Free masons

[billmcelligott]

The grand architect. That refers to God in Masonry right?

OK, so someone tell me who was the architect of the universe ?

No waffle , just your opinion of who it was ?

 

[Bevlina]

OK guys & girls, keep the thread steady and nice.

 

[urnotme]

If you can't won't back up your statement with facts, then it's just a carnard.
I'm surprised that you can't see how similar it is to the canards frequently and wrongly applied to our MJ members here.
Now, I've been studying Tenach and Brit Hadasha for a really long time, so I'm afraid I need chapter and verse from you which makes my error clear by showing me that it's wrong to attend a farternal organization composed primarily of other confessing believers of my faith, wherein we remind each other to emulate the the qualities of five notable woman (four from the Tenach, one from the Brit Hadasha), pray together, sing hymns, have a business meeting, sing a last hymn, pray together once more, and then enjoy a pot luck which lasts two hours or more.

Is there a differance in regular masonry and freemasonry? Does the grand archetec refer to god?That would be an appropreate description.. I'm not going to criticize masonry because I don't know anything about it, besides everytime I throw a stone it comes back, I just want to know about it. From the litle bit I read I think freemasons are better christians then a lot of christians. Why are you all not considered christians?

 

[billmcelligott]

Belvina

That is one cart load of posts, have your fingers worn down?

 

[Bevlina]

ROFL Bill! I have worn one keyboard out!

 

[Rev Wayne]

Belvina

That is one cart load of posts, have your fingers worn down?

Never mind that, Bill, get a load of that reputation! Why, if we only had that kind of reputation, we wouldn't be dealing with all this in the first place.

 

[cwebber]

Wow- well, we certainly have found very different things!

Than are you Studying Regular Freemaosnry?

All I can say is- keep on studying. And good luck.

Same here as there is much you need to discover about Freemasonry.

"True reason for Freemasonry" --- What exactly is that, in your opnion.

A life of Servitude, to serve those around you to care for the sick, feed the hungry and shelter the homeless. The True Calling of Freemaosnry is to Love your Neighbor as you Love yourself or to Do unto Others as you wish to be threated. To be your Brothers Keeper.

Oh dear. We probably not only have found different things about Masonry, but also have a bit of difference in theology as well. "Defend" Christanity? as in apologetics- or what? Defend it against whom? And you get that G-d's name is JC? And that Masonry teaches this... like maybe some off shoot....

Are you sure you are studying Regular Freemasonry. In the Knights Tempalar Freemasons are told to Spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to Defend Christianity yes it ranges from Physical to Apologetics. For example I recieved a News Bulletin that told me the Christianity is under attack in America and the right to worship is being attack the reverence for God in under attack that to defend these rights to recognize God.


Read a Book from the Masonic Libaries called Ascension and you will see what I am talking about.

Sorry, I would like to... but I really cannot be drawn into a conversation about this right now. HOW many times have I said that in this post???! lol

As we have shown you there is alot about Regular Freemaosnry that you don't or are not willing to learn about the choice is yours. But remember before you claim something is in disagreement with God you need to research it more.

 

[cwebber]

The grand architect. That refers to God in Masonry right?

Masonic Bibles state it is Genesis 1:1

 

[e=mv^2]

I think that is one of his characteristtics. Reading these threads I makes me think that the most critical people usually know the least about what they're criticizing.

Um, how about reading the thread before posting?

Is there a differance in regular masonry and freemasonry? Does the grand archetec refer to god?That would be an appropreate description..

The grand arcitect refers to God in freemasonry. If you are a Muslim, Pagan, Hindu, whatever.... all of them refer to God as the Grand Architect. They at first denied it then gave proof of it.. read it for yourself.

I'm not going to criticize masonry because I don't know anything about it, besides everytime I throw a stone it comes back,

Yet you read my one quote and threw a stone without bothering to read anything else.

I just want to know about it. From the litle bit I read I think freemasons are better christians then a lot of christians. Why are you all not considered christians?

Because Freemasonry accepts people from any monothestic religion. So you could be a Hindu, Muslim, etc.

