Free masons

[urnotme]

Now if a Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist all say a prayer to the Creator of the Universe why do you suppose the Creator of that Universe wouldn't listen? They might all Imagine that Creator as being differant in many ways however thier adoration and devotion to that Creator is the same.

Instead of fighting against each other for what each supposes to be the truth they instead choose to work together to heal the sick, feed the hungry, and cloth the naked. Somehow I suspect that God will know them all as His Children.

Somehow Masons sound more christ like than em=2 does. Of course you might be a neo nazi cult for all I know.

 

[cwebber]

Don't believe this folks, while those expressions are allowed in Freemasonry to have a 'Christian' interpretation, Wayne knows perfectly well that Freemasonry allows its members to 'substitute' any of these expressions to be 'representative' of a similar expression in their own religion.

Mike I don't believe Rev in His quote was trying to misguide or misdirect anyone He was making a comparision as to which Religion Freemasonry has most in common with that being Christianity maybe not yours but Christianity in General.

The Bible albeit called "The Great Light in Masonry" and is often quoted in Masonic ritual out of context, is merely 'representative' of any book any Mason deems 'holy' i.e. the Koran, Vedas, Book of Confucius, Gitas, Upanishads, Book of Mormon, etc.

The Bible is given a different title Mike. It is given the title "THAT GREATEST LIGHT OF FREEMASONRY".

Finally, Rev. Wayne's own Masonic ritual states that the symbolism that they are told representing patron saints, John the disciple and John the Baptist, do not actually allude to these two saints at all, but rather to Sun worship (p.99-102).

Hmmm. Mine never mentions it. Second are you going to start condeming the following as well because the are represented in other religions as well:

White Dove
Cross
Christmas Tree
Everygreen
Pearl of Great Price
Easter Eggs (Resurrection Eggs)
Candles hung at Christmas

I would say look at the purpose it is used for an example would be the 5 Pointed Star which is a representation of Jesus Christ as King, But most see it as Satanic.

So Christian readers, if Freemasonry is a religion (and any dictionary or encyclopedia definition will show that it is) how can it be Christianity if it allows Jesus Christ, the one and only true Messiah, to be relegated to the same level as all false messiahs? Because if anyone believes that the Sun is "a" Supreme Being, they would be eligible for Masonic membership based upon the requirement of belief in a Supreme Being.

Mike
First my Brother you do not speak for all Christians, Christian Readers need to read for them selves and not what you feed them which is based on misconceptions. We have shown you already the Foundation on which you base you reasoning that Freemaosnry is Evil is full of Holes, intentinal Lies and misinformation, out of context quotes and Clandestain Freemasons. The beginning of you views on Freemaosnry being evil started with John Ankerburg as your testimoney declares we now you have been shown that John Ankerburg used Clandestain Groups of Freemasons and not regular Freemaosnry so His information is not based on Regular Freemaosnry and by which your foundation is of SAND! Because your foundation is not based on Scripture but on a Man John Ankerburg.

How can it be Christianity if it allows the Bible, which is the one and only revealed Word of God, to be relegated to the same level as all false 'holy' books that God never inspired? How can it be Christianity if it allows Allah worship, Vishnu worship, Horus worship, Balder worship, etc. and even Sun worship?

Do you physcally stop people from reading a Koran in your presents or praying to Allah because this is what you are suggesting that we do to physical intervine and force someone to see it our way. Jesus never forced anyone and neither will me We can only offer our Witness we can not force it on others.

No worship is allowed in Masonic Lodges during open meetings. But I have never seen anyone interupt a Preacher if He was called to preach than I have seen it happen on Serval I repeat Sevral Occations. I have seen Masons stand up at the Good of the Order and proclaim the Love and testimoney for Jesus Christian. No one stopped them and no one spoke badly of them. I have only seen this done on a Christian Website called Ephesians 5-11 were I was told that my Salvation was worthless because I am a Mason.

Likewise, if anyone would simply read 1st and 2nd Kings of the Bible, which I have been doing during my daily devotionals recently, they will see that tolerating the worship of false deities is "evil in the sight of the Lord." Therefore, it stands to reason that if Freemasonry is a religion (which it is) it certainly isn't Christianity!

Mike you do relize there is a NEw Covenant between man and God thru Jesus Christ. And by what you just stated Jesus is in Violation of your Rule as He tolerated those who worshiped different gods but should them the Truth about Salvation He did not force them as you suggest to follow Him. He offered His hand but left the choice of to them that is the beauty of Grace it is a Free Gift to all not forced on anyone but only presented to everyone.

As far as your current View I would suggest you start reading in the New Testiment again as you have seem to missed something. Read about Paul and the Altar to the Unknown God I think that is the one you need to read. Paul never forced them to stop worshiping false gods but told them about Christ. He never broke down their altars to others gods but showne them the True God , Jesus Christ.

I would say alot of lessons of Freemasonry draws from Pauls teachings. Most of the issues you brought up before from Lamb Skin, Lion of Judah, Great White Throme judgement are all found in the NEw Testiment. The Only thing that is draw from the Old Testiment is the Eye of God, GAOTU and the setting of the Ritual the Lesson of Freemasonry draw from the New Testiment. Charity

 

[~Nihilus~]

I think that is one of his characteristtics. Reading these threads I makes me think that the most critical people usually know the least about what they're criticizing.

thats why they criticize; ignorance

 

[Rev Wayne]

Answer: It is its own RELIGION, one with all other religions wrapped up as one!

Then could you please share that information with e=mv^2? He keeps rambling on about these Buddhists and Hindus who are Masons, who also seem to have forgotten to relinquish their religious choice.

Don't believe this folks, while those expressions are allowed in Freemasonry to have a 'Christian' interpretation, Wayne knows perfectly well that Freemasonry allows its members to 'substitute' any of these expressions to be 'representative' of a similar expression in their own religion.

You missed the point, Michael. The things I mentioned are exclusively Christian. They come from Revelation 5:5, John 11:25, Matthew 18:20, the Apostles’ Creed, and from various places throughout the Old and New Testaments.



But I have just documented exactly what I have said, and since you raise the issue, I will leave it up to you to document your claim by showing exactly what parallels are found in exactly which religions.



Not that you can, but the challenge is there.

"Lion of the tribe of Judah" is not only representative of Jesus Christ it can also be any "Messiah" figure drawn from any religion. The Hindu Masons called theirs Krishna; the Chinese Masons, Kioun-tse; the Persians Masons, Sosiosch; the Chaldean Masons, Dhouvanai; the Egyptian Masons, Horus; Plato, Love; the Scandinavian Masons, Balder; again the Christians call theirs Jesus; Jewish Masons call theirs "the coming Messiah" and Masons in general call him Hiram so that he (Hiram) can be 'representative' of any Mason's 'savior' deemed his 'Messiah.'

