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Free will and determinism

Neogaia777

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I define free will as being something that was chosen by "you", etc.

And I define you as something that transcends this world, your physical body, and any other prior antecedents or causes, etc, if there even is such a thing for any of us in this world right now, etc, and I guess that is really what I am arguing, etc, that there really isn't such a thing like that for any of us in this world right now, etc.

Right now, we are all each just a small part (each one of us each individually) of some higher beings program or programs, or memory, etc, and we can't (any of us) ever act independently of it/that ever right now, etc.

And for that being to be all-knowing, then everything here has to be deterministic going all the way back to the very beginning starting with him or it, or it or him, etc.

God Bless.
 
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stevevw

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Just to make sure that we're clear, I'm talking about subconsciously deceiving oneself while NOT being consciously aware that we are deceiving ourselves. I'm asking if you believe that we can subconsciously deceive ourselves, even because if we were consciously aware that we were lying to ourselves, then we would be aware it's a lie and subsequently that would mean we know it's not the truth, which in turn doesn't qualify as actually being deceived.

I'm qualifying "deceived" as "thinking/believing something is factually true that is factually false".
While I think there are subconscious processes which cause us to believe certain things which are not necessarily the case I don't think thats decieving ones self as deception implies some sort of knowing but denying. Even if thats rationalised deception where someone is completely convinced they are not decieving themselves.

But even if we have decieved ourself and don't know it I think theres a degree of disconnection with reality. If we dig enough we would find the person may be in denial and have rationalised the truth away to the point they truely believe they are not decieving themselves. What they say and do are not aligned, they may react in ways where the denial is being expressed in other negative ways.

Can you give me an example of what you mean.
 
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childeye 2

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The op was quite clear: '...if free will is defined as the ability to make decisions that are not determined by prior events...'

That's exactly how it was defined. And nobody has actually disputed that. There is an obvious corollary that if decisions are made which are determined by prior events, then they are not freely made. Hence no free will.
I get that. I've seen some posts here referencing atheism so I'm just here defending the faith. And this is why I'm saying the definition in the op makes it a stacked deck.

There's no way a free will could exist in the moral/immoral paradigm according to the definition in the op. When a person decides between what is moral or immoral, it doesn't matter which way they choose, it will always be caused by the event of sharing the planet with some other person.
Now if you have a problem with the definition or the conclusion then please be specific.
Specifically, my issue is theological and it's with the term free will in the op, not determinism. I don't believe the free will in the op exists in the moral/immoral paradigm. As a theist I define God as the source of the energy that forms all things, and that is why in scripture it's qualified as an axiomatic term before any imagery is added. In my psycholinguistics that would mean that God would be the Eternal power and subsequently the cause of all determinism in our temporal experience, which makes the only coherent definition of a free will, a will that is walking in God's Spirit, and God is Love.

Case in point: Some people believe mankind must have the free will defined in the op, otherwise mankind is not responsible for their actions. But in the moral/immoral choice it's love/compassion that is the impetus that moves us to care how our actions affect others, which in turn is what causes us to act responsibly.
 
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Bradskii

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I get that. I've seen some posts here referencing atheism so I'm just here defending the faith. And this is why I'm saying the definition in the op makes it a stacked deck.
We've managed to keep religion out of this for the most part. This isn't a thread intended to reject any particular religious viewpoint. And Calvinists for example believe in free will and determinism anyway. And a good friend of mine who is Catholic told me that she accepts that same position.
There's no way a free will could exist in the moral/immoral paradigm according to the definition in the op. When a person decides between what is moral or immoral, it doesn't matter which way they choose, it will always be caused by the event of sharing the planet with some other person.
Morality doesn't change. One still knows, or decides, what is right or wrong. If you come to the position that there is no free will, then you don't become amoral. You can't steal someone's car and then say 'Well, I don't have free will - I couldn't help it'. You still know it's wrong. And you still decided to steal it. There are punishments for those who do such a thing and you preferred to take a chance on not getting caught. That decision was determined. So now you'll go to jail and we'll try to convince you that you should change your ways. If we do persuade you then your acceptance of that is now one of the prior conditions so you now prefer not to steal it.
Case in point: Some people believe mankind must have the free will defined in the op, otherwise mankind is not responsible for their actions. But in the moral/immoral choice it's love/compassion that is the impetus that moves us to care how our actions affect others, which in turn is what causes us to act responsibly.
I appreciate that, but I'm personally not interested in any religious arguments for free will. Someone else might chip in, but I won't. And in any case, if you're a loving person then that was determined with no input from you. If you show compassion then you can't decide not to show it.
 