Now lets see...

I already have. Your question is irrelevant. As soon as you provide some solid documentation showing where in Masonry you find the "Masonic" quote on which you started this whole line of reasoning, don't expect any response. I can't find it in any Masonic sources, and the antimasonic sources where it appears are conflicting, claiming it comes from different degrees. Ankerberg claims 19th, another site claims 28th, I find a degree by the name Ankerberg gives for the degree, but it matches neither one, being the 17th degree Scottish Rite. But it does not contain the quote in question either. So it's my estimation that this is simply another antimason lie, and based on either something totally invented, or on something from one of the clandestine "Masonic" groups.

I then showed that you gave me the quote and you said:

And without bothering to check it out, even though it came from from one of these evil no-good Masons? Now you come on, "buddy." You still haven't satisfied the request and provided any real documentation of where it comes from. That is, unless you are willing to admit that the word of a Mason is trustworthy.

Who called any Mason evil? It is Masonry that I have the issue with - not the individual mason.

You are asking me to provide a source for a quote that YOU gave. How is that fair? I took you at your word on this quote - was I deceived?

It is my position that Freemasonry teaches a false plan of Salvation.

ANY follower of ANY monotheistic religion can join.

"the true Mason [is one] who raises himself by degrees till he reaches heaven."

That my friend is a way into heaven and a plan for salvation.

SO

ANY follower of ANY monothestic religion can join Freemasonry and ascend to whatever degree that quote is from and be told that it is by raising himself by degrees that he is to get into heaven.
THAT is a FALSE PLAN OF SALVATION.

That is as clear as it gets. Period. The End.

How does the true mason get into heaven? By raising himself by degrees.

How is it even possible that you do not see this? YOU GAVE IT TO ME.

You put more Faith in thous who have left Freemasonry than those who are still in it and have no Axe to grind over it.

No, I stated that there was alot of evidence that freemasonry was incompatible with Christianity. I asked for clarification and was given information that, if correct, proves that I am right. I have also gotten a massive kneejerk reaction and I am supposed to believe that the big secretive association is just fine and those that have left it are all just crazy, babbling looners that want someone to wrastle with.

"Not a religion" you guys say in one breath then:

What I have found in the Teachings of Freemasonry is that Freemasonry tells me to Spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ to All, and to Defend Christianity that the name of God is Jesus Christ the Messiah.

This is what I have found from beginning to the end of Freemaosnry.

HUH?

So if you wish to continue the point, be advised that by calling it "heaven," Freemasons have lined up with Christianity--and if you don't think there are "degrees" in Christianity, you haven't been reading your Bible.

Lots of religions refer to a heaven. Ask a Muslim what his heaven is like and tell me it is from the same God taht Christians worship.

But either way, the whole image of "climbing" is not dealing with "achieving salvation" anyway, it speaks of walking a journey with God. And on the journey with God, if you ain't climbing, you ain't on no journey.

Tripe. It quite plainly says that you get into heaven by raising yourself by degrees.

You tell me that Masonry is not a religion then post this:

It's the same old argument antimasons have been yammering about for ages now, dealing with one little isolated quote from the Lambskin Apron lecture about "purity of life and rectitude of conduct" being "necessary" for "gaining admission."

No... Not a religion... but we are going to tell you how to gain admission into heaven by being pure and of good intention.

And the answer is the same, it's the same scriptural principle involved in Psalm 24: "Who shall ascend into His holy hill? He that has clean hands and a pure heart." "Clean hands" = actions, "pure heart" = motives. Inward and outward are both necessary.

Um, who wrote the psalms? Were they written under the new or old law?
Again... not a religion...

Or Hebrews 14:12, "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." That word "holiness" is the same Greek word that translates as "sanctification." This is a process that is intended to be ongoing for the rest of one's life in Christ.

Great! The mason plan does not mention Christ tho. It just says that you raise yourself by degrees to get into heaven.

can post a hundred more references just like them if you wish, but I think these ought to be enough to raise the question of why you have a problem with a statement in Masonry that reflects a consistent theme found in Christianity?

