Free masons

[e=mv^2]

Still waiting on an answer to:

Tell me Rev, point blank - Is it possible for a Muslim Mason to raise themselves by degrees till he reaches heaven? A Hindu?

When you get the chance Rev, please respond.

 

[AlikhnKwizad]

I told myself when the post reaches 100 I'll read the last page... So here I am... There is so much I could say, but I made a promise to someone ... so I can't share...

I am amazed at how many christians still defend masonry. It is absurd.

 

[Rev Wayne]

When you get the chance Rev, please respond.

I already have. Your question is irrelevant. As soon as you provide some solid documentation showing where in Masonry you find the "Masonic" quote on which you started this whole line of reasoning, don't expect any response. I can't find it in any Masonic sources, and the antimasonic sources where it appears are conflicting, claiming it comes from different degrees. Ankerberg claims 19th, another site claims 28th, I find a degree by the name Ankerberg gives for the degree, but it matches neither one, being the 17th degree Scottish Rite. But it does not contain the quote in question either. So it's my estimation that this is simply another antimason lie, and based on either something totally invented, or on something from one of the clandestine "Masonic" groups.

You wanted point blank, you got it, let the chips fall where they may.

 

[urnotme]

I think a lot of the founding fathers were masons, others were deists, I don't think any would fit the modern definition of a christian. For christians who are supposed to judge not lest we be judged, we sure do a lot of judging.

 

[Rev Wayne]

I think a lot of the founding fathers were masons, others were deists, I don't think any would fit the modern definition of a christian. For christians who are supposed to judge not lest we be judged, we sure do a lot of judging.

Read some of the founding fathers' own writings and you will find a very different picture than the Deism someone has tried to substitute for their Christianity. When the first settlers came here to pursue "religious freedom," they were fleeing the strictures of the nationally established Church of England. Those who did not prefer to worship in the specific manner they demanded were treated as sub-Christian. The majority of people by far who came to this country in those early days were Christian--various flavors of it, but most certainly the prominent religion was Christianity. In fact, of the founders, the one most aptly described as Deist was Benjamin Franklin. Yet even he is found quoting the Bible throughout his writings, and with great familiarity. And he was fond of going to hear George Whitefield preach.

But the one man who was most prominently a Mason, George Washington, was also a Christian and not a Deist. It is evident from his letters and other correspondence that this was so:

Head Quarters, V. Forge, Saturday, May 2, 1778.

Parole Bavaria. Countersigns Bristol, Burlington.

The Commander in Chief directs that divine Service be performed every Sunday at 11 oClock in those Brigades to which there are Chaplains; those which have none to attend the places of worship nearest to them. It is expected that Officers of all Ranks will by their attendence set an Example to their men.

While we are zealously performing the duties of good Citizens and soldiers we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of Religion. To the distinguished Character of Patriot, it should be our highest Glory to add the more distinguished Character of Christian. The signal Instances of providential Goodness which we have experienced and which have now almost crowned our labours with complete Success, demand from us in a peculiar manner the warmest returns of Gratitude and Piety to the Supreme Author of all Good.

GENERAL ORDERS Head Quarters, New York, July 9, 1776.

Parole Manchester. Countersign Norfolk.

The Hon. Continental Congress having been pleased to allow a Chaplain to each Regiment, with the pay of Thirty-three Dollars and one third pr month -- The Colonels or commanding officers of each regiment are directed to procure Chaplains accordingly; persons of good Characters and exemplary lives -- To see that all inferior officers and soldiers pay them a suitable respect and attend carefully upon religious exercises. The blessing and protection of Heaven are at all times necessary but especially so in times of public distress and danger -- The General hopes and trusts, that every officer and man, will endeavour so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian Soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country.

A Deist would not speak of "instances of providential goodness" or "the blessing and protection of Heaven." At least, not to my understanding of it.

These are not merely anecdotal, either, his Christian character was well known by all who knew him. It's incredible to see the campaign that is now underway to malign and defame him. Quite likely it was begun by antimasons, they've already shown their expertise and creativity with such things.

 

[billmcelligott]

I am amazed at how many christians still defend masonry. It is absurd.

If were not constantly being attacked, there would be no reason to do so.

 

[cwebber]

I think a lot of the founding fathers were masons, others were deists, I don't think any would fit the modern definition of a christian. For christians who are supposed to judge not lest we be judged, we sure do a lot of judging.