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stevevw

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From what I read, informed opinion in the field is that only the 'Hard Problem' of consciousness (Chalmers) is not, in principle, open to scientific explanation. Many aspects of conscious experience already have at least partial explanation (e.g. belief can be characterised as a persistent 'truthy' informational pattern);
What is this 'truthy' informational pattern'. There is such a thing as phenomenal belief as opposed to other beliefs that are more disconnected or superficial. Phenomenal belief involves a deeper conviction and belief based on experiences that have been integrated and confirmed to the experiencer. They have a reasoned basis despite there being no objective evidence or countering evidence.

For example those who experience NDE believe their experience was more real than everyday reality. A deeper reality. Tests have shown its not imagination, self deception or irrational but align with a genuinely real experience like everyday life. Unreal beliefs are usually disconnected and inconsistent.
but the fact of subjective experience itself, i.e. that there is something it is like to be conscious, is inevitably beyond all but correlative explanation.

Subjective experience is inherently inaccessible, and explanation is communication, i.e. inherently objective.
I am not sure what you mean by this. Subjective experience can only be understood directly from the experiencer. We can investigate the quality of experiences, their consistency overall among many experiencers and derive some factual information as to their content.
An abstract high-level correlative explanation for subjective experience might be something like, "When certain kinds of information are processed in particular ways by certain kinds of systems, there is an associated subjective experience."
But this would not be an explanation as to the nature of why or how certain kinds of information would produce subjective experience. The colorblind Mary thought experiment shows that no matter if Mary knew everything there was to know about the brain and light waves as to the experience of the color red.

It wasn't until Mary could see colors and experience red that she understood it. Then in trying to explain this no amount of information could do justice to experiencing red. In that sense Mary came to know something about reality that the information and physical processes could never tell her.
This could be narrowed down to the specifics of the requirements in much the same way as the mystery of life was unravelled and resolved, though with more difficulty (unless we can agree on a robust objective test for subjective experience!).
If your talking about the 'Life Force' once thought to eminate from non life matter I don't think the mystery of life has been solved. That is just as much a mystery as consciousness.
That doesn't follow. Knowledge is associative information resulting from the way a brain stores, retrieves, and processes sensory information. Intentions are goals derived from feelings (sometimes via reason). Agency is (generally) the capacity to act on intentions. All are compatible with physical causality & explanation.
If we go back to Mary we can see that she had all the information to rationally understand the phyical correlates and explanations but still never experienced red. When she did it was new knowledge the physical could not give her. This new knowledge, perhaps a deeper knowledge. It is this non physical experiences and knowledge of a deeper reality that is associated with free will and agency.

It injects the subject into the equation and adds a new dimension which is not disassociated from reality but becomes a part of creating reality. This is Wheelers Participatory Principle. We are part of unravelling and creating reality and not just passive machines acted upon by the physical.
That sounds more like a description of philosophical intentionality, which is not related to intent but to representation, 'aboutness', or content in mental states. On second thoughts, you described attention rather than intention...
Well first I think there is attention. We have to attend to something to become conscious of it. But then once engaged we gain a deeper knowledge of what is going on and then our intentions and choices are based on that. On knowledge the physical world could not give us. As opposed to the processes we are no aware of or give little attention to which do drive us along.
You seem to be using 'non-reductionist' as a synonym for non-physical (are you?), but it's not clear - (weak) emergence is often said to be non-reductionist, in that emergent behaviour of the mass is not predictable from an individual element of the mass, but that doesn't make it non-physical. The wetness of water is one example, Conway's 'Game of Life' is another one.
Yes thats like consciousness is an epiphenomena. But like water this is still reduced back to the physical causes. A quantum field though nothing physical is still an element of the physical.

Whereas conscious phenomena cannot be reduced to its physical components. Like radiowaves cannot be reduced to a radio box. But unlike radio waves conscious experience itself cannot be reduced to the physical.