You need to either read more thoroughly or respond more honestly. Certainly you don’t expect me to believe you missed the part you just omitted, “Lion of the tribe of Judah, who has prevailed to loose the seven seals?” There is only one such Lion of the tribe of Judah, He is the Lion of Revelation 5:5, and He is the one and only Jesus Christ. Why you try to claim a “substitute” or a “representative” to put in place of the real Christ is totally beyond me. But in that regard you are on your own. I serve one Christ only, and at least I know how to recognize when He is spoken of in the Word.

Finally, Rev. Wayne's own Masonic ritual states that the symbolism that they are told representing patron saints, John the disciple and John the Baptist, do not actually allude to these two saints at all, but rather to Sun worship (p.99-102).

Now, this time I will not put an “if” before the idea you are being dishonest, because this time you clearly appear to be ignoring the lessons of the “Origins and Rituals” thread that recently closed. It was clearly proven there that Albert Mackey, who penned the comments you cite, later retracted all his former claims of origins of Masonry that go back any further than the Middle Age Trade Guilds. In the context of the “sun worship” theory—later rejected by Mackey—it clearly places the origins in ancient Egypt, thus it clearly is one of the opinions Mackey retracted.



When I told you this before, I did so on the basis of reliable information from the British Columbia/Yukon website. You insisted that was not proof enough, and then I found a statement by Henry Wilson Coil, a Masonic author you often chose to quote in your attacks, and you insisted he wasn’t good enough either, you wanted it from Mackey’s own words, and that if I found it in his words, then you would offer an apology for comments you had made against what I had to say on the matter. Eventually I did find it in Mackey’s own words in his Masonic Encyclopedia, and posted it, and you offered the promised apology.



So why do you go back now and try to claim validity for already-refuted opinions? Shall I post Mackey's own statement on the matter again?

I cannot find any incontrovertible evidence that would trace Masonry, aas now organized, beyone the Building Corporations of the Middle Ages. (Encyclopedia of Freemasonry, McClure (1917), p. 85.)

I certainly shouldn’t have to inform you that this is not very good "debating" procedure?


The Bible albeit called "The Great Light in Masonry" and is often quoted in Masonic ritual out of context, is merely 'representative' of any book any Mason deems 'holy' i.e. the Koran, Vedas, Book of Confucius, Gitas, Upanishads, Book of Mormon, etc.



Well, in the previous question and response, you seem to make it a point to cite what is in “Wayne’s own Masonic ritual,” so I will turn to the Ahiman Rezon to respond. In the current Ahiman Rezon, there are four separate instances where the “Three Great Lights” of Masonry are mentioned, and all four of them are consistent in referring to the first of those three as “the Holy Bible.”



If there is any reference whatsoever to the “VSL,” or “Volume of Sacred Law,” or to any “representative,” I certainly have not found it there.

So Christian readers, if Freemasonry is a religion (and any dictionary or encyclopedia definition will show that it is) how can it be Christianity if it allows Jesus Christ, the one and only true Messiah, to be relegated to the same level as all false messiahs?

Simple: it doesn’t. My whole question was hypothetical ("if"). You have mistaken dialogue about parallel themes for what it is not, and have provided your own “substitute” idea, and portrayed it to be a Masonic absolute.



That’s called a red herring.



Another prediction: you will now force everyone to endure your endless quoting of one Grand Lodge’s opinion on the matter (Kentucky), trying to portray it as though it were “representative” of all of Masonry.



Or at least, that’s been standard procedure for you in the past. As has been my response, that Ky. ritual is authoritative only in the state of Kentucky, and you will not find the matter stated as—what was his name, Pirtle?—puts it in the Kentucky Monitor, as an overall understanding anywhere in Masonry.

How can it be Christianity if it allows the Bible, which is the one and only revealed Word of God, to be relegated to the same level as all false 'holy' books that God never inspired?

There might be a Lodge here and there where another book is used, but that is no reflection on the Bible or on Masonry’s estimation of it. It simply reflects the fact that in the places where another book is used, the majority of people in that country (and hence in that Lodge) are of some other faith, and naturally they use some other book. But you are putting the cart before the horse. The Lodge and its practice of having the Bible on the altar, developed in Christian countries and the other practices thus are also "substitutes" for what original Freemason stated. Since you object, what would you suggest they do instead, should we insist that non-Christians use the Bible also?

Assuming Freemasonry to be a religion when it is not sure runs you down some blind alleys.

How can it be Christianity if it allows Allah worship, Vishnu worship, Horus worship, Balder worship, etc. and even Sun worship?

I’m afraid you lost me here. What relevance does worship have to the Masonic Lodge, a place where no “worship” occurs?

Because if anyone believes that the Sun is "a" Supreme Being, they would be eligible for Masonic membership based upon the requirement of belief in a Supreme Being.

Wrong. The answer to the question asked of all Masons upon first entering the Lodge, “In whom do you put your trust?” there is only one of two answers that will be received as correct: "Jesus Christ," or "God".



And “the sun," as you can plainly see, ain’t one of 'em.

Likewise, if anyone would simply read 1st and 2nd Kings of the Bible, which I have been doing during my daily devotionals recently, they will see that tolerating the worship of false deities is "evil in the sight of the Lord." Therefore, it stands to reason that if Freemasonry is a religion (which it is) it certainly isn't Christianity!

The only “tolerating” of any other kind of worship would have to be done outside of the Lodge, so technically you are making irrelevant claims. I can no more be said to be “tolerating worship of false deities” by attending Lodge, than you could be accused of the same thing by attending Church—because any such thing occurs outside of both the Lodge and the Church.



Funny you should mention that phrase, “stands to reason.” Isn’t there a website you were “quoting” (I use that term loosely) from awhile back by that name, “Stand to Reason?” Tell me, Michael, the manner in which you cited the Gregory Koukl article in that particular instance:



Would you say that was Christian(ity)?


Seems to me you need to either build your own house out of some other material, or cease and desist from all the rock-throwing.

 

[O.F.F.]

Why you try to claim a “substitute” or a “representative” to put in place of the real Christ is totally beyond me.

I'm not making the claim of a “substitute” or a “representative” to put in place of the real Christ, Freemasonry does and you know perfectly well that they do! Who's being dishonest here Rev? You mean to tell me that you are oblivious to the following?

The lion, from the earliest times of recorded history, has been a symbol of might and royalty. It was placed on the standard of the Tribe of Judah because it was the royal tribe of the Hebrew Nation. The Kings of Judah were, therefore, called the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. This was one of the titles of King Solomon. This is the literal meaning of the term, but it also has a symbolic one. The Jewish idea of the Messiah was that of a mighty temporal king. He was designated the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, for it was from this tribe that all rulers came. The expression does not, of necessity, refer to Jesus of Nazareth, though the Christian Mason may so interpret the name if he desires. The Lion of the Tribe of Judah also describes the Messiah of the Jewish Mason or the mediator of some of the ancient religions of the East whose worshippers are Masons. Freedom of choice as to the application of these symbols is one of the reasons for the growth of Freemasonry over the centuries.

Mentor's Manual Grand Lodge of Florida, page 24.