But it is not a religion right?

And please don't hand me the worn-out response about it being true for Christian Masons but not so for the others, and therefore Masonry is giving non-Christian Masons false hope, yada yada yada

Do you believe that it is true for non Christian masons? (that's a yes or no question)

The non-Christian Mason probably exercises his Freemasonic right to reject that line anyway, because with "heaven" tacked on as the destination, he has just as much a problem with it from his standpoint as you do from yours.

Why do you think the word heaven causes all sorts of consternation with a muslim or jew? Generic make-my-own-religion-up-as-I-go monotheism?

Do you see that these words can be a MASSIVE barrier for someone that is just beginning to believe in a God? Someone walking in and looking for the truth and being taught that they can raise themselves by degrees to get into heaven?

That ought to be sufficiently clear--although I could also post an entire laundry list of other scriptural quotes to show that this is not any proof-texting, but a consistent biblical pattern such as the one Peter urges, to "Grow in grace, and in the knowlege of the truth." You will find it more, though, in Paul, who describes the Christian walk as a race, and urges us to run so as to compete for the prize. He exhorts us to come to the knowledge of the Son of God, so that we may come to a "measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ," and that, "speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ."

John 3:16. What does it say about works?

As for your "Muslim Mason," I've never met one, and to tell you the truth, I would think a Muslim would have a much harder time with Freemasonry than a Christian. But that's only my opinion. I hear there are Muslim Masons, but I would think such a man would be a conflicted Mason, with the only quotations in the Masonic rituals coming from the Bible and not the Koran.

Quotations from the bible in rituals. Not a religion tho.

Again - a simple yes or no will suffice.

Can a Muslim or a Hindu Mason raise themselves by degrees until they reach heaven?

This should be a very very simple answer for you. Exceedingly simple yet you are dodging it and I do not understand why.

 

[AlikhnKwizad]

"As we have shown you there is alot about Regular Freemaosnry that you don't or are not willing to learn about the choice is yours. But remember before you claim something is in disagreement with God you need to research it more. "

LOL... ok, man... you have no idea... but ok.

 

[AlikhnKwizad]

"And I thought we were accused of being secretive! What is it you fear from public posting?"

I do not have a fear of public posting, Reverand... I just made a promise. You can understand that I'm sure.

 

[cwebber]

LOL... ok, man... you have no idea... but ok.

Are you or have you ever been a member of Regular Freemasonry?

By your answer I will find out if you have an Ideal.

 

[Rev Wayne]

From the litle bit I read I think freemasons are better christians then a lot of christians.

I became convinced of this a few years ago, after some premier Christians with unmistakable influence on my life and the lives of many others, all died within a relatively short space of time. One of these men was the best Bible teacher I have seen, we had trouble keeping Sunday School classes going in our church because everybody wanted to go to his class--which had to be taught in the sanctuary because there was no classroom large enough. He was high school principal, and students years later were acknowledging that his influence had been the strongest one not only in their Christian faith, but in their whole attitude toward life. He would come around to homeroom classes after each report card went out, and spend 5 minutes with every student in the high school, going over grade reports, offering encouragement and support. At a time when schools were being forced to take prayer out, he was instrumental in keeping it in for the duration of the time he was principal. Each morning he read the brief daily devotional from the Upper Room magazine and prayed the prayer at the end of it. When Ms. O'hair's petition went around and she started making waves, he announced a date that he was to be required to stop. A petition was circulated and signed by every student in the school asking that he continue the practice. It turns out that was the only way we could possibly have had him continue, unanimous vote with no abstentions.

And at the time of his death, there stood that little notation in his obituary, "He was a Mason." I knew little about Masonry except that a church I had once belonged to had forbade membership in "secret societies, like the Freemasons," etc. But I knew enough about this man that I knew something was wrong somewhere, and his life spoke volumes against any idea that the "something wrong" had to do with him. Within about a year, a former minister from our church had died. When I was a teenager, his influence was a lifesaver. I had started hanging with the wrong crowd, my grades were dropping, I was expelled from school for five days during that school year. That summer, he arrived and took all the kids in the church to Epworth Camp Meeting where I found people with a faith that had a fresh vitality to it, the influence took root, and I went to an altar of prayer there and committed my life to Jesus. The difference in attitude and direction was instantaneous, and continued after return to school. The following summer I went to the camp again, and had my first recognition, at an altar of prayer, that God wanted me to preach the Gospel.