Plus it may be yet that other phenomena like how swams of insects forming another level of phenomena may be associated with some basic form of consciousness. Water is not a good example as its basically due to molecules being more loosely packed. As opposed to tightly constituted like solid objects.
So our belief in free will is concrete evidence of our free will? We certainly participate in creating reality, we have influence in and on the world, but so does the weather...
Except the whether is random. Consciousness is focused and particular. Belief is a completely different phenomena to whether. Proper beliefs are not random or untethered. Belief involves the subjects reading of reality due to being immerced in it. Its fundemental because it can alter our reality. We can only know this by asking the subject and investigating how this works in humans.
If you're suggesting that free will is a feeling, I would agree - as Isaac Bashevis Singer said, "We must believe in free will, we have no choice".
As Toto's song goes, its more than a feeling. Feelings are more superficial. Conscious experience goes deeper, into the psyche, but also transcends our senses. Like its another set of senses or a sixth sense like they say.

I think the idea that we must believe in our free will is not just because we have no choice. That implies its not real but its better that we believe because of its practical benefit. But once again I think it goes deeper. Theres not just a superficial belief but a deeply integrated belief based on knowledge through our experiences.

We may not be able to as yet completely understand this but nevertheless our conviction and belief is justified and doesn't leave room for doubt over being a false belief due to loosely connected beliefs and secondary influences.

Chalmers has a paper I have read on phenomenal belief and explains the difference and compares its quality with sense perceptions. I will try and find it as its quite enlightening.

People tend to dismiss belief as unreliable but really everything we do involves some sort of belief. Even in the objective world for example. We cannot get outside our minds to check that there is really an objective world. For all we know we could be living in a simulation and everyone is having a mass illusion. But we believe the objective world is real.
 
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rjs330

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No, I cannot do any of those things.

But just because a being, or a couple of beings, were/are given all power, does not mean They necessarily always had all-knowledge, etc.

And before you ask, no, I do not have all-knowledge either, but can only know what was being hidden or what was being withheld from us up until now, etc, and am still limited to only being able to know as much as They knew right now, as has been forordained or predestined concerning me from/by the Father, etc.

God Bless.
So, since you are neither omnipotent nor are you omniscient you have no way of ascertaining nor understanding what it is like to be omniscient. Your understanding is limited as you admit.

You also have no way of knowing what has been predestined to you and what hasn't. And I don't have any idea what you are talking about regarding being given all power. God wasn't given anything. He always had it, that's why was able to create the universe. He always has all knowledge as well.

There is nothing to indicate he didn't.
 
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childeye 2

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While I think there are subconscious processes which cause us to believe certain things which are not necessarily the case I don't think thats decieving ones self as deception implies some sort of knowing but denying. Even if thats rationalised deception where someone is completely convinced they are not decieving themselves.

But even if we have decieved ourself and don't know it I think theres a degree of disconnection with reality. If we dig enough we would find the person may be in denial and have rationalised the truth away to the point they truely believe they are not decieving themselves. What they say and do are not aligned, they may react in ways where the denial is being expressed in other negative ways.

Can you give me an example of what you mean.
Before I give you an example, allow me to say a few things. First off, I agree with you that believing something untrue as true, will obviously cause a person to become disconnected from reality in some measure. I imagine if I had enough lies built upon lies in my psyche, some serious insanity would ensue. Think about the guy who was in chains because he continuously tried to throw himself in the fire. Scripture says there were a thousand devils living in his body who were cast out into some pigs and the pigs all ran off the end of a cliff.

Anyway, I don't believe a will/desire/choice that manifests out of belief in a lie qualifies as a free will. A deceived will does not depict freedom, but rather enslavement. Since God's Spirit that He breathed into us would be pure, then every desire to sin we ever experienced would have to come from believing a lie that somehow, we didn't see.

Moreover, it's my experience that what we believe to be true manifests emotions in accordance with that belief. Eve being beguiled by the serpent in scripture always comes to mind. Effective propaganda is about tricking the mind into subconsciously accepting a false premise without the subject consciously being aware that they've accepted one, so as to manipulate someone's feelings.

And sometimes I wonder who is living inside of me in the moral/immoral sense. And so, for an example, I was driving on the highway and this person just shot over from their lane into mine right in front of me, causing me to brake abruptly, and then they just shot over to the next lane. This caused me to be somewhat angered and judgmental and I spoke within about what a crappy driver that person was.