The lion from most ancient times has been a symbol of might or royalty. It was blazoned upon the standard of the tribe of Judah, because it was the royal tribe. The kings of Judah were, therefore, each called Lion of the Tribe of Judah, and such was one of the titles of Solomon. Remembrance of this fact gives appropriateness to an expression employed at one point in our ceremonies which is otherwise obscure, not to say absurd. Such is the literal meaning of this phrase, but it also has a symbolical one. The Jewish idea of a Messiah was of a mighty temporal king. He was also designated as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah; in fact this title was regarded as peculiarly belonging to him. This expression does not, as many Masons suppose, necessarily have a reference to Jesus of Nazareth. The Christian Mason is privileged so to interpret it, if he likes, but the Jew has equal right to understand it as meaning his Messiah. Indeed, every great religion of the world has contained the conception in some form of a Mediator between God and man, a Redeemer who would raise mankind from the death of this life and the grave to an everlasting existence with God hereafter. The Mason who is a devotee of one of these religions, say, Buddhism, Brahmanism or Mohammedanism, is likewise entitled to construe this expression as referring to his own Mediator.

Symbolism of the Three Degrees by Oliver Day Street, pp. 154-155

As for your ritual stating that the symbolism of Saint John the Disciple and Saint John the Baptist pointing to Sun Worship you said:

It was clearly proven there that Albert Mackey, who penned the comments you cite, later retracted all his former claims of origins of Masonry that go back any further than the Middle Age Trade Guilds. In the context of the “sun worship” theory—later rejected by Mackey—it clearly places the origins in ancient Egypt, thus it clearly is one of the opinions Mackey retracted.

Then why hasn't your Grand Lodge removed the reference of Sun Worship from your ritual? Obviously your Grand Lodge doesn't want to 'retract' it, or they would have removed it by now. Instead, they've been disseminating this information long before you became a Mason, and unless you can prove otherwise we can assume they still issue the same ritual today.

What relevance does worship have to the Masonic Lodge, a place where no “worship” occurs?

Most people would agree that bowing down in reverence to God is a form of worship. And while it is a form of idolatry as practiced by Freemasonry, IN THE LODGE during the 2nd degree (Fellow Craft) Masons bow to a symbol, the letter "G" which is 'representative' of the god of Masons, the all encompassing generic god "G.A.O.T.U." however conceived by the individual Mason, be he Muslim, Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. Notice how it is so prominently displayed in Rev. Wayne's avatar.

The letter G to which your attention was directed on your passage hither, has a still greater and more significant meaning. It is the initial and sacred name of God, before whom all Masons, from the youngest Entered Apprentice who stands in the Northeast corner of the Lodge, to the Worshipful master who resides in the East, should most humbly, reverently, and devoutly bow.

- Pages 18 & 19, Fellow Craft Degree, State of Nevada Ritual, Circa 1986

Additionally, I doubt that a Christian pastor would deny that prayer is a form of worship, now would you Rev? Especially since Jesus Himself gave us a pattern for prayer in Luke 11:2, which begins with words of worship and adoration to "Our Father who art in heaven" much like the following prayer conducted IN THE MASONIC LODGE:

Vouchsafe Thine aid, Almighty Father of the Universe, to this our present convention, and grant that this candidate for Masonry may dedicate and devote his life to Thy service, and become a true and faithful brother among us. Endue him with a competency of Thy Divine Wisdom, that, by the influence of the pure principles of' our Fraternity, he may be better enabled to display the beauties of holiness, to the honor of Thy Holy Name. Amen.

Grand Lodge of New York, New York Masonic Monitor, Page 5

This is a prayer that is said in the lodge, and is not only a prayer of worship, it is a prayer of sanctification of a candidate for Freemasonry. Sanctification for "holiness" not by the Holy Spirit, which is the only source true holiness comes from, but by the principles of the fraternity. What blasphemy! How dare your fraternity claim to do with its principles that which can only be accomplished by the Spirit of God. And how dare you, a supposed Christian pastor support, participate in, and defend such blasphemy.

 

[billmcelligott]

Somehow Masons sound more christ like than em=2 does. Of course you might be a neo nazi cult for all I know.

Naaaaaaaaaaaaagh , were nice guys. Bit like robin Hood and his merry men, we twist the arms of the RICH and give to the POOR.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Trouble is, Mike, you keep quoting from all the wrong places. Try this funeral ceremony from the Texas manual:

From “A Memorial Service Program,” Texas:

We have assembled in this sacred hour for the purpose of rendering the last loving tribute of reverence and esteem and to pledge anew our fidelity to the blessed memory of those, our beloved Brethren who since last we met on a similar occasion, have answered the last roll call, the final summons, marching out of the night to the glories of an undying day.
"What doth the Lord require of thee, 0 man, but 'to do justly and love mercy and walk humbly with thy God.'" "And one of the elders sayeth unto me: 'Rejoice ye and be exceedingly glad-behold the Lion of the tribe of Judah hath prevailed to open the book and to loosen the seven seals thereof," reminding us of two of the great symbolisms of Masonry - the white lamb-skin apron and the sprig of acacia.
The white apron, representative of the lamb that taketh away the sin of the world; emblematical of the sweet peace of God's divine love, which passeth all human understanding and in the portrayal of the Resurrection of the body, the immortality of the soul and the life everlasting, and symbolical of the Fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man, and that the good Mason is constantly reminded by the ever living sprig of Faith in the merits of the Lion of the tribe of Judah which strengthens him with confidence and composure to look forward to a blessed immortality and doubts not but that in the glorious morn of the Resurrection, his body will rise and become as incorruptible as his soul; and thus death is not a cessation of life, but only an incident in it.

Not only does it have the Lion of the tribe of Judah from Revelation 5:5, it has some other staunchly Christian phrasing there, too:

• "the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world"
• "peace that passeth all understanding," from Philippians 4:7---"and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus."
• "his body will rise and become as incorruptible as his soul"--a bodily resurrection, a thoroughly Christian doctrine.

And that is not all, of course. You quote from Florida ritual as though it were authoritative and definitive for all of Masonry, but you know, of course, that the authority of their monitor begins and ends with the state of Florida. But if you want a voice of someone whose opinions range over several Grand Lodge jurisdictions, then try Henry Wilson Coil's Encyclopedia of Freemasonry:

Revelation 5:5 reads: “Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the Book, and to loose the Seven Seals thereof.” I Samuel 17:37 uses the expression: “paw of the lion.” The Lion of the tribe of Judah is supposed to mean Christ and the allusion is said to refer to the doctrine of resurrection.

And for another voice that carries beyond one mere Grand Lodge:

The connection of Solomon, as the chief of the tribe of Judah, with the lion, which was the achievement of the tribe, has caused this expression to be referred, in the third degree, to him who brought light and immortality to light. The old Christian interpretation of the Masonic symbols here prevails; and in Ancient Craft Masonry all allusions to the lion, as the lion’s paw, the lion’s grip, etc., refer to the doctrine of the resurrection taught by him who is known as “the lion of the tribe of Judah.” The expression is borrowed from the Apocalypse, (v. 5) “Behold, the Lion which is of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.”