Some time after this man died, I had found an old ministers' manual from our conference, which lists every minister, his places of service, notes about his/her civic involvement, etc. And there in that list of things was the unmistakable little notation again:

"He was a Mason."

While at that camp, I met one of the most incredible Christians, the president of the camp meeting, who was one of the most gifted pastors I've ever met. When I think of the virtue of Christian humility, his face comes to me, he was such a humble, gentle, loving man with a wonderful warm sense of humor. He died shortly after that former pastor, and naturally with them both connected in my mind for what they had meant to me in life and by their proximity in death, I went back and read through the information beside his name, and sure enough, there it was again:

"He was a member of the Masons."

Those deaths weighed upon my thinking, not so much for the influence each had had on my life, as for that little notation by their names. One thing for certain I could not deny: their influence had been tremendous, and I would say had even made the difference in the fact that I was now serving as a minister of the Gospel. If what I had been told about the Masons were true, then, I had absolutely no explanation for my own spiritual grounding.

Long story short, that was the focal point of some little nudges I had been receiving from God on the matter, but was ignoring because with the things people say, I kept pushing it away saying "it can't be." In fact, I had been doing that for a number of years, saying no, this can't be an organization that's up to any good. Yet even then I had to deal with circumstances earlier in my life. My family has a genetic quirk of a trait that runs in my father's side, in which the fingers are webbed (syndactyly is the technical name). My younger sister was born with the last two fingers on each hand fused. With five children in the family and even with both parents working, they could not afford the relatively new (at that time) surgery to separate the fingers. The Shriners hospital near us, known for taking on children's afflictions, provided the surgery needed, completely free of charge. It was not until years later that I learned that the Shriners were an arm of Masonry.

From the first time I thought there was the least attraction of Masonry to the time I chose to join was 12 years. I hear similar stories from other Masons, indicating to me that for most this is a carefully considered decision. But when hearing some of the accusations and then making comparison with the men I have known who were Masons, it comes up "data input/output error." It just does not compute. And so the challenge I have consistently offered is, "If Freemasonry is so evil, show me all the evil Masons it has supposedly cast upon us." The pattern simply is not there and in fact tends in the opposite direction.

Why are you all not considered christians?

First and foremost, because of false understandings of the nature of Freemasonry by people who brand it as a religion. Masonry's own definition has been, for as far back as I can trace it, "a system of morality veled in allegory, and illustrated by symbols." Three parts to that definition, and the accusers get all three parts wrong. "System of morality" gets mistaken for being a separate religion; "veiled in allegory" draws strange accusations that reveal, more than anything else, that the accusers have no understanding of the nature of allegory; and "illustrated by symbols" never gets treated fairly, since most of the accusers are of a literalist bent and simply cannot understand things symbolically.

The accusations inevitably fall under one of these three categories. Some of the most common are:

"Grand Architect of the Universe," which gets mistakenly categorized as a "name." It simply speaks of God in a non-naming form, affirming that He is Sovereign Creator.

"Blood oaths." Yes, there are some grisly-sounding things in the oaths, which are from a bygone era when the government actually pronounced and carried out such sentences. And in fact, they once were more flatly stated than they are now, they have been changed in response to critics, with whom Masonry obviously agreed that they should not appear as they did. But Masons are big on preservation of tradition and reluctant to change that which has been passed down to them, so even with the alterations, they left them sounding similar to the original, so that no one has been satisfied with the change except Masons. But in both the rituals and in other places where similar reference is made, the thing referred to is always the importance of the thing being undertaken, and the "penalties" are inward and not anything to be inflicted upon anyone in any literal sense. The accompanying words are generally, "May the memory of it be to my conscience like the physical pain would be to my body, should I violate my solemn obligations."