But then, the Holy Spirit spoke to me and said, "Not every driver is as good as you, how do you know this person isn't an elderly driver just trying to do their best? They may have had to cut in because otherwise they would miss their exit, and you and I know that you've done the same thing before."... So, I looked over at the car and sure enough, it was an old lady getting off the highway leaning forward and gripping onto the steering wheel as if for dear life. I felt like a jerk, but I was very thankful for the Holy Spirit's correction.
 
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rjs330

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The only way any being can always know which one is going to happen is only if that one (that possibility/choice) was always 100%.
It's called omniscience. God knows all things. He knows what choice you are going to make. It's not that hard.

Knowledge does not cause action.
So how can that be a choice in that case if it is/always was always known 100%?
You made the decision. That's what free will is. Knowing what choice you are going to make does not mean you had no choice to.make.
So the truth is what I told you. All-knowledge and choice cannot exist in the same place/space, and cannot co-exist.
The truth is what Bible says. Yes those things can co-exist. Knowledge is not causation.
 
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rjs330

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Just to make sure that we're clear, I'm talking about subconsciously deceiving oneself while NOT being consciously aware that we are deceiving ourselves. I'm asking if you believe that we can subconsciously deceive ourselves, even because if we were consciously aware that we were lying to ourselves, then we would be aware it's a lie and subsequently that would mean we know it's not the truth, which in turn doesn't qualify as actually being deceived.

I'm qualifying "deceived" as "thinking/believing something is factually true that is factually false".
I do t know if here is any way to actually prove if we can or can't. It's an interesting thought. I don't think we can initially convince ourselves that a lie is truth. I find it difficult outside of mental illness rhat we will immediately deceive ourselves into believing a lie. But can we eventually convince ourselves that a lie is the truth?

I don't know if there is anyway to prove or disprove
that.
 
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Neogaia777

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I give up for now.

I might as well be talking to myself here, etc.

So I guess that is what I will now do for a little while probably.

My next set of lessons will probably be on how a leader needs to exude/project confidence, etc. But I am not a very good leader though, and never was seeking to ever be a leader of anything, etc.

I merely wanted to just only be a conveyer of information, and a conveyer of information only, etc

God Bless/Later.
 
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stevevw

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Before I give you an example, allow me to say a few things. First off, I agree with you that believing something untrue as true, will obviously cause a person to become disconnected from reality in some measure. I imagine if I had enough lies built upon lies in my psyche, some serious insanity would ensue. Think about the guy who was in chains because he continuously tried to throw himself in the fire. Scripture says there were a thousand devils living in his body who were cast out into some pigs and the pigs all ran off the end of a cliff.

Anyway, I don't believe a will/desire/choice that manifests out of belief in a lie qualifies as a free will. A deceived will does not depict freedom, but rather enslavement. Since God's Spirit that He breathed into us to be pure, then every desire to sin we ever experienced would have to come from believing a lie that somehow, we didn't see.

Moreover, it's my experience that what we believe to be true manifests emotions in accordance with that belief. Eve being beguiled by the serpent in scripture always comes to mind. Effective propaganda is about tricking the mind into subconsciously accepting a false premise without the subject consciously being aware that they've accepted one, so as to manipulate someone's feelings.

And sometimes I wonder who is living inside of me in the moral/immoral sense. And so, for an example, I was driving on the highway and this person just shot over from their lane into mine right in front of me, causing me to brake abruptly, and then they just shot over to the next lane. This caused me to be somewhat angered and judgmental and I spoke within about what a crappy driver that person was.

But then, the Holy Spirit spoke to me and said, "Not every driver is as good as you, how do you know this person isn't an elderly driver just trying to do their best? They may have had to cut in because otherwise they would miss their exit, and you and I know that you've done the same thing before."... So, I looked over at the car and sure enough, it was an old lady getting off the highway leaning forward and gripping onto the steering wheel as if for dear life. I felt like a jerk, but I was very thankful for the Holy Spirit's correction.
I think there is a battle going on inside us over right and wrong and that sort of supports free will. If theres a battle then that means we have a side to choose or rather a mind and heart between. Rationality helps but ultimately its a spiritual battle between out flesh or human nature and Gods spirit.

