Free will and determinism

[Bradskii]

God is aĺl knowing omnipresent, he sees the beginning and the end, only in your miniscule of existence does free will exist, we are humans in existence under the power of the Alpha & Omega God Jesus Christ

This is not a theological discussion. I won't be responding to any theological positions or religious statements.

 

[Truth7t7]

This is not a theological discussion. I won't be responding to any theological positions or religious statements.

I'm really disappointed, I thought this was "Christian Forums"?

 

[Neogaia777]

What's illogical about it is that there is absolutely nowhere in the known universe that we have yet to be able to observe that you can run the exact same conditions and get a different result. And that's also the logical argument, and the proof. Now prove me wrong about that, and I may have to revaluate my present position, but until then, there is absolutely no situation or circumstance that we know of where you can run the exact same conditions, and get a different result.

In order to get a different result you have to change something, and that is pretty much universal anywhere that we know of, and can observe, in this known observable universe, etc. And that is 100% of the time, and is a well known "fact", etc.

Take Care/God Bless.

Now just in case this still isn't clear, I'm going to try and make it even more clear.

If it's possible to repeat any or all conditions 100% exactly and get more than one result, or something different or other than the exact same result, then I'm wrong, and the possibility of free will exists, etc. But if that's not ever possible, but in order to get a different result you'd have to change something, etc, then that change was the only thing that can ever cause the result to be different or ever change ever, etc, and this instead proves determinism basically, etc, because you had to change a thing in order to "cause" a different result, etc, and it was just only that change only that caused a different result, etc, and without that change/cause, there cannot ever be a different result, etc.

I hope you all are following here, etc. Because I really don't know how to make it any more clear, etc.

Take Care/God Bless.

 

[BT3241]

The assumption here is because God knows everything is just a big puppet show were just playing it out with no hope at all.The Gospel that is preached is a gospel of hope why are we preaching it if it doesn't matter.There is no hope because all this has already been decided.Does God live in linear time just like us I doubt it isn't heaven a eternal place .Time is like a acid it eats everything up and washes it away this is a temporary existence it is death itself knocking on your door. Is this same death in heaven?

The future is not set humanity itself can change its course but as we know no one will listen or practice what Jesus has told us to do this here is all about money now the God of the earth.Why do you think God sends his prophets to try to get us to change and did we?When they listened things changed when they didn't we know what happened.Jesus changed the course of Humanity.Its not set in stone or its a puppet show.

 

[Neogaia777]

The assumption here is because God knows everything is just a big puppet show were just playing it out with no hope at all.The Gospel that is preached is a gospel of hope why are we preaching it if it doesn't matter.There is no hope because all this has already been decided.Does God live in linear time just like us I doubt it isn't heaven a eternal place .Time is like a acid it eats everything up and washes it away this is a temporary existence it is death itself knocking on your door. Is this same death in heaven?

Yes, this is a place called "Christian Forums", but the reason for all of the numerous different sub-forums here, and the individual forum threads here, is to try to narrow things down to specific topics, etc. And there are also some sub-forums that are exclusively Christian, and some that are not, and there is also a specific SoP (Statement of Purpose) posted as a kind of guidelines for each sub-forum that I suggest you look at before posting in any sub-forum, etc.

This sub-forum is for Christians and non-Christians alike, and it is also a place where you are expected to try and respect the individual sensitivities of both, etc. If you want exclusively Christian, then there are other sub-forums for that, etc, so I suggest you look around, etc.

This particular sub-forum has both Christians and non-Christians in it, and this particular thread is about determinism and/or free will, and so we would ask you to try to stay on topic as much as you possibly can, etc.

God Bless

 

[Neogaia777]

The assumption here is because God knows everything is just a big puppet show were just playing it out with no hope at all.The Gospel that is preached is a gospel of hope why are we preaching it if it doesn't matter.There is no hope because all this has already been decided.Does God live in linear time just like us I doubt it isn't heaven a eternal place .Time is like a acid it eats everything up and washes it away this is a temporary existence it is death itself knocking on your door. Is this same death in heaven?

The future is not set humanity itself can change its course but as we know no one will listen or practice what Jesus has told us to do this here is all about money now the God of the earth.Why do you think God sends his prophets to try to get us to change and did we?When they listened things changed when they didn't we know what happened.Jesus changed the course of Humanity.Its not set in stone or its a puppet show.

I suggest you post in some of the "for Christians only" sub-forums, as you will probably find plenty of people to agree with you there, etc.

Right now, there is no points of logic to be found in any of your posts, but you are only speaking from a place of emotion rooted in your own rebelliousness or rebellious nature and a not wanting to give up on or revaluate what you have been taught or told for very many years, etc.

God Bless.

 

[BT3241]

Ok I'm out if its anything goes here it the stuff I'm trying to avoid thanks for the warning.Disregard what I have said I didn't realize its a completely open thread that can go anywhere I will avoid them.I will be more careful with anymore comments I make I will put all the filters on and say little just read.I am certainly no theologian.I hear you.

 

[Bradskii]

I'm really disappointed, I thought this was "Christian Forums"?