"Christians are forbidden to take oaths." I say to this one, those who make the accusation do not understand what kind of "oaths" it refers to. Jesus spoke of the things men "swear by." So He instructed not to "swear by" heaven or earth, or all the things He named, but instead to "let your yes be yes and your no be no." In reality, someone being sworn in as a witness in a courtroom has done no different than what the Mason does in the Lodgeroom, concerning making a solemn promise. My own read of Jesus' comments on the matter is akin to someone in our time thinking God's last name starts with D, and every time they want to affirm something as true, using both "names" to state "You're (blank-blank) right it is!"
As for the other kind of vow, we find Paul even after becoming a Christian, partaking in a Nazirite vow, and seeing no apparent conflict with his Christian beliefs.

"It teaches works salvation." This is common, and I have found it to be chiefly based on one little phrase--can you believe it?--one little phrase that appears in one little lecture, out of all the volumes that can be found said in or about Masonry. It comes from the Lambskin Apron ritual, and simply states that the apron presented in the Master Mason ritual, by its being white and its being lambskin, should remind one of innocence and purity, which have been symbolized for ages by both the color white and by the symbol of the lamb. Unfortunately, in stating so, it reads,

The Lamb has in all ages been deemed an emblem of innocence; by the lambskin, the Mason is, therefore, reminded of that purity of life and conduct which is so essentially necessary to his gaining admission into the celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides.

The one line, "purity of life and conduct which is so essentially necessary to his gaining admission into the celestial Lodge above," has been the focal point of the severest accusations about "works salvation." But I have never met a Mason who would tell anyone that he makes it to heaven by his works. Nor have I met Christians who insist on works as the sole basis for entering heaven. But every Christian I meet will tell you it depends on the merits of Christ and His work on the cross to pay the price of salvation for us.
And I have consistently told accusers that for the Christian Mason it is seen no differently. Yet they continue to insist that because this one line is there we are somehow bound by their interpretation of it as Masons. Well, all I have to say, then, is that since Masons are told they may freely believe or dissent from whatever they wish, then if that line truly says "works salvation," then I reject the idea. But in truth, the phrase as it appears in its context is not attempting to make a statement about salvation, only about the idea of innocence represented by the apron. And in its older forms, the lecture was much clearer about who it referred to:

The Lambskin has in all ages been considered as an emblem of innocence and peace. The Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world, will grant to those who put their trust in Him, peace. He, therefore, who wears the lambskin as a badge of Masonry, is reminded of that purity of life and conversation, which it is so absolutely necessary for them to observe, who expect to be admitted into the Grand Lodge above.

If the Lamb and the Lambskin were not enough to remind the Christian Mason of the "Lamb of God," then certainly the now-excised line above would have been.

"Prayer in Jesus' name is forbidden." This is a mischaracterization that makes it appear as though the name of Jesus is singled out for special censure or something. The truth is, all Masons agree that religion and politics are not topics of discussion while Lodge is open. Yet even at that, I have heard "in Jesus' name" tacked on as often in prayer at the Lodge as I do at church--that is, regularly. It seems to be a natural expectation in a country where most Lodge members are Christians anyway.

"satanism." Different reasons are given, the most common is the mention of "lucifer." But Masonry was using the term "lucifer" even before it came to have the negative connotations it does now. It derives from an incorrect interpretation of the "lucifer" in Isaiah 14 as satan, an interpretation not borne out at all by the context. It has been hyped up into overdrive by misinterpreted comments by Albert Pike. It has been perpetrated by people who mostly make accusations about things they have no knowledge of anyway, pointing fingers at the "higher degrees" of Masonry. Yet even former Masons who are now antimasons will admit they have seen no evidence of it while they were involved in Masonry.
I've even seen accusations made based on the "so mote it be" that ends prayers in the Lodge, simply because they have seen the same phrase used in satanic ritual or in Wicca or someplace. But all it is, is an archaic expression similar to what is being affirmed with "amen." In the Middle Ages, it was commonly used at the end of Christian prayers, and I have even found examples of it in older forms of prayers, particular medieval forms of the Lord's Prayer. I have found prayer in the Lodge to be no different, and in fact perhaps an even greater sense of reverence than found in many churches. In ours and in many Lodges, the "Shepherd's Prayer" form is used, of crossing the arms over the breast to form the shape of the cross, also emblematic of Jesus the Good Shepherd. The figure is one used by the shepherds to carry a lamb back to the fold, carrying it draped over their neck, and the arms folded to protect against the lamb falling if the shepherd's foot should hit a rock and he should stumble.