But you could say its conscience or cognitive dissonance or even a error in thinking. Either way we can sort out what is right and fact and this makes us either guilty or not guilty of aligning with the truth of the matter. That itself implies we are also accountable.

As humans we can put ourselves in the mind of another and understand context. So it would seem strange in having all this ability and knowledge that we then say we have ultimately have no free will.

I think this is all about a quality experience rather than a quantified one. As you said theres a certain quality about deception or bias and even unconscious bias or deception. It does ultimately sit well. Theres a gut feeling something is not quite right.

Whereas I think at least some phenomenal experiences where we are more invested perhaps the quality is much higher. It integrates well and seems consistent and positive. Sort of makes sense at least to us. There is no or little doubt even though there is no physical evidence.

I like the bibles definition of faith, the evidence of things unseen. That sort of sums it up. To the experiencer, the believer they have evidence and its not imagination or deception. The same level of evidence quality as objective evidence. Except theres nothing objective.
 
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childeye 2

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We've managed to keep religion out of this for the most part. This isn't a thread intended to reject any particular religious viewpoint. And Calvinists for example believe in free will and determinism anyway. And a good friend of mine who is Catholic told me that she accepts that same position.
I'm just stating my issue with the term free will in the op by giving my reasoning why it doesn't exist in the moral/immoral paradigm. It has nothing to do with religion.
Morality doesn't change. One still knows, or decides, what is right or wrong.
If I actually know right from wrong, then I decide between doing what I know is right and wrong. But there should be no option logically speaking, otherwise right doesn't mean right and wrong doesn't mean wrong. The way you worded that, it could be misunderstood to mean right and wrong are subjective and we each decide what right and wrong means. Moreover, since morality is about caring how my actions affect others, then it won't matter if I know right from wrong, if I don't care.

Ans as pertains to knowing right from wrong, there are occasions where we can be misguided, thinking we're doing good when we're actually doing harm. Propaganda/deception is about making wrong look right and right look wrong.
If you come to the position that there is no free will, then you don't become amoral.
I understand that point. I'm saying that belief in free will as defined in the op doesn't make a person care about how their actions affect others.
You can't steal someone's car and then say 'Well, I don't have free will - I couldn't help it'. You still know it's wrong. And you still decided to steal it.
Yeah, but the minds of many thieves get off on getting away with stealing and they believe in free will. If you recall I said this earlier: There is the legalistic approach that without punishment there's no viable reason to be good, as if 'goodness' is actually naivete. It's ironic that a criminal mind could rationalize criminality based on a legalistic mindset.
There are punishments for those who do such a thing and you preferred to take a chance on not getting caught. That decision was determined. So now you'll go to jail and we'll try to convince you that you should change your ways. If we do persuade you then your acceptance of that is now one of the prior conditions so you now prefer not to steal it.
When the question is asked, why do people steal, it's not an answer to say because we have a free will. That a circular reasoning of "I did it because I can". If a person believes in legalism as the only restrainer for a person's immorality, rather than goodness, then I could see the reasoning behind the authoritarian mindset.
I appreciate that, but I'm personally not interested in any religious arguments for free will. Someone else might chip in, but I won't. And in any case, if you're a loving person then that was determined with no input from you. If you show compassion then you can't decide not to show it.
I'm not making any religious arguments for free will. I'm saying the only coherent definition of a free will would be a moral will, a will that cares how their actions affect others. Since we're talking about determinism and free will, the source of the energy that formed all things that we experience should not be viewed as religion but rather whatever caused what was determined.
 