It doesn't mean that I have to respond to theological arguments in what is not a religious discussion.

 

[partinobodycular]

You're dangerously close to presenting a teleological perspective on the universe.

Sorry, my bad. My use of the word 'designed' did indeed imply intent. Believe me, that wasn't my intention.

... in the grand scheme of things you are as important to the universe as the rock.

True, but that doesn't answer the question as to why this particular universe. I mean if determinism is correct, and we could reset reality back to the literal 'first cause', it would turn out exactly the same... with me in it. Why?

Now you could argue that the universe was simply destined (Not designed) to have conscious beings in it, and every conscious being is going to refer to itself as 'me'. Therefore the universe is always going to have 'me' in it. But that doesn't alter the fact that this precise version of me, with exactly the same set of antecedent events is ALWAYS going to happen, no matter how many times we reset it.

Now if that doesn't make me special, then I can't imagine what would. It's like playing a video game and constantly hitting the reset button, only to have it turn out exactly the same every single time.

At least give me Penrose's CCC so it'll at least change every time through.

 

[partinobodycular]

Ok I'm out if its anything goes here it the stuff I'm trying to avoid thanks for the warning.Disregard what I have said I didn't realize its a completely open thread that can go anywhere I will avoid them.

No, the forums are here for you to learn from. You can't do that by avoiding them. Just take this as a lesson learned, and do a better job next time. Trust me, we all say things that people take offense to, in fact some of us seem to go out of way to offend people. But generally we try not to.

 

[Ana the Ist]

What's illogical about it is that there is absolutely nowhere in the known universe that we have yet to be able to observe that you can run the exact same conditions and get a different result.

Of course you can...flip a coin.

And that's also the logical argument, and the proof.

Let's slow things down a little....

You'll concede that....

1. Effects= causes. All possible causes are effects, all effects are potential causes. The only difference between the two is where you experience them in relation to each other in a timeline.

2. Multiple causes can create the same effect. This is uncontroversial. You'll concede that multiple different causes can all lead to the same effect. You have no problem at all stating that when you add causes x+y+z you get effect q.

3. Here's the part you're struggling with....a cause can have multiple different effects. Not merely one cause to one effect...but one cause can result in multiple plausible and different effects.

Here's the final part of the equation that you're struggling with....

4. Whenever there is no meaningful or obvious difference in potential effects exist in relation to a behavioural cause, free will can be created by a need of a choice between effects.

That's it. Nothing illogical or implausible about it. No need to invent causes that don't exist....no need to pretend that causes unknown are forever hidden from the causal chain. Simple.

And finally....

5. If any free will choices exist, then determinism is necessarily false.

In order to get a different result you have to change something

What would I possibly have to change? Free will describes the reason why we get the different result. I don't have to change anything.

 

[Ana the Ist]

What's illogical about it is that there is absolutely nowhere in the known universe that we have yet to be able to observe that you can run the exact same conditions and get a different result. And that's also the logical argument, and the proof. Now prove me wrong about that, and I may have to revaluate my present position, but until then, there is absolutely no situation or circumstance that we know of where you can run the exact same conditions, and get a different result.

In order to get a different result you have to change something, and that is pretty much universal anywhere that we know of, and can observe, in this known observable universe, etc. And that is 100% of the time, and is a well known "fact", etc.

Take Care/God Bless.

To put it in baby picture form... you think this is totally logical....

With, of course, causes in blue...and effects in red. That's absolutely possible but this....

This is full on impossible....can never happen....for reasons you can't really explain.

It's not because out of the choice of two doors, obviously we can only open one door at a time and go through one door at a time....therefore giving the illusion of a "one-effect" deterministic outcome.

It's not because you experience time in a linear fashion which doesn't even make much sense outside of a local cosmic scale.....

It's because magical causes must be happening that you aren't aware of/cannot control for....otherwise you'd have to accept free will exists.

 

[Bradskii]

I mean if determinism is correct, and we could reset reality back to the literal 'first cause', it would turn out exactly the same... with me in it. Why?

I think the question is not why would it turn out the same. The answer to that is that cause and effect would determine it to be so. The more interesting question, and one that's never been answered, is why wouldn't it.

At least give me Penrose's CCC so it'll at least change every time through.

I'm a fan. It solves a couple of problems.

 

[Neogaia777]

Of course you can...flip a coin.





Let's slow things down a little....

You'll concede that....

1. Effects= causes. All possible causes are effects, all effects are potential causes. The only difference between the two is where you experience them in relation to each other in a timeline.

2. Multiple causes can create the same effect. This is uncontroversial. You'll concede that multiple different causes can all lead to the same effect. You have no problem at all stating that when you add causes x+y+z you get effect q.

3. Here's the part you're struggling with....a cause can have multiple different effects. Not merely one cause to one effect...but one cause can result in multiple plausible and different effects.

Here's the final part of the equation that you're struggling with....

4. Whenever there is no meaningful or obvious difference in potential effects exist in relation to a behavioural cause, free will can be created by a need of a choice between effects.

That's it. Nothing illogical or implausible about it. No need to invent causes that don't exist....no need to pretend that causes unknown are forever hidden from the causal chain. Simple.