"Hiram Abiff (a personage in the Master Mason dramatic ritual) has roots in ancient Egypt, in Osiris and Isis." You will find this objection to be common also, but I have read the stories of Osiris and Isis and there are no parallels. The stories are very different. I've even seen some who make the absurd objection that the MM degree is somehow a "Masonic baptism"--in a ritual in which no water appears in the story whatsoever!

I won't try to enumerate all the eternal objections of the antimason crowd, that would take far too long. This post is a bit long already, and I won't put you or anyone else through that. The objections have been countered over and over, and yet like the Hydra, two heads grow where one is eliminated. People love a conspiracy, and everybody wants to be on the accusing side.

 

[Rev Wayne]

"And I thought we were accused of being secretive! What is it you fear from public posting?"

I do not have a fear of public posting, Reverand... I just made a promise. You can understand that I'm sure.

Just a light-hearted poke intended to keep things friendly, as our moderator has advised us. I'm sure you can understand that as well.

 

[cwebber]

Can an Aieist no more about a Church and it's system of working than someone who is a member of that Church even thou the Aiestist has never set foot in the Church.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Again - a simple yes or no will suffice.

Can a Muslim or a Hindu Mason raise themselves by degrees until they reach heaven?

This should be a very very simple answer for you. Exceedingly simple yet you are dodging it and I do not understand why.

Nothing is ever simple as you try to make it. But the answer, if you really want to interpret it the way you have, is no, N-O, NO, not only for the Muslim or the Hindu Mason, but for the Christian Mason as well. I should think an examination of the context, though, will show that the statement as it appears apart from its context would look very different in its context.



My response to you was very clear, so I suggest you read my response rather than repeating your question and pretending I have not responded—page 12, post #113. For even though it is not the means of salvation, it is certainly a Christian response to the salvation Christ brings, to follow the instructions in the Word to “raise himself by degrees”—which is as apt a description as any, of the exhortations we have received to take part in our own process of sanctification by seeking it. Even Christ Himself said to “strive to enter in at the strait gate.” I should think if our own efforts mean nothing in this endeavor, our Lord Jesus Christ would not be giving us instructions to make such effort. And the fact is, you will probably find similar expressions in any other faith system as well.



But the glaring error you are guilty of is the same error others have been guilty of when they insist on making the Lambskin Apron lecture the be-all and the end-all of what Masonry says on the matter. There are far more expressions to be found in Masonry that urge dependence on God. If the above statement, in its context, contains similar statements that indicate the Mason is aware that it is God doing the raising and not the Mason, then your accusation is null and void. And unless you can provide the context and show differently, you have not verified your accusation either.

Lots of religions refer to a heaven. Ask a Muslim what his heaven is like and tell me it is from the same God taht Christians worship.

To a Muslim the word would be “Jannah,” or they would refer to the “Gardens of Paradise”—again indicating what I am saying, the expressions of it are different among different religions, and their ideas of it as well. But since Masonry used the word “heaven” as I’ve shown, again I repeat the question:


If Freemasonry were a religion (which it is not), then which one would it have to be? Which one would its expressions and affirmations about God most resemble? Things like the “Lion of the tribe of Judah, who has prevailed to open the seven seals?” Things like “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live?” Things like “Wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them?” Things like teaching a bodily resurrection? Things like having as patron saints, John the disciple and John the Baptist? Things like scripture references and direct quotes that come from both the Old and New Testaments—and from no other “holy book?” Things like the Holy Bible as the “Great Light of Masonry?”



All of these things find expression in Masonry—can you simply name for me, what religion would Masonry have to be if it truly were one?