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Bradskii

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If I actually know right from wrong, then I decide between doing what I know is right and wrong. The way you worded that, it could be misunderstood to mean right and wrong are subjective and we each decide what right and wrong means. Moreover, since morality is about caring how my actions affect others, then it won't matter if I know right from wrong, if I don't care.
Yes, you have to decide what is right and wrong. Even if someone tells you which is which, you have to decide whether they are correct. Or else you blindly follow what they say. And if you don't care if you do right or wrong then that's the type of person you are. You can't decide to care.
Ans as pertains to knowing right from wrong, there are occasions where we can be misguided, thinking we're doing good when we're actually doing harm. Propaganda/deception is about making wrong look right and right look wrong.
So sometimes you're misguided. Free will or not doesn't effect that.
I understand that point. I'm saying that belief in free will as defined in the op doesn't make a person care about how their actions affect others.
Why wouldn't it? I love my wife. I have no choice but to love her. I can't decide not to.
Yeah, but the minds of many thieves get off on getting away with stealing and they believe in free will. If you recall I said this earlier: There is the legalistic approach that without punishment there's no viable reason to be good, as if 'goodness' is actually naivete. It's ironic that a criminal mind could rationalize criminality based on a legalistic mindset.
If you don't want to risk being punished then you don't commit the crime. I thought that would be obvious. You are telling the person 'This is wrong. Do it and you'll be punished'.
When the question is asked, why do people steal, it's not an answer to say because we have a free will. That a circular reasoning of "I did it because I can".
People steal because it's an easier way to get money as opposed to working. There is a prospective punishment but they prefer to take a chance. It's all about persuading people to prefer the better option. If the punishment for stealing a car was to be hanged, drawn and quartered then car thefts would be negligible.
I'm not making any religious arguments for free will. I'm saying the only coherent definition of a free will would be a moral will, a will that cares how their actions affect others.
I think I've already said that lacking free will doesn't affect how you feel about others. If you care for someone than that fact will determine your actions.
 
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childeye 2

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I define free will as being something that was chosen by "you", etc.

And I define you as something that transcends this world, your physical body, and any other prior antecedents or causes, etc, if there even is such a thing for any of us in this world right now, etc, and I guess that is really what I am arguing, etc, that there really isn't such a thing like that for any of us in this world right now, etc.

Right now, we are all each just a small part (each one of us each individually) of some higher beings program or programs, or memory, etc, and we can't (any of us) ever act independently of it/that ever right now, etc.

And for that being to be all-knowing, then everything here has to be deterministic going all the way back to the very beginning starting with him or it, or it or him, etc.

God Bless.
In Christianity we must either conform to Christ or conform to the world. The image of God we hold to be true lives in us when we walk in His Spirit.
 
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Neogaia777

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In Christianity we must either conform to Christ or conform to the world. The image of God we hold to be true lives in us when we walk in His Spirit.
Thank you.

I'm not exactly like him, we have different personalities, but I'm doing my best to be like him according to the way that my personality can. I do have his help though, so that helps.

Thank you for the encouragement though.

I appreciate it.

If I would have known it was going to take this to truly get to know Them, then I might have "chose" differently, lol.

God Bless.
 
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childeye 2

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Yes, you have to decide what is right and wrong. Even if someone tells you which is which, you have to decide whether they are correct. Or else you blindly follow what they say. And if you don't care if you do right or wrong then that's the type of person you are. You can't decide to care.
Well, that's my point, it's caring that matters. If I know right from wrong, then logically there should be no choice/option otherwise right doesn't mean right and wrong doesn't mean wrong.
So sometimes you're misguided. Free will or not doesn't effect that.
Assuming you're referring to the op definition of Free will, of course not since it doesn't exist. But the belief that it does can misguide people.

childeye 2 said:
I understand that point. I'm saying that belief in free will as defined in the op doesn't make a person care about how their actions affect others.
Why wouldn't it? I love my wife. I have no choice but to love her. I can't decide not to.
Why wouldn't it? Because if you had a free will defined in the op you could decide not to. But since it doesn't exist, you have no choice.
If you don't want to risk being punished then you don't commit the crime. I thought that would be obvious. You are telling the person 'This is wrong. Do it and you'll be punished'.
If the thief believes in the free will defined in the op, then there is an option to take the risk. You can say do it and you'll be punished, but that's only if they're caught. In the free will I believe in there's no option since right means right and wrong means wrong and I wouldn't do it even if I wouldn't be punished.
People steal because it's an easier way to get money as opposed to working. There is a prospective punishment but they prefer to take a chance. It's all about persuading people to prefer the better option.
Exactly, that's how a thief would think and that's the type of thinking that tempts people to go astray. It is a deceived mind.