You would have to tell that to D. James Kennedy who has much evidence to the contray of your statement. So I would say do alittle more reseach before making such a claim. Our Country was founded on Judeo/Christian Doctorine and a Majority of Masons are Christians.

You are right in one thing they are not like Modern Christians they would travel for miles on foot or horse just to goto Church to hear about Jesus. We have cars and we still won't travel 5 miles down the road to a Church. And they were willing to die to worship God as the felt lead to instead of how the Church of England or the RCC told them to worship. So yes they are a bit different than the modern Christian they were more willing than the Modern Christian the would sacrifice more than the Modern Christian. They were a fine example for Modern Christians to follow if only we were willing to give up and much as they did for God and Country.

 

[cwebber]

I told myself when the post reaches 100 I'll read the last page... So here I am... There is so much I could say, but I made a promise to someone ... so I can't share...

So much you could say is is about Regular or Clandestain Freemasonry?

I am amazed at how many christians still defend masonry. It is absurd.

I am amazed at how many Christians still condem their Christian Brothers for being in Regular Freemaosnry.

 

[AlikhnKwizad]

"So much you could say is is about Regular or Clandestain Freemasonry?"

You probably already know the answer to that.

"I am amazed at how many Christians still condem their Christian Brothers for being in Regular Freemaosnry."

Man, I'm not condemning you or any of the others who are christian pro-masons. I don't really have a problem with someone of any other religion being mason at all. Go for it.

But there are, um, patterns I've noticed in the lives of those certain people who claim to be followers of Messiah & who have attached themselves to (through secret oaths) the organization of freemasonry. There are certain traits that these people share... a certain way of thinking... also a certain spiritual aura around them... And these things tend to lead (if feed) into darkness. That's really all I can say. And that is said about Regular Masonry... not even the Clandestain form... which I will not get into.

I think Masonry is great for Deists... and many others. But based on what I know to be true about HaShem... and what I know about both Regular & Clandestine Masonry, I'd have to say that it is not 'Christians bashing other Christians for being in Masonry....' So much as it is Christians who try to bring Truth to a fellow Christian about an organization they are in that has some very dark places... A reproof, instead of condemnation.

Even if you disagree completely, please do see it as others in the faith reproving, based on info. they have... instead of condemning . And maybe just pray about it- leaving all preconcieved ideas about wether masonry is ok or not... and ask HaShem to reveal His truth to you. Humble yourself. He might take you to some incrediable places.

That's all I have to say. I'll see where you guys are when you hit post 200. Shalom~

 

[stone]

i'll say this, i am learning as i go.

A few things of this group has been brought to my attention that is completely unacceptable.

There is an agreement between god and man, i'll leave it at that.

 

[cwebber]

But there are, um, patterns I've noticed in the lives of those certain people who claim to be followers of Messiah & who have attached themselves to (through secret oaths) the organization of freemasonry. There are certain traits that these people share... a certain way of thinking... also a certain spiritual aura around them... And these things tend to lead (if feed) into darkness. That's really all I can say. And that is said about Regular Masonry... not even the Clandestain form... which I will not get into.

What patterns do you speak of the Patterns I have seen in may experence with the Many Christian Masons I know is that they are reenforced for their Faith in Christ and Have a higher since of Duty that they owe to God. The attend Church on a regular basis and help the elderly and sick more that regular Church members this is what I have seen in Freemasonry of those Masons who are Christians. I have not seen a turn to the Dark Side in fact I have seen many due to the reenforced Teachings of the Bible to Masons abide by those teaches better because now they have to people telling them to abide by the Example the Bible sets for us the Church and Freemasonry.

Please explain either in publis or PM me this experince you have had with Freemasons who are Christians.

I think Masonry is great for Deists... and many others. But based on what I know to be true about HaShem... and what I know about both Regular & Clandestine Masonry, I'd have to say that it is not 'Christians bashing other Christians for being in Masonry....' So much as it is Christians who try to bring Truth to a fellow Christian about an organization they are in that has some very dark places... A reproof, instead of condemnation.

Well if you are Jewish than you would not fully agree with what Freemasonry says is True about God, Mostly because Freemaosnry presents Gos in the Threefold Aspect of the Trinity. In reality the God in Freemasonry is YHWH in Threefold Aspect of the Trintiy. Freemaosnry states that God in Freemaosnry is Genesis 1:1. Here are two direct references to God both refrences say the God of Freemasonry is the Christian God, YHWH, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

So please tell me about these dark places and you you think the god of Freemaosnry is.