Since you are fond of yes/no type questions:



Jesus is the Lion of the tribe of Judah, who has prevailed to open the seven seals—yes or no?



Jesus is the one who said, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live”—yes or no?



Jesus is the one who said, “Where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them”—yes or no?



Christianity is the only major religion that teaches a bodily resurrection—yes or no?



Christianity is the only religion with adherents named John the disciple and John the Baptist—yes or no?



Christianity is the only religion that considers the Bible, Old and New Testaments, to be the inspired Word of God—yes or no?



And if you cannot give a simple yes or no to these questions about expressions found in both Christianity and Freemasonry, then will you at least agree with me that using such demands for yes or no responses in an attempt to badger someone into an answer that is immensely more complicated, is not a valid debating approach?

 

[e=mv^2]

Nothing is ever simple as you try to make it. But the answer, if you really want to interpret it the way you have, is no, N-O, NO, not only for the Muslim or the Hindu Mason, but for the Christian Mason as well.

Thanks Rev. for the answer.

Nothing is ever simple as you try to make it.

Everything is simple until obfuscated.

I should think an examination of the context, though, will show that the statement as it appears apart from its context would look very different in its context.

Unfortunately I have never seen that quote fully in context. The only context I have seen it in was in your posts.

But the glaring error you are guilty of is the same error others have been guilty of when they insist on making the Lambskin Apron lecture the be-all and the end-all of what Masonry says on the matter.

I have not seen nor heard the lambskin lecture except what you posted earlier. How can I commit this error?

There are far more expressions to be found in Masonry that urge dependence on God. If the above statement, in its context, contains similar statements that indicate the Mason is aware that it is God doing the raising and not the Mason, then your accusation is null and void. And unless you can provide the context and show differently, you have not verified your accusation either.

Why does masonry urge a dependance on God? It is not religion right?

Allow me to give you an example.
Soccer is not religion (although some may disagree, Celts and Huns quiet please). Soccer makes no statements about God. Soccer can be played by anyone that is physically capable. Soccer is not religion.

My fraternity in College was not religion. We drank beer. Thats about all we did. We did not have any texts that told us what to think about religion, heaven, or God. That was not religion.

Masonry makes lots of statements about religion. It requires you to take at faith that there is a single God that created the universe. It describes ALOT of religions things. It requires you to take oaths that are specifically forbidden in the bible.
So again:
Masonry requires faith in a god.
Masonry dictates moral and ethical guidelines.
Masonry describes a methodology for gaining entrance to heaven.
Masonry is not religion?

Lets see what wiki says...

Religion—sometimes used interchangeably with faith or belief system—is commonly defined as belief concerning the supernatural, sacred, or divine, and the moral codes, practices and institutions associated with such belief. In its broadest sense some have defined it as the sum total of answers given to explain humankind's relationship with the universe. In the course of the development of religion, it has taken a huge number of forms in various cultures and individuals. Occasionally, the word "religion" is used to designate what should be more properly described as a "religious organization" – that is, an organization of people that supports the exercise of some religion, often taking the form of a legal entity. See religion-supporting organization.

Not a religion eh?

MANY churches have spoken on the issue. They say that masonry is not compatible. The masons say that it is. It boils down to this:
Are you going to listen to the Churches or the Masons?

 

[O.F.F.]

If Freemasonry were a religion (which it is not), then which one would it have to be?

Answer: It is its own RELIGION, one with all other religions wrapped up as one!

Which one would its expressions and affirmations about God most resemble? Things like the “Lion of the tribe of Judah, who has prevailed to open the seven seals?” Things like “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live?” Things like “Wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them?” Things like teaching a bodily resurrection? Things like having as patron saints, John the disciple and John the Baptist? Things like scripture references and direct quotes that come from both the Old and New Testaments—and from no other “holy book?” Things like the Holy Bible as the “Great Light of Masonry?”

Don't believe this folks, while those expressions are allowed in Freemasonry to have a 'Christian' interpretation, Wayne knows perfectly well that Freemasonry allows its members to 'substitute' any of these expressions to be 'representative' of a similar expression in their own religion.