Mackey, Encyclopedia of Freemasonry

But hey, why stop so short there, when all over Masonry in all sorts of writings and manuals and interpretations and encyclopedias, ad infinitum, the same thing is said over and over. Take a look for yourself:

Masonic Bible, Master Mason edition:

In the tribal benediction pronounced upon Judah, the “lion’s whelp” is used emblematically of strength; hence, the ensign on the banner of Judah was a lion. The phrase in the Masonic ritual, “The lion of the tribe of Judah,” is Messianic and refers to Christ, the anointed of God and royal head of God’s Kingdom.

Macoy’s Dictionary of Freemasonry:

The lion was a symbol of Jeremiah, because of the terrible voice of his threatening; and of St. Mark, because his gospel begins with the voice in the wilderness; but principally of Christ, who is denominated the Lion of the tribe of Judah, and will ultimately subdue all things to himself; “for he must reign till he hath put all enemies under his feet.”

K.J. Stewart, The Freemason’s Manual, 1851:

These beautiful and expressive emblems thus close with the solemn realities of death, “the deep, damp vault, the mattock and the grave.” These are sad and gloomy considerations to our race, and even the animal creation shrinks back with horror from the thought of death. But to the Christian, the coldness and darkness of the tomb are hidden by the evergreens of faith and hope, which spring forth from the Root of Jesse, who was cut down in the midst of his days, but from whose resurrection we derive glorious evidences of a blessed immortality. If, like our great pattern and exemplar, we are faithful to our trusts, violence may assail, but cannot destroy us; Death will no longer be a tyrant, but a Tyler to usher us into the presence of our Supreme Grand Master, who presides in the Lodge above.

Pike, Morals and Dogma:

The murder of Hiram, his burial, and his being raised again by the Master, are symbols, both of the death, burial, and resurrection of the Redeemer; and of the death and burial in sins of the natural man, and his being raised again to a new life, or born again, by the direct action of the Redeemer; after Morality (symbolized by the Entered Apprentice's grip), and Philosophy (symbolized by the grip of the Fellow-Craft), had failed to raise him. That of the Lion of the House of Judah is the strong grip, never to be broken, with which Christ, of the royal line of that House, has clasped to Himself the whole human race, and embraces them in His wide arms as closely and affectionately as brethren embrace each other on the five points of fellowship. (p. 640-41)

Even Arthur Waite's Encyclopedia of Freemasonry:

Behold the Lion Who is the conqueror of the Tribe of Judah, the Root of David! I will open the Book, and the seven seals thereof. I have beheld Satan as a bolt falling from heaven. It is Thou Who hast given us Power to crush dragons, scorpions and all Thine enemies beneath Thy feet.

Carl Claudy, Introduction to Freemasonry:

The lion is one of Freemasonry's most powerful and potent symbols both in the Lion of the Tribe of Judah and the paw of the lion.
Judah was symbolized as a lion in his father's deathbed blessing. The lion was upon the standard of the large and powerful tribe of Judah. "Lion of the Tribe of Judah" was one of Solomon's titles. Christian interpretation of the phrase springs from Revelation (v, 5), Behold, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book and to loose the seven seals thereof.

The idea of a resurrection is curiously interwoven with the lion. In the Twelfth Century, one Philip de Thaun stated: "Know that the lioness, if she bring forth a dead cub, she holds her cub and the lion arrives; he goes about and cries, till it revives on the third day.

Thus the strong lion of Judah
The gates of cruel death being broken
Arose on the third day
At the loud sounding voice of the father.

George Steinmetz, Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning:

On mention of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Christian

immediately traces the lineage of Jesus, and interprets such

reference as pertaining to him. No criticism is intended of these views, no particular interpretation is ever forced upon the Mason, nor is Masonry dogmatic in the sense that any specific

interpretation of its mysteries is insisted upon as being the one

and only true meaning of its allegories and symbology. No Mason

should ever be intolerant of the views of others, and he should

consider any intelligent interpretation offered by another, for it is through diversity that the harmony of unity is eventually

attained, be it in the Universe or in the Lodge.

Missouri Lodge of Research, “Key Masonic Words and Phrases”:

LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH
In the tribal benediction pronounced upon Judah, the "lion's whelp" is used emblematically of strength. Hence, the ensign on the banner of Judah was a lion. The phrase in the Masonic ritual, "The lion of the tribe of Judah," is Messianic and refers to Christ, the anointed of God and royal head of God's Kingdom.

Lightfoot's Manual of the Lodge,

Master: Brethren - Before I declare the Lodge closed, let us unite in humbly acknowledging our dependence on the Most High. May His right hand be as a shield and buckles to us against the assaults of our enemies; and, at the final day, may each and every one of us be raised, through the merits of the Lion of the tribe of Judah, to the celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Grand Master forever presides - forever reigns. Amen."

[the “merits” of Solomon or anyone else cannot do this, it is a reference to Christ]
PhoenixMasonry homepage:

The devise on the banner of the tribe of Judah was a Lion. The expression borrowed from the Apocalypse, "Behold, the Lion which is of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof." The phrase, "Lion of the tribe of Judah," therefore when used in the Masonic ritual, referred in its original interpretation to Christ, him who "brought light and immortality to light." Rev. 5:5 - Gen. 49:9

Manly Hall, Secret Teachings of All Ages:

The origin of the Trinity is obvious to anyone who will observe the daily manifestations of the sun. This orb, being the symbol of all Light, has three distinct phases: rising, midday, and setting. The philosophers therefore divided the life of all things into three distinct parts: growth, maturity, and decay. Between the twilight of dawn and the twilight of evening is the high noon of resplendent glory. God the Father, the Creator of the world, is symbolized by the dawn. His color is blue, because the sun rising in the morning is veiled in blue mist. God the Son the Illuminating One sent to bear witness of His Father before all the worlds, is the celestial globe at noonday, radiant and magnificent, the maned Lion of Judah, the Golden-haired Savior of the World. Yellow is His color and His power is without end. God the Holy Ghost is the sunset phase, when the orb of day, robed in flaming red, rests for a moment upon the horizon line and then vanishes into the darkness of the night to wandering the lower worlds and later rise again triumphant from the embrace of darkness.

“Freemasonry and Catholicism,” Max Heindel

You shall not wake till the Lion of Judah raises you with the powerful grip of His paw. This day you have received your BAPTISM OF FIRE, but He shall BAPTIZE YOU WITH WATER AND WITH SPIRIT; you, and every son of the widow, who will come to Him. Greater than Solomon, he will build a new city and a Temple wherein the nations may worship. The Sons of Cain and the Sons of Seth shall there meet in Peace, at the sea of glass. And as Melchisedec, King of Salem (Salem means Peace,) and Priest of God, ministered to Abraham, the father of nations, when mankind was yet in its infancy, so shall this new Light combine in Himself the dual office of King and Priest after the order of Melchisedec. He shall judge the nations with THE LAW OF LOVE and to him that overcometh will be given a White Stone with a name that will serve as passport to the temple. There he may meet the king FACE TO FACE.