And finally....

5. If any free will choices exist, then determinism is necessarily false.



What would I possibly have to change? Free will describes the reason why we get the different result. I don't have to change anything.

You're obviously missing the part where I said "exact same conditions" always produce "only one in the same exact same predictable effect", which can most usually only be be produced or approximated in some kind of lab. What you are talking about is where conditions are not always the same, and are not always exact, plain and simple, etc. If they are always, and again you most usually have to approximate it in a lab, you get only one in the same exact result (or effect) 100% of the time and always, no exceptions. What you are talking about is when they are not that, etc. A coin toss for example, the conditions are never the same each and every single time and always, which is why you get a different result/effect, etc.

Take Care/God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

To put it in baby picture form... you think this is totally logical....

View attachment 356124

With, of course, causes in blue...and effects in red. That's absolutely possible but this....

View attachment 356126

This is full on impossible....can never happen....for reasons you can't really explain.

It's not because out of the choice of two doors, obviously we can only open one door at a time and go through one door at a time....therefore giving the illusion of a "one-effect" deterministic outcome.

It's not because you experience time in a linear fashion which doesn't even make much sense outside of a local cosmic scale.....

It's because magical causes must be happening that you aren't aware of/cannot control for....otherwise you'd have to accept free will exists.

Again, if conditions are the exact same, or you could roll back time for the person in your two door experiment, or reset their memory, making them the exact same person each time, and all other conditions are the exact same, the decision of what door they will choose will have already been decided, and if you were able to back it up and repeat it again the exact same, they will choose the same exact door again 100% of the time the exact same. It is only by changing something that you can possibly alter or change their choice, which change then was the only thing that caused them to choose something different, proving that without that change, nothing else ever changes, or can change, if you run the conditions again the exact same, etc.

Why are you not understanding this?

What you are disagreeing with is a pretty much known to just about all (I thought anyway) law of the universe basically, etc.

Take Care/God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

@Ana the Ist

Were you drunk or something when you were drawing up or thinking up those pictures?

Anyway, in the real world we do have a ton of different causes going on or happening all of the time, but if we really were capable of fully understanding them all, and how they are all working together always, then we'd be able to predict/know just one predictable result/effect for that, etc. But because we can't do that right now, we take things to a lab to try and narrow them down and simplify them much, much more, etc. And in this case, we try to produce/reproduce just one cause that is always the exact same and see if it can produce different effects, etc. And so far, in any lab experiment that I know of that has attempted to reproduce this thus far, etc, it never, ever happens, etc, showing that determinism is the most likely explanation for things, etc, since you can't have all the exact same conditions, and have it ever produce different results ever, etc. Whereas if free will were true, then it should be able to, but it doesn't, etc, but always goes/happens according to how it was caused to happen or go all of the time only, etc.

 

[Neogaia777]

@Ana the Ist

And in your pictures, one singular cause cannot ever produce a variety of different effects, if it can ever be narrowed down to just one singular cause, which is why we take things to a lab to try to produce/reproduce that, etc.

And in every single lab experiment like this, it is always the same, one singular cause cannot produce a variety of different effects, and it always produces/reproduces/causes always the exact same result/effect if the conditions are always the exact same, etc.

 

[Neogaia777]

To put it in baby picture form... you think this is totally logical....

View attachment 356124

With, of course, causes in blue...and effects in red. That's absolutely possible but this....

View attachment 356126

This is full on impossible....can never happen....for reasons you can't really explain.

It's not because out of the choice of two doors, obviously we can only open one door at a time and go through one door at a time....therefore giving the illusion of a "one-effect" deterministic outcome.

It's not because you experience time in a linear fashion which doesn't even make much sense outside of a local cosmic scale.....

It's because magical causes must be happening that you aren't aware of/cannot control for....otherwise you'd have to accept free will exists.

In your first picture, multiple different causes are what we have right now that exists, tons of them, etc, all produced by prior causes and effects, etc, and if we knew how all of them worked together then we'd see that they all work together to produce only one potentially predictable effect only at a time, etc, which then go on to affect other things after that once they are "past tense" and become part of the next set of factors being more causes for other things to produce or generate more effects, and it's all deterministic, etc. It can only produce one effect at a time, but it can produce multiple different effects in a very, very short period of time, etc. Those effects then become a new set of factors/causes in future events for anything else involved after that, etc. And it's all very, very much deterministic, etc.

As for your second picture, and as I've already stated, you cannot ever have a sole, singular cause that produces multiple different effects, etc, it just doesn't happen, etc. But the only way we can even begin to try and show this or prove this is only in a lab, and only under limited, controlled conditions, etc. But it can be shown/proven, etc.

 

[Neogaia777]

@Ana the Ist

And I'm sorry if I seem to be repeating myself in so many different words or ways I can think of putting it, but that seems to be what we are down to at this point.

I would really like you to get this, etc.

Take Care/God Bless.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

What are your thoughts on my post #2,208 on this page?

You agree/disagree?

I agree, with the caveat that the exact circumstances can only happen once, so it's kind of tautological...