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This is not a theological discussion. I won't be responding to any theological positions or religious statements.
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This is not a theological discussion. I won't be responding to any theological positions or religious statements.God is aĺl knowing omnipresent, he sees the beginning and the end, only in your miniscule of existence does free will exist, we are humans in existence under the power of the Alpha & Omega God Jesus Christ
Now just in case this still isn't clear, I'm going to try and make it even more clear.What's illogical about it is that there is absolutely nowhere in the known universe that we have yet to be able to observe that you can run the exact same conditions and get a different result. And that's also the logical argument, and the proof. Now prove me wrong about that, and I may have to revaluate my present position, but until then, there is absolutely no situation or circumstance that we know of where you can run the exact same conditions, and get a different result.
In order to get a different result you have to change something, and that is pretty much universal anywhere that we know of, and can observe, in this known observable universe, etc. And that is 100% of the time, and is a well known "fact", etc.
Take Care/God Bless.
Yes, this is a place called "Christian Forums", but the reason for all of the numerous different sub-forums here, and the individual forum threads here, is to try to narrow things down to specific topics, etc. And there are also some sub-forums that are exclusively Christian, and some that are not, and there is also a specific SoP (Statement of Purpose) posted as a kind of guidelines for each sub-forum that I suggest you look at before posting in any sub-forum, etc.The assumption here is because God knows everything is just a big puppet show were just playing it out with no hope at all.The Gospel that is preached is a gospel of hope why are we preaching it if it doesn't matter.There is no hope because all this has already been decided.Does God live in linear time just like us I doubt it isn't heaven a eternal place .Time is like a acid it eats everything up and washes it away this is a temporary existence it is death itself knocking on your door. Is this same death in heaven?
I suggest you post in some of the "for Christians only" sub-forums, as you will probably find plenty of people to agree with you there, etc.The assumption here is because God knows everything is just a big puppet show were just playing it out with no hope at all.The Gospel that is preached is a gospel of hope why are we preaching it if it doesn't matter.There is no hope because all this has already been decided.Does God live in linear time just like us I doubt it isn't heaven a eternal place .Time is like a acid it eats everything up and washes it away this is a temporary existence it is death itself knocking on your door. Is this same death in heaven?
The future is not set humanity itself can change its course but as we know no one will listen or practice what Jesus has told us to do this here is all about money now the God of the earth.Why do you think God sends his prophets to try to get us to change and did we?When they listened things changed when they didn't we know what happened.Jesus changed the course of Humanity.Its not set in stone or its a puppet show.
It doesn't mean that I have to respond to theological arguments in what is not a religious discussion.I'm really disappointed, I thought this was "Christian Forums"?
You're dangerously close to presenting a teleological perspective on the universe.
... in the grand scheme of things you are as important to the universe as the rock.
Ok I'm out if its anything goes here it the stuff I'm trying to avoid thanks for the warning.Disregard what I have said I didn't realize its a completely open thread that can go anywhere I will avoid them.
What's illogical about it is that there is absolutely nowhere in the known universe that we have yet to be able to observe that you can run the exact same conditions and get a different result.
And that's also the logical argument, and the proof.
In order to get a different result you have to change something
What's illogical about it is that there is absolutely nowhere in the known universe that we have yet to be able to observe that you can run the exact same conditions and get a different result. And that's also the logical argument, and the proof. Now prove me wrong about that, and I may have to revaluate my present position, but until then, there is absolutely no situation or circumstance that we know of where you can run the exact same conditions, and get a different result.
In order to get a different result you have to change something, and that is pretty much universal anywhere that we know of, and can observe, in this known observable universe, etc. And that is 100% of the time, and is a well known "fact", etc.
Take Care/God Bless.
I think the question is not why would it turn out the same. The answer to that is that cause and effect would determine it to be so. The more interesting question, and one that's never been answered, is why wouldn't it.I mean if determinism is correct, and we could reset reality back to the literal 'first cause', it would turn out exactly the same... with me in it. Why?