Mackey, Symbolism of Freemasonry:

Returning, then, to the acacia, we find that it is capable of three explanations. It is a symbol of immortality, of innocence, and of initiation. But these three significations are closely connected, and that connection must be observed, if we desire to obtain a just interpretation of the symbol. Thus, in this one symbol, we are taught that in the initiation of life, of which the initiation in the third-degree is simply emblematic, innocence must for a time lie in the grave, at length, however, to be called, by the word of the Grand Master of the Universe, to a blissful immortality. Combine with this the recollection of the place where the sprig of acacia was planted, and which I have heretofore shown to be Mount Calvary, the place of sepulture of Him who "brought life and immortality to light," and who, in Christian Masonry, is designated, as he is in Scripture, as "the lion of the tribe of Judah," and remember, too, that in the mystery of his death, the wood of the cross takes the place of the acacia, and in this little and apparently insignificant symbol, but which is really and truly the most important and significant one in masonic science, we have a beautiful suggestion of all the mysteries of life and death, of time and eternity, of the present and of the future. Thus read (and thus all our symbols should be read), Masonry proves something more to its disciples than a mere social society or a charitable association. It becomes a "lamp to our feet," whose spiritual light shines on the darkness of the deathbed, and dissipates the gloomy shadows of the grave.

You have noticed, I hope, that I have included among these, most of the authors you have commonly quoted in your attempts to mischaracterize Freemasons. Strange to see authors you have characterized as pagan (or worse), agreeing with so many others in Masonry that the Lion of the tribe of Judah is none other than Jesus Christ.

I'm amazed at your short memory. You've been shown these things more than once. Are you simply paying it no attention? How can you ignore such a solid core of Freemasonic opinion on this matter and stick to a dissenter or two that you dig up? How can you, after having quoted so many of these same authors in your attacks on Masonry, now turn away and ignore their opinions as though you never considered them to have anything to say on the issue?

Then why hasn't your Grand Lodge removed the reference of Sun Worship from your ritual? Obviously your Grand Lodge doesn't want to 'retract' it, or they would have removed it by now. Instead, they've been disseminating this information long before you became a Mason, and unless you can prove otherwise we can assume they still issue the same ritual today.

You know as well as I do how reluctant Masonry is to change anything, because of the value they place on tradition. And you should recognize that in a Grand Lodge who claims Albert Mackey as one of its own, that reluctance will certainly extend to his work, probably for quite some time to come.

Besides, like I've pointed out to you before, if you read that piece in the Ahiman Rezon correctly, you will see that the interpretation of the the two parallel lines as the two saints John is set forth without comment, indicating it is the interpretation set forth by Ahiman Rezon. Check all the earlier forms of Ahiman Rezon and you will find this is correct, and was always the Masonic interpretation of those synbols. The part about sun worship is Mackey's, and is clearly a polemic offering a secondary interpretation, and Mackey is clearly railing against the original interpretation. This edition was completed in 1851, which is fairly early, and definitely in a time frame before Mackey's later rejection of such interpretations.

I find it interesting that the opinions Mackey offers after his rejection of any foundation in antiquity, are all expressive of Christian content more than anything else.

Most people would agree that bowing down in reverence to God is a form of worship. And while it is a form of idolatry as practiced by Freemasonry, IN THE LODGE during the 2nd degree (Fellow Craft) Masons bow to a symbol, the letter "G" which is 'representative' of the god of Masons, the all encompassing generic god "G.A.O.T.U." however conceived by the individual Mason, be he Muslim, Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. Notice how it is so prominently displayed in Rev. Wayne's avatar.

Nobody bows to a "symbol" in the Lodge anywhere at any time, in the Fellow Craft degree or in any other. That's an absurd notion, and one that you as a former Mason should know better. That is, unless Prince Hall practices it differently and they do bow to symbols. If so, I certainly haven't seen or heard of the practice at all.

The letter G to which your attention was directed on your passage hither, has a still greater and more significant meaning. It is the initial and sacred name of God, before whom all Masons, from the youngest Entered Apprentice who stands in the Northeast corner of the Lodge, to the Worshipful master who resides in the East, should most humbly, reverently, and devoutly bow.

- Pages 18 & 19, Fellow Craft Degree, State of Nevada Ritual, Circa 1986

If this is what you base your "bowing to a symbol" on, then I am afraid you have greatly misread the plain English of what it says. The highlighted words you have boldened after the underlined part, have a referent, as do all dependent clauses. The key to what it says is simple, it says clearly, "Before WHOM all Masons should bow," not before WHICH, as it would read if it were referring to the letter G. The referent word, therefore, is clearly GOD, since the pronoun "whom" indicates a person, and the only person even mentioned up to that point is GOD. And unless you have some problem with people bowing to God, I think you might want to reconsider.

Additionally, I doubt that a Christian pastor would deny that prayer is a form of worship, now would you Rev?

Agreed, it is a form of worship--but the difference is, worship is an intentional activity, involves many other things than prayer, and is the design and purpose of the group meeting together for worship. But prayer alone among the members of a group who have not even met together for that purpose cannot be said to constitute worship. Otherwise, you will have Boy Scouts, some civic groups, the United States Senate, some high school football games, and many other groups, all designated as bodies of worship.

Especially since Jesus Himself gave us a pattern for prayer in Luke 11:2, which begins with words of worship and adoration to "Our Father who art in heaven" much like the following prayer conducted IN THE MASONIC LODGE:

And now, after all the above criticisms, you turn around and start saying the Lord's Prayer is comparable to the prayer in the Lodge?

Sounds conflicted to me.

"Vouchsafe Thine aid, Almighty Father of the Universe, to this our present convention, and grant that this candidate for Masonry may dedicate and devote his life to Thy service, and become a true and faithful brother among us. Endue him with a competency of Thy Divine Wisdom, that, by the influence of the pure principles of' our Fraternity, he may be better enabled to display the beauties of holiness, to the honor of Thy Holy Name. Amen.

Grand Lodge of New York, New York Masonic Monitor, Page 5"
This is a prayer that is said in the lodge, and is not only a prayer of worship, it is a prayer of sanctification of a candidate for Freemasonry. Sanctification for "holiness" not by the Holy Spirit, which is the only source true holiness comes from, but by the principles of the fraternity. What blasphemy! How dare your fraternity claim to do with its principles that which can only be accomplished by the Spirit of God. And how dare you, a supposed Christian pastor support, participate in, and defend such blasphemy.

Gee, somehow you managed, in your desire to accuse, to glide right over the important parts of that prayer, like:

• dedicate and devote his life to Thy service
• Endue him with a competency of Thy Divine Wisdom
• to the honor of Thy Holy Name

What do you do when you read things like this, just pretend they aren't there?

