calvinists mean is that we have no free will where our sin nature is concerned"

So not NO free will at all but no free will where our sin nature is concerned.
I understand that.

Ok, thanks for clarifying.

 

[amariselle]

Which passage does Jesus "invite" (explicit or implied) or that salvation (once one is "invited") can be refused?

There are plenty of passages. Jesus had real relationship with people, He taught them, He called them. He mourned over Jerusalem for their refusal to come to Him. He invited all who are weary and heavy laden to come to Him and find rest. He was clearly not talking to lifeless puppets or pre-programmed robots.

You are basically saying that if you believe that Jesus offers salvation and yet people who are called by Jesus reject Him.

Salvation is indeed available to all. Christ died for the world. Many will reject Him. That is on them and not on Him.

John 6:37-40 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. (38) For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. (39) And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. (40) For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

All who believe are indeed given to the Son. God knows the end from the beginning and He knows precisely who will believe.

It is implied when someone uses the Revelation passage as an invitation to salvation. Not a mischaracterization.

It is a mis-characterization. I was using the passage to show that mankind has free will, not to argue about salvation. I did not imply that Christ is a "beggar looking for a handout", you chose to read that into what I wrote.

 

[JoeP222w]

Those verses do not say He has created anyone to be damned to Hell for all eternity.

I don't how you are reading it that way then. Is someone destroyed and then brought into Heaven? That makes no sense.

Not few have been chosen for salvation and the rest chosen for Hell by God who apparently created them for no other purpose. (According to Calvinism).

No, this is not according to Calvinism. The Bible numbers those who are saved as countless, not a "few". We do not know the identity of the elect of God.

Revelation 7:9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

Moreover, God created them for a purpose: as object of His righteous and just wrath.


It is also an equal ultimacy error. God does not choose people for Hell. It is man's sin nature, his natural position to be destined to Hell. They are already condemned because they are in rebellion to God.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

How many times did Israel rebel and disobey throughout the OT?

Too many and the only reason they came back to God was because of His grace and mercy.

God's plans and purposes always come to pass regardless. Mankind cannot thwart God's divine and perfect will.

I agree, but if someone has the ability to not choose salvation, that implies that man is sovereign and God is not. That is not a biblical view.

Of course He is. I never said otherwise. He did indeed do everything necessary to save. It is finished!.

Then why do you post that someone can choose not to be saved? If you are not saying that, then I stand corrected.

If most people or even one person rejects salvation in Christ, that is not God's failure, by man's.

And this goes back to the fact that if someone has the ability to reject salvation, where Jesus is truly calling them, then God's grace is not sufficient and man is sovereign over God.

 

[JoeP222w]

This does not mean, however, that mankind has no ability to respond to the Gospel.

Respond, in and of their own ability, or by the grace of God?

We do respond to the gospel of God's grace, but it comes after the work of God's regeneration of the heart.

Ephesians 2:1-5 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins (2) in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— (3) among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. (4) But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, (5) even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

 

[JoeP222w]

There are plenty of passages.

Waiting on the reference and context...

Jesus had real relationship with people, He taught them, He called them. He mourned over Jerusalem for their refusal to come to Him.

I agree. But the calling is effectual, not merely available.

Salvation is indeed available to all. Christ died for the world.

All the believing ones. And again, not merely available, but effectual.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

All who believe are indeed given to the Son. God knows the end from the beginning and He knows precisely who will believe.

Agree completely.

 

[amariselle]

I don't how you are reading it that way then. Is someone destroyed and then brought into Heaven? That makes no sense.

I don't know how you think I'm "reading it." The above makes no sense.

No, this is not according to Calvinism. The Bible numbers those who are saved as countless, not a "few". We do not know the identity of the elect of God.

I was referring to Jesus' own words about "few" finding the "narrow way."

Revelation 7:9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

That doesn't actually contradict Christ's words. But that is an entirely different topic.

Moreover, God created them for a purpose: as object of His righteous and just wrath.

God has not created anyone only to be an "object of wrath." That would not actually be "just" at all.

It is also an equal ultimacy error. God does not choose people for Hell. It is man's sin nature, his natural position to be destined to Hell. They are already condemned because they are in rebellion to God.

Exactly, and for people to rebel against God, they must have "free will."

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Yes. And?

Too many and the only reason they came back to God was because of His grace and mercy.

I did not say it wasn't because of His grace and mercy, did I? The point is that mankind can indeed turn from God and they can turn back to God.

I agree, but if someone has the ability to not choose salvation, that implies that man is sovereign and God is not. That is not a biblical view.

No it does not imply that man in sovereign at all. Did God lose any of His sovereignty when Adam and Eve disobeyed Him? When Israel rebelled time after time and went after other gods or complained or did what was evil in the Lord's sight? Of course not. Our rebellion does not threaten or take anything away from God's absolute sovereignty.