Therefore:

"Lion of the tribe of Judah" is not only representative of Jesus Christ it can also be any "Messiah" figure drawn from any religion. The Hindu Masons called theirs Krishna; the Chinese Masons, Kioun-tse; the Persians Masons, Sosiosch; the Chaldean Masons, Dhouvanai; the Egyptian Masons, Horus; Plato, Love; the Scandinavian Masons, Balder; again the Christians call theirs Jesus; Jewish Masons call theirs "the coming Messiah" and Masons in general call him Hiram so that he (Hiram) can be 'representative' of any Mason's 'savior' deemed his 'Messiah.'

The Bible albeit called "The Great Light in Masonry" and is often quoted in Masonic ritual out of context, is merely 'representative' of any book any Mason deems 'holy' i.e. the Koran, Vedas, Book of Confucius, Gitas, Upanishads, Book of Mormon, etc.

Finally, Rev. Wayne's own Masonic ritual states that the symbolism that they are told representing patron saints, John the disciple and John the Baptist, do not actually allude to these two saints at all, but rather to Sun worship (p.99-102).

So Christian readers, if Freemasonry is a religion (and any dictionary or encyclopedia definition will show that it is) how can it be Christianity if it allows Jesus Christ, the one and only true Messiah, to be relegated to the same level as all false messiahs? How can it be Christianity if it allows the Bible, which is the one and only revealed Word of God, to be relegated to the same level as all false 'holy' books that God never inspired? How can it be Christianity if it allows Allah worship, Vishnu worship, Horus worship, Balder worship, etc. and even Sun worship? Because if anyone believes that the Sun is "a" Supreme Being, they would be eligible for Masonic membership based upon the requirement of belief in a Supreme Being.

Likewise, if anyone would simply read 1st and 2nd Kings of the Bible, which I have been doing during my daily devotionals recently, they will see that tolerating the worship of false deities is "evil in the sight of the Lord." Therefore, it stands to reason that if Freemasonry is a religion (which it is) it certainly isn't Christianity!

 

[Rev Wayne]

I have not seen nor heard the lambskin lecture except what you posted earlier. How can I commit this error?

Who said you did? When did you become a “they?” I only said you committed the same error they did, since both of you were basing conclusions about so-called “works salvation” on one-line quotes.

Unfortunately I have never seen that quote fully in context. The only context I have seen it in was in your posts.

Thank you for your frank admission that you are eminently unqualified to offer an interpretation of what Masonry has to say in this one-line quote,which, not being capitalized, is obviously not even an entire sentence quote.

Why does masonry urge a dependance on God? It is not religion right?

No, it is a “system of morality, veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols.” Morality, not religion, but they rightly recognize that all true morality must come from God or it is insufficiently grounded.

Masonry describes a methodology for gaining entrance to heaven.

If you feel comfortable using the word “methodology,” feel free—but you have not established this with a one-line quote. And since you are unfamiliar with the lambskin lecture, you have only half the foundation antimasons build this “case” with.

 

[billmcelligott]

Are you going to listen to the Churches or the Masons?

Of course you should remember that the vast majority, about 80% of Masonic population of the world attend Christian Churches ?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

We see here that Christianity has about 33% of the worlds population claiming membership. From this approximately 4.8 Million Freemasons claim membership.

So it is not an either or situation. Posters are trying to give the impression that Freemasonry is a Religion, if that is so why do its members not give up their Christian Faith. Its easy to do, you just say OK I am not a Christian, There is nothing to stop every one of those 4.8 saying just that.

So ask yourself why they do not. to keep the answer un-obfuscate. Because they believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and savior and no one is going to tell them otherwise. Its called Faith, a blind faith that will not be moved shuffled or shifted by others.

It is very common that the active Mason is an active Church member. You may wish to refer to Waynes piece to see , where did he meet his Masons?

The detractors would have you believe that these men of good, honest and true character , pray to a concocted God on Friday and go to Church on Sunday. Ask yourself why? why on Earth would they bother.