The main point of your accusation appears in a sentence that begins, "Endue him with a competency of Thy Divine Wisdom." Pay attention to that, because it is the main part of the sentence, not the part you emphasize. The part about being "better enabled" to display the beauties of holiness is therefore dependent upon the main clause of the sentence, which has the Mason being "endued with a competency of divine wisdom." I would submit that the "competency of divine wisdom" sounds much more like "sanctification" than what you have offered. Not only that, it is not even suggested as doing anything on its own anyway--there's a difference between being "enabled" and being "better enabled." It clearly, then, is intended to supplement the divine enablement, not supplant it. In that regard, I concur with the large body of Christian Masons who witness that Masonry has been a welcome complement to their Christian faith, because of the added encouragements to put faith in action, and a dimension of accountability.

And where do the "principles" of Masonry come from?

Let's ask the Missouri Masonic Lodge of Research, "Key Masonic Words and Phrases":

Obligation
From time immemorial, men have entered into covenants of brotherhood and friendship under solemn oaths of fidelity and loyalty, and whenever the circumstances and purposes warranted it, secrecy has been pledged. This practice among Masons has many precedents and is based on the truths and principles set forth of the Great Light of Masonry. The oath in such covenants is given in the name of God, and perjury in such oaths is subject to severe penalties. All vows voluntarily taken in Masonry must be faithfully performed and are never subject to revocation.

And from the same source, what is the "Great Light of Masonry?"

Opening of the Lodge
It is absolutely necessary that the Lodge be opened in due and ancient form. Without these ceremonies, the assembly is not a Masonic Lodge. This is true because the Master must be reminded of the dignity and character of himself and of his position. And the other officers must be impressed with the respect and veneration due from their sundry stations. But more important, the Fraternity in Lodge assembly and in work must maintain a reverential awe for Deity, and must look to the Great Light of Freemasonry, the Holy Bible, for guidance and instruction.

So now you have problems with basing things on biblical principles? Come to think of it, depending on God for divine wisdom (See James 1:5), praying before every undertaking (see the Lord's Prayer, by your own comparison), and following principles based upon the Holy Bible--gee, you could be right, maybe this is worship, but if it is, it's closer to Christianity than anything I can think of--especially when you look at all the references where so many Masons see the "Lion of the tribe of Judah" as Christ, and don't seem to have any problem acknowledging it at all, even to the point of accompanying phrases about "the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world," "He who brought life and immortality to light," "He shall baptize you with water and with fire," "the One sent to bear witness of His Father before all the worlds," "God the Son," "Savior of the world," "the Root of David," "anointed of God and Royal Head of God's Kingdom," "Arose on the third day at the loud sounding voice of the Father," "symbols of the death, burial, and resurrection of the Redeemer," "born again by the direct action of the Redeemer," "our great pattern and exemplar," "He must reign until He hath put all enemies under His feet," "the Prince of Peace,"



and countless others I could refer to if not aware of constraints of time and space. There is such an overwhelming abundance that refutes your claim, I can't even begin to post it all. But this is certainly an ample sample, and taken from a wide range of "representative" sources. And even from sources you have always considered "representative" as well--places you obviously neglected to read anything but the isolated sentence quotes all your antimason buddies have posted out of context all over the internet. Sources which, by the way, you have been proven over and over to rely upon, right down to the deceptive ellipsing.


And based on your attempt now to declare the Lord's Prayer to be comparable to a Masonic prayer, I'd say your house is divided against itself, and certainly cannot stand. Little by little the house of sand you have constructed is crumbling, until eventually your house will be left unto you desolate. You would be wise to heed the advice of Gamaliel to "keep away from these men, and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it--lest you even be found to fight against God."


What will you do on that great day when you stand before Him and find out that the entire "work of your hands" that represents your faithfulness to Him, was to spend all your time railing against His servants?

 

[cwebber]

We had a Fellowcraft Degree last night at my Lodge and I thought I would share with you what was said by a Mason during the Good of the Order:


"Thru one man's Blood, Adam. All men came into the World. And thru One Man's Blood all men can goto Heaven if they only put there Faith in Him."

I just thought I would share that

 

[O.F.F.]

What will you do on that great day when you stand before Him and find out that the entire "work of your hands" that represents your faithfulness to Him, was to spend all your time railing against His servants?

You can find all the quotes you can to try to rationalize and soothe your conscience and mislead folks into thinking that Freemasonry is somehow "Christian" but it's NOT. It welcomes pagans from all false religions along with Christians making it an "equal opportunity deceiver." And since it is a world system, as far as the Bible is concerned, any Christian who participates in it is a friend to the world, and any friend to the world is an enemy against God (James 4:4). As such anyone involved in Freemasonry doesn't serve God, but they ultimately serve the prince of this world -- SATAN.

What will you do on that great day when you, a supposed Christian pastor, stand before God in your Masonic apron and regalia that they'll probably bury you in and find out that your entire involvement in Freemasonry burns in fire along with your apron like wood, hay or straw, because the foundation of Freemasonry is not Jesus Christ but some man-made, discriminatory, self-glorifying, works-based religious fraternity (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)?

Yes, on that great day your Masonic Apron will either fall off or burn off. Either way it will be O.F.F. not from!

 

[Rev Wayne]

You can find all the quotes you can to try to rationalize and soothe your conscience and mislead folks into thinking that Freemasonry is somehow "Christian" but it's NOT.

Well, let's see: when it was only Mackey I was finding who was interpreting the Lion of the tribe of Judah as Christ, you were insisting it was only incidental or isolated or whatever. Now that you see posted before your very eyes the proof that most of the Masons you have typically quoted by way of accusation, also interpret this as Christ: the best you can do is accuse me of "rationalizing?" Since when is hard factual evidence categorized as "rationalizing?"

The main bone I pick with you about it is your treatment of Christian Masons, and I have seen plenty enough of it to understand that your behavior towards them would be reprehensible enough if it were anyone else, but is made all the worse by it being aimed at your fellow Christian brothers.

And let me spell it out for you once again, since your memory on this fact is as short as your memory of me posting all this to you before:

I am not now trying, nor have I ever tried, to suggest to you or anyone else that Freemasonry is Christian. The fact that it is not is easy enough for everyone to see, provided they have not gone off the deep end and developed some weird notion that Freemasonry is a religion. All I have pointed to here is one interpretation, with which you chose to put up strong disagreement. You have insisted that "Lion of the tribe of Judah" as mentioned in Masonry does not refer to Christ. I have simply posted the proof that contradicts your claim. Masons that you yourself have quoted authoritatively to make any of a number of accusations, have all said the very thing that you deny, that this is none other than Jesus Christ referred to in the mention of the "Lion of the tribe of Judah."

And I fail to see how you can look at expressions like
"the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world," "He who brought life and immortality to light," "He shall baptize you with water and with fire," "the One sent to bear witness of His Father before all the worlds," "God the Son," "Savior of the world," "the Root of David," "anointed of God and Royal Head of God's Kingdom," "Arose on the third day at the loud sounding voice of the Father," "symbols of the death, burial, and resurrection of the Redeemer," "born again by the direct action of the Redeemer," "our great pattern and exemplar," "He must reign until He hath put all enemies under His feet," "the Prince of Peace"



and call it "rationalization." After all, Michael, these are quotes of those same Masonic authors, from the same quotes above where they identify the Lion of Judah as Christ, not my own words.