I'm a fan. It solves a couple of problems.At least give me Penrose's CCC so it'll at least change every time through.
You're obviously missing the part where I said "exact same conditions" always produce "only one in the same exact same predictable effect", which can most usually only be be produced or approximated in some kind of lab. What you are talking about is where conditions are not always the same, and are not always exact, plain and simple, etc. If they are always, and again you most usually have to approximate it in a lab, you get only one in the same exact result (or effect) 100% of the time and always, no exceptions. What you are talking about is when they are not that, etc. A coin toss for example, the conditions are never the same each and every single time and always, which is why you get a different result/effect, etc.Of course you can...flip a coin.
Let's slow things down a little....
You'll concede that....
1. Effects= causes. All possible causes are effects, all effects are potential causes. The only difference between the two is where you experience them in relation to each other in a timeline.
2. Multiple causes can create the same effect. This is uncontroversial. You'll concede that multiple different causes can all lead to the same effect. You have no problem at all stating that when you add causes x+y+z you get effect q.
3. Here's the part you're struggling with....a cause can have multiple different effects. Not merely one cause to one effect...but one cause can result in multiple plausible and different effects.
Here's the final part of the equation that you're struggling with....
4. Whenever there is no meaningful or obvious difference in potential effects exist in relation to a behavioural cause, free will can be created by a need of a choice between effects.
That's it. Nothing illogical or implausible about it. No need to invent causes that don't exist....no need to pretend that causes unknown are forever hidden from the causal chain. Simple.
And finally....
5. If any free will choices exist, then determinism is necessarily false.
What would I possibly have to change? Free will describes the reason why we get the different result. I don't have to change anything.
Again, if conditions are the exact same, or you could roll back time for the person in your two door experiment, or reset their memory, making them the exact same person each time, and all other conditions are the exact same, the decision of what door they will choose will have already been decided, and if you were able to back it up and repeat it again the exact same, they will choose the same exact door again 100% of the time the exact same. It is only by changing something that you can possibly alter or change their choice, which change then was the only thing that caused them to choose something different, proving that without that change, nothing else ever changes, or can change, if you run the conditions again the exact same, etc.To put it in baby picture form... you think this is totally logical....
View attachment 356124
With, of course, causes in blue...and effects in red. That's absolutely possible but this....
View attachment 356126
This is full on impossible....can never happen....for reasons you can't really explain.
It's not because out of the choice of two doors, obviously we can only open one door at a time and go through one door at a time....therefore giving the illusion of a "one-effect" deterministic outcome.
It's not because you experience time in a linear fashion which doesn't even make much sense outside of a local cosmic scale.....
It's because magical causes must be happening that you aren't aware of/cannot control for....otherwise you'd have to accept free will exists.
In your first picture, multiple different causes are what we have right now that exists, tons of them, etc, all produced by prior causes and effects, etc, and if we knew how all of them worked together then we'd see that they all work together to produce only one potentially predictable effect only at a time, etc, which then go on to affect other things after that once they are "past tense" and become part of the next set of factors being more causes for other things to produce or generate more effects, and it's all deterministic, etc. It can only produce one effect at a time, but it can produce multiple different effects in a very, very short period of time, etc. Those effects then become a new set of factors/causes in future events for anything else involved after that, etc. And it's all very, very much deterministic, etc.To put it in baby picture form... you think this is totally logical....
View attachment 356124
With, of course, causes in blue...and effects in red. That's absolutely possible but this....
View attachment 356126
This is full on impossible....can never happen....for reasons you can't really explain.
It's not because out of the choice of two doors, obviously we can only open one door at a time and go through one door at a time....therefore giving the illusion of a "one-effect" deterministic outcome.
It's not because you experience time in a linear fashion which doesn't even make much sense outside of a local cosmic scale.....
It's because magical causes must be happening that you aren't aware of/cannot control for....otherwise you'd have to accept free will exists.
I agree, with the caveat that the exact circumstances can only happen once, so it's kind of tautological...What are your thoughts on my post #2,208 on this page?
You agree/disagree?
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