Then why do you post that someone can choose not to be saved? If you are not saying that, then I stand corrected.

Because someone can indeed absolutely turn to God in faith or not. That takes nothing away from God's sovereignty or Christ's finished work.

And this goes back to the fact that if someone has the ability to reject salvation, where Jesus is truly calling them, then God's grace is not sufficient and man is sovereign over God.

Incorrect. I really cannot understand the view of God's sovereignty that Calvinism has. It makes no sense to me whatsoever. If one person, or many people, reject God's sacrifice for sin, their rejection is on them, not on God. It is not God's failure or fault that people are lost.

 

[amariselle]

Respond, in and of their own ability, or by the grace of God?

We do respond to the gospel of God's grace, but it comes after the work of God's regeneration of the heart.

Ephesians 2:1-5 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins (2) in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— (3) among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. (4) But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, (5) even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

We are regenerated when we believe, by faith in God's promise of salvation, the Gospel. We are not regenerated first. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. We hear, we believe, we are saved, born again, pass from death to life and are made new creations in Christ.

The belief that God simply regenerates His chosen elect and then they are saved, apart from hearing the Gospel and believing by His word, is refuted by Scripture.

 

[amariselle]

Waiting on the reference and context...

I'm not about to go through endless Scriptures here. The full counsel of God is absolutely clear on this matter.

I agree. But the calling is effectual, not merely available.

I'm not sure where you're trying to go with that argument. God effectively called and brought Israel out of Egypt with a mighty hand and great power, they still rebelled. Does that mean God's choosing of them and all the power with which He delivered them out of slavery in Egypt was ineffectual? Hardly. They made choices, they chose to turn from Him and go after other gods. And, that was on them, not God.

All the believing ones. And again, not merely available, but effectual.

See above. God's plans and purposes always come to pass. They are effectual. That does not mean mankind cannot rebel and turn from Him.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Exactly.

Agree completely.

Good. Because I have not questioned that.

 

[Dan1988]

Hi Dan,
Yes I can see what you're saying.

He is sovereign but can't he be sovereign enough to let us choose Christ?
Then it's up to him to decide whether we are genuine. Ultimately it is in his hands, but he knows the outcome already because he is outside time and space.

As he knows us before we were born then this means he knows whether we will accept christ.
So he made us to either accept him or not. So I don't know why he would make people he knew wouldn't accept Christ and be condemned to hell.

Bit of a ramble that, hope it makes some sense.

I believe there are some attributes of our infinitely wise and infinitely powerful God, which are beyond our capacity to comprehend.

I think people are too quick to judge God, because He doesn't do things the way we want Him to. We basically say, well I don't believe in a God who would do this or that.

The Word of God says has the the thing formed have the right to ask the One who made it, why have you made me this way.

The Bible doesn't teach us to question God, it teaches us to trust and obey Him and let God be God. I believe we will eventually come to understand why God does what He does, but it will be when God reveals it to us. It's not something that we can work out using the scientific method

 

[Dan1988]

There are actually people who are neither “Arminian” nor “Calvinist” in their beliefs. I disagree with both views for various reasons.

I also have absolutely no idea how the issue of mankind’s free will would affect or threaten God’s sovereignty in any way. It doesn’t. God works all things together and He knows the end from the beginning.

I wasn't aware of any third view, Arminius holds to the view that God is not sovereign over the free will of man to choose his own destiny. Calvin held the the view that God is sovereign over all things including mans will to choose to believe.

We either believe that God predestined some to salvation (the elect of God) or we don't.

We either believe that's it's ultimately our choice if we believe the Gospel or we don't.

Please let me know how the third option works, I don't quite get it.

 

[amariselle]

I wasn't aware of any third view, Arminius holds to the view that God is not sovereign over the free will of man to choose his own destiny. Calvin held the the view that God is sovereign over all things including mans will to choose to believe.

We either believe that God predestined some to salvation (the elect of God) or we don't.

We either believe that's it's ultimately our choice if we believe the Gospel or we don't.

Please let me know how the third option works, I don't quite get it.

There is more to Calvinism and Arminianism than what you've outlined above. And there are those that disagree with elements of both views. I personally am neither Calvinist or Arminian. I don't believe God created people just to be damned for eternity, and I don't believe that we essentially save ourselves.

 

[Dan1988]

There is more to Calvinism and Arminianism than what you've outlined above. And there are those that disagree with elements of both views. I personally am neither Calvinist or Arminian. I don't believe God created people just to be damned for eternity, and I don't believe that we essentially save ourselves.

Do you have an alternative view to those two, or do you think the jury is still out and nobody really knows the truth of the matter.