It's all about persuading people to prefer the better option.
If the punishment for stealing a car was to be hanged, drawn and quartered then car thefts would be negligible.
Not only is that projecting an unbelief in the free will I believe in, it's excessive punishment which would be wrong. The free will I'm talking about would be thinking to give charity to the poor, not thinking about how to get away with stealing a car. I don't remember if I've already asked you this before, but do you believe altruism exists?
I think I've already said that lacking free will doesn't affect how you feel about others.
Yes, you did, referencing the definition in the op. And I'm saying that belief in free will as defined in the op doesn't make a person care about how their actions affect others. But say I believed in the free will in the op, and I did not do the immoral thing out of fear of punishment, could it be said I cared about anyone other than myself?
If you care for someone than that fact will determine your actions.
Yes exactly, and I think it's incorrect to think caring is a matter of choice. It's not like people decide to cry, or show remorse, or have regrets.
 
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childeye 2

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Thank you.

I'm not exactly like him, we have different personalities, but I'm doing my best to be like him according to the way that my personality can. I do have his help though, so that helps.

Thank you for the encouragement though.

I appreciate it.

If I would have known it was going to take this to truly get to know Them, then I might have "chose" differently, lol.

God Bless.
The way I look at it, every person has their unique path away from God into sin and therefore their own unique path of repentance back unto God.

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
 
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childeye 2

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I do t know if here is any way to actually prove if we can or can't. It's an interesting thought. I don't think we can initially convince ourselves that a lie is truth. I find it difficult outside of mental illness rhat we will immediately deceive ourselves into believing a lie. But can we eventually convince ourselves that a lie is the truth?

I don't know if there is anyway to prove or disprove
that.
Well, the carnal mind thinks the greatest is the one who gets served by everyone else, while the spiritual mind thinks the greatest is the one who serves the rest.

Think about the Holy Spirit of Truth who convicts the world of sin. If He is living in me and instructing me with the power of virtue from within, and if the Truth is being preached to me from within myself, then isn't it possible I have been deceiving myself or a devil was living in me? Did I think I was wise when in fact I was a fool? I mean what else is the blind leading the blind supposed to mean?

It would be wrong to believe in a free will that wasn't gifted to me by the Holy Spirit.
 
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Neogaia777

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Well, the carnal mind thinks the greatest is the one who gets served by everyone else, while the spiritual mind thinks the greatest is the one who serves the rest.

Think about the Holy Spirit of Truth who convicts the world of sin. If He is living in me and instructing me with the power of virtue from within, and if the Truth is being preached to me from within myself, then isn't it possible I have been deceiving myself or a devil was living in me? Did I think I was wise when in fact I was a fool? I mean what else is the blind leading the blind supposed to mean?

It would be wrong to believe in a free will that wasn't gifted to me by the Holy Spirit.
A fool for Christ is never truly a fool, he (Jesus) (and the Spirit) (and the Father) makes sure of it. Even when they have done something foolish, or have acted very foolishly, it still turns out to be wiser than the wisdom of this world for the believer who has done something foolish for Christ, etc. Again He/They makes sure of it, etc.

1 Corinthians 1:17-31

1 Corinthians 2

1 Corinthians 3

And really the whole book really. (I hate taking things out of context, etc)

Also, it's hard to be decieved and truly humble at the same time. Possible maybe, but maybe only in moments of becoming puffed-up temporarily, because you lose your objectivity, etc. Other spirits may speak to you from within when you lose that, or don't keep that in it's proper perspective, and you can sometimes become temporarily decieved, etc. It's sometimes a constant battle, etc, especially with more, or a lot more, knowledge or revelation, etc, keeping yourself humble is constantly, etc. I say all of this that I have just said because I know, etc.

God Bless.
 
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rjs330

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Well, the carnal mind thinks the greatest is the one who gets served by everyone else, while the spiritual mind thinks the greatest is the one who serves the rest.
I suppose so, but does rhe carnal mind actually believe they are the greatest? Especially at rhe beginning. I find it difficult to believe that they actually think they are. Can they actually then convince themselves they are? Im.not sure we can prove that. In their deepest thoughts, when they are all alone with no one else around do they still believe they are rhe greatest or do they have doubts and know they really aren't, but enjoy be treated as if they are? Many have to constantly try and do things to prove they are.

The Bible does say that God sends a delusion so that people will believe a lie. So, I think that may be God's realm. And the rest of the time we try and convince ourselves that a lie is the truth, but in our deepest thoughts we know it's a lie. But we do it or believe it because we like the way it feels.

But like I said I don't know if there is any way to prove it one way or another because we can't know what's in the heart of man and his deepest thoughts.
 
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