I get the feeling it's all just taking a sour attitude at seeing that I am not the only Mason who speaks of Christ "properly" enough to be called "evangelical" or whatever name you choose to label it by. Especially coming from some of your favorite "sources." That's understandable.

anyone involved in Freemasonry doesn't serve God, but they ultimately serve the prince of this world -- SATAN.

You sure are all over the charts lately. You've gone from comparing the Lord's Prayer to a Masonic prayer in your last post, back to accusations of being satanists.

You really are getting confuseder and confuseder.

you, a supposed Christian pastor

I was called by God, no ifs, ands, or buts about it, and you know that. To state this in the questioning terms you do is to question God, not me.

But don't sweat it, when I ran from it for 14 years, I guess that was questioning it, too, and He forgave me. There's still hope.

What will you do on that great day when you, a supposed Christian pastor, stand before God in your Masonic apron and regalia that they'll probably bury you in and find out that your entire involvement in Freemasonry burns in fire along with your apron like wood, hay or straw, because the foundation of Freemasonry is not Jesus Christ but some man-made, discriminatory, self-glorifying, works-based religious fraternity

My foundation is and has always been Jesus Christ. You are once again confusing fraternity with religion, making for convoluted statements. Besides, if you're attempting to put this back to me by way of comparison, you're not even close. I have never once doubted your Christian faith, only the directions you pursue with it. You, on the other hand, accuse your Christian brothers of satanism, and spew out insults and personal defamations at God-called pastors. That is a huge difference.

We don't bow to symbols, we don't ride the goat, we aren't satanists. And from the obvious Christian expressions found in the quotes I posted, some of the most prominent Masonic writers, even the ones whose words antimasons twist to create their deceptions, were decidedly Christian themselves.

No, I haven't tried to show that "Freemasonry is Christian"--it clearly is open to all. I have simply countered your age-old claim of "incompatibility" with proof that even the most prominent Masons have interpreted Christ in its symbols without contradiction.

Throw more rocks if you like. The target is so badly missed I won't even bother about them any more, they pose no threat.

 

[cwebber]

Yes, on that great day your Masonic Apron will either fall off or burn off. Either way it will be O.F.F. not from!

Let's revial the orginal quote from which this one comces shall we.

"The same fate awaits the Christian Mason as it does the Hindu, Muslum, and the Jewish Mason. The Apron will either come off or it will burn off"

So tell us Mister Gentry why do you contuine to stand with people who claim that the Blood of Christ can not over come Freemasonry that if a Person is a Christian and is a MAson they will still Burn In Hell. Tell me were Biblically can you back this claim up?

And why do you contuine to stand with such People who deminish the Blood of Christ?

 

[O.F.F.]

All I have pointed to here is one interpretation, with which you chose to put up strong disagreement. You have insisted that "Lion of the tribe of Judah" as mentioned in Masonry does not refer to Christ. I have simply posted the proof that contradicts your claim.

You haven't proven anything, you know darn well that the same authors you quote have contradicted themselves by talking about non-Christian interpretations of Masonry as well.

But, let me use that same lame excuse you and other Masons use when they are trapped by the statements of their own brethren, that is, neither the Grand Lodge of Texas, Henry Wilson Coil, Albert Mackey, Macoy, the Masonic Bible, K.J. Stewart, occultist Albert Pike, satanist Arthur Waite, Carl Claudy, ancient mystical egyptian occultist George Steinmetz, the Missouri Masonic Lodge of Research, esoterist Manly P. Hall, Max Heindel, Corey Webber nor the reverend Wayne Majors speaks on behalf of all Freemasonry!

If Freemasonry is open to any interpretation one sees it to be, then the Ex-Mason's for Jesus interpretation and that of the vast majority of Christian denominations is just as valid as your own warp view of it. We see evil, you see good, and God knows exactly what it is and you'll find out soon enough that you were WRONG ALONG. I know you are sincere about Freemasonry, but you are sincerely WRONG. However, it's a free country and you have the right to be WRONG.

 

[urnotme]

That's just it, they're not even a religion and don't tell anybody how to find salvation. You'd think that would be clear enough when you consider that they teach eternal life as a truth, yet they don't name the final destination, which to some is called heaven, some by other names. Or do they? Actually, in the 28th degree, it says, "the true Mason [is one] who raises himself by degrees till he reaches heaven." Well, if that is the way Masonry defines it, guess which "religion," if they were one, they'd have to be?


That means nothing when you consider how many times ex-Masons and antimasons have been caught in deliberate lies. A TON of lies is still lies, the abundance of them only makes it worse, not better.


The fact that you express it as "one" GAOTU tells me you misunderstand this as something other than what it is. It is simply a phrase which is the equivalent of saying "God," which itself is a non-specific term. And I dare say GAOTU as a non-specific reference to Deity works better than God, because it is more descriptive and declarative, outlining at least two common beliefs about God--(1) that He is Sovereign, (2) that He is Creator.

I'll leave who God chooses to reveal Himself to up to Him.


So,. am I to believe that someone who knows where to find "TONS" of information on Freemasonry doesn't know where he can find one single solitary page detailing Hiram?

I think your naivete is feigned, which draws into question your entire purpose for posting to the topic.

Your whole methodology is flawed anyway, you ask your questions and state your opinions as though Freemasonry were a religion instead of a fraternity.

From what I know about it, which is next to nothing I think it's more of a brotherhood of man that includes a lot of differant religions.

 

[Rev Wayne]

You haven't proven anything,

Frankly, I don't care how loud you can yell, loud yelling proves only how obnoxious the one doing the yelling can be.

you know darn well that the same authors you quote have contradicted themselves by talking about non-Christian interpretations of Masonry as well.

No contradiction at all, Freemasonry is open to a wide range of interpretation, and these men have clearly stated their interpretation of the Lion of the tribe of Judah.

Please try to keep up with the discussion, which at the moment is the Lion of the tribe of Judah and its interpretation by Masons. (In other words, quit trying to change the subject). What they have said on other subjects does not negate the fact that they have clearly stated Jesus Christ is the Lion of the tribe of Judah--which in the current discussion has not only been my main point, it is my ONLY point: "Masonic interpretation" of the Lion of the tribe of Judah is that it is a Messianic reference to Jesus Christ. You will find an occasional dissenting voice, the same as you find in any group, but the overall interpretation by far is, Jesus Christ is the Lion of the tribe of Judah.

neither . . . . speaks on behalf of all Freemasonry!

Sorry, but your accusation is not a valid one, nor is your oranges-to-apples comparison. When we have made that statement to you, it has always been at times when you cite one or two isolated references that differ greatly from what is generally stated elsewhere in Masonry.
The fact is, that is exactly what we have here again. You have lifted statements out of the Florida Grand Lodge Manual and tried to portray it as though it takes authority over Masons everywhere. It does not. It has authority in Florida.




This time I took a different approach and chose to show you just how many other sources refute your claim, so that you can see for yourself just what a minority opinion the Florida statement is.

But I see the Florida Manual was not the only source you used, you offered support from an Oliver Day Street. This is the first time I've seen the name.



You spend a lot of time raising criticisms of Masons "removing" mention of Jesus--yet when I prove to you that on this particular phrase and its interpretation, some of the most eminent Masons who ever lived are unanimous in referring its interpretation to Jesus Christ--suddenly you flip-flop on the issue and go out of your way to remove any mention of Jesus from it yourself. Thus you are now actively and vehemently and strenuously doing your flat level best to do the very thing you have accused Masons of doing.


And that is about the most completely and deliberately self-contradicting move I've ever seen you make.

neither the Grand Lodge of Texas, Henry Wilson Coil, Albert Mackey, Macoy, the Masonic Bible, K.J. Stewart, occultist Albert Pike, satanist Arthur Waite, Carl Claudy, ancient mystical egyptian occultist George Steinmetz, the Missouri Masonic Lodge of Research, esoterist Manly P. Hall, Max Heindel, Corey Webber nor the reverend Wayne Majors speaks on behalf of all Freemasonry!

So even an occultist can recognize that Jesus is the Lion of the tribe of Judah; even a "satanist" can recognize that Jesus is the Lion of the tribe of Judah; even an ancient mystical egyptian occultist can recognize that Jesus is the Lion of the tribe of Judah; even an esoterist can recognize that Jesus is the lion of the tribe of Judah;


but an antimason cannot! That's pretty revealing.

If Freemasonry is open to any interpretation one sees it to be, then the Ex-Mason's for Jesus interpretation and that of the vast majority of Christian denominations is just as valid as your own warp view of it.

So now you call the interpretation of Jesus as the Lion of the tribe of Judah a "warp(ed)" view??

That's even more revealing.

We see evil, you see good, and God knows exactly what it is

Well, my Bible says "Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy--meditate on these things."

Hence my admission of the statement in your own words, of why we "see good."

I'll leave it to you and God to decide why it is all you can see is evil.

 

[urnotme]

Answer: It is its own RELIGION, one with all other religions wrapped up as one!

Don't believe this folks, while those expressions are allowed in Freemasonry to have a 'Christian' interpretation, Wayne knows perfectly well that Freemasonry allows its members to 'substitute' any of these expressions to be 'representative' of a similar expression in their own religion.

Therefore:

"Lion of the tribe of Judah" is not only representative of Jesus Christ it can also be any "Messiah" figure drawn from any religion. The Hindu Masons called theirs Krishna; the Chinese Masons, Kioun-tse; the Persians Masons, Sosiosch; the Chaldean Masons, Dhouvanai; the Egyptian Masons, Horus; Plato, Love; the Scandinavian Masons, Balder; again the Christians call theirs Jesus; Jewish Masons call theirs "the coming Messiah" and Masons in general call him Hiram so that he (Hiram) can be 'representative' of any Mason's 'savior' deemed his 'Messiah.'

The Bible albeit called "The Great Light in Masonry" and is often quoted in Masonic ritual out of context, is merely 'representative' of any book any Mason deems 'holy' i.e. the Koran, Vedas, Book of Confucius, Gitas, Upanishads, Book of Mormon, etc.

Finally, Rev. Wayne's own Masonic ritual states that the symbolism that they are told representing patron saints, John the disciple and John the Baptist, do not actually allude to these two saints at all, but rather to Sun worship (p.99-102).

So Christian readers, if Freemasonry is a religion (and any dictionary or encyclopedia definition will show that it is) how can it be Christianity if it allows Jesus Christ, the one and only true Messiah, to be relegated to the same level as all false messiahs? How can it be Christianity if it allows the Bible, which is the one and only revealed Word of God, to be relegated to the same level as all false 'holy' books that God never inspired? How can it be Christianity if it allows Allah worship, Vishnu worship, Horus worship, Balder worship, etc. and even Sun worship? Because if anyone believes that the Sun is "a" Supreme Being, they would be eligible for Masonic membership based upon the requirement of belief in a Supreme Being.

Likewise, if anyone would simply read 1st and 2nd Kings of the Bible, which I have been doing during my daily devotionals recently, they will see that tolerating the worship of false deities is "evil in the sight of the Lord." Therefore, it stands to reason that if Freemasonry is a religion (which it is) it certainly isn't Christianity!

It sounds like a hodge poge religion, a mixture of several religions. A little bit of this, a little bit of that, but it might be up to the individual mason what he wants to believe.

 

[Plan 9]

thats why they criticize; ignorance

It's a studied ignorance, have you noticed? "A little learning is a dengerous thing."

 

[CrossMovement]

Hi, I really do not know much on the freemason other than a guy who his father was a freemason and spoke to us about his family being freemason at the past . The guy did a special saturday night preaching about the free mason at my church. He did talked to us about the free mason and how we shouldn't be in that stuff. He spoke to us about how to have a higher level and all that (I do not remember very well since it has been 1 1/2 years). But from what I have understand and has been showed it's that it is not about God not christianity and it's Demonic when you are becoming higher and higher on the degree . He spoke to us about tthat the founding fathers were free mason, that many HIGH profile people in US society are still today and all that (GWB). He even showed us some tapes about the rituals. Anyway, some of you might say :"Yeah well show me the tapes and what proof do you have ? I have NO proof just the guy who spoke about his family being free mason before so I am not here to prove anything just give what I remember about the conference.


Anyway it is called a SECRET society so they must have something to hide.

I haven't experience it for real but I do not want to be a free mason by a country mile.

 

[Plan 9]

Excuse me, CrossMember, but should we none of us have any secrets? Does having secrets always mean we have "something to hide", or that we simply don't wish to tell everyone every personal thing about ourselves? Is maintaining a small amount of privacy intrinsically sinful?
I'm honestly curious about what you think.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Anyway it is called a SECRET society so they must have something to hide.

Nice logic. So the Little Rascals and their "He-Man Woman-Haters Club" with the secret passwords and "high signs" of recognition must have been up to all sorts of evil also. And don't forget the Boy Scouts and their secretive Order of the Arrow. And I just know the United Methodist Women in my church are up to no good, I heard my wife talking about buying a gift for her "secret sister" the other day.

You'll have to pardon the facetious post, but sometimes the "reduction to the absurd" arguments are not only valid, they are the most fitting as well.

Now why do you suppose Jesus told people that when they do their alms, to do them in secret? Well, by the logic you've just used, "they must have something to hide."

But I certainly wouldn't press this one so far as to suggest anything about Jesus was "Demonic." Although I have to admit, there were paranoid conspiracists around even when Jesus walked the earth, because they accused Him of being demonic. If He came back today, all the conspiracists slamming the Freemasons would be on Him like a duck on a June bug.

 

[Plan 9]

Wayne, what are some more things Jesus told us to do in secret?

I'm having a 'senior moment' which has lasted for weeks now...