Even if you disagree completely, please do see it as others in the faith reproving, based on info. they have... instead of condemning . And maybe just pray about it- leaving all preconcieved ideas about wether masonry is ok or not... and ask HaShem to reveal His truth to you. Humble yourself. He might take you to some incrediable places.

Reproving I have no problem with, But telling me as some Anti Masonic folk have than even thou I am a Christian as long as I am a Mason I will burn in Hell. That I do not agree with because it is unbiblical.

 

[e=mv^2]

I already have. Your question is irrelevant. As soon as you provide some solid documentation showing where in Masonry you find the "Masonic" quote on which you started this whole line of reasoning, don't expect any response. I can't find it in any Masonic sources, and the antimasonic sources where it appears are conflicting, claiming it comes from different degrees. Ankerberg claims 19th, another site claims 28th, I find a degree by the name Ankerberg gives for the degree, but it matches neither one, being the 17th degree Scottish Rite. But it does not contain the quote in question either. So it's my estimation that this is simply another antimason lie, and based on either something totally invented, or on something from one of the clandestine "Masonic" groups.

You wanted point blank, you got it, let the chips fall where they may.

Rev. Buddy. Come on now.
YOU YOURSELF GAVE ME THE QUOTE. POST #72

As soon as you provide some solid documentation showing where in Masonry you find the "Masonic" quote on which you started this whole line of reasoning, don't expect any response.

Where did you get it the first time? Have a look there. Do I get a response now?

That's just it, they're not even a religion and don't tell anybody how to find salvation. You'd think that would be clear enough when you consider that they teach eternal life as a truth, yet they don't name the final destination, which to some is called heaven, some by other names. Or do they? Actually, in the 28th degree, it says, "the true Mason [is one] who raises himself by degrees till he reaches heaven." Well, if that is the way Masonry defines it, guess which "religion," if they were one, they'd have to be?

Did you or did you not say that? Page back to #72 and read what you yourself posted.

 

[Rev Wayne]

You yourself gave me the quote post #72

And without bothering to check it out, even though it came from from one of these evil no-good Masons? Now you come on, "buddy." You still haven't satisfied the request and provided any real documentation of where it comes from. That is, unless you are willing to admit that the word of a Mason is trustworthy.

Where did you get it the first time? Have a look there. Do I get a response now?

Yes, you get a response now, since you have emphatically made my point for me by dwelling on it. Now that I'm sure you will stay there, read the rest of my post and you will find that I also asked you at the time, "If Freemasonry were a religion, which one would it be?"

So if you wish to continue the point, be advised that by calling it "heaven," Freemasons have lined up with Christianity--and if you don't think there are "degrees" in Christianity, you haven't been reading your Bible.

But either way, the whole image of "climbing" is not dealing with "achieving salvation" anyway, it speaks of walking a journey with God. And on the journey with God, if you ain't climbing, you ain't on no journey.

It's the same old argument antimasons have been yammering about for ages now, dealing with one little isolated quote from the Lambskin Apron lecture about "purity of life and rectitude of conduct" being "necessary" for "gaining admission." And the answer is the same, it's the same scriptural principle involved in Psalm 24: "Who shall ascend into His holy hill? He that has clean hands and a pure heart." "Clean hands" = actions, "pure heart" = motives. Inward and outward are both necessary. Or Hebrews 14:12, "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." That word "holiness" is the same Greek word that translates as "sanctification." This is a process that is intended to be ongoing for the rest of one's life in Christ.

"For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified.
For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit. But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you , for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another; and indeed you do so toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, that you increase more and more" (1 Thessalonians 4:3-10).

That ought to be sufficiently clear--although I could also post an entire laundry list of other scriptural quotes to show that this is not any proof-texting, but a consistent biblical pattern such as the one Peter urges, to "Grow in grace, and in the knowlege of the truth." You will find it more, though, in Paul, who describes the Christian walk as a race, and urges us to run so as to compete for the prize. He exhorts us to come to the knowledge of the Son of God, so that we may come to a "measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ," and that, "speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ."

"Measure?" "Increase more and more?" "Grow in grace?" "Grow up in all things into Him?" I can post a hundred more references just like them if you wish, but I think these ought to be enough to raise the question of why you have a problem with a statement in Masonry that reflects a consistent theme found in Christianity? And please don't hand me the worn-out response about it being true for Christian Masons but not so for the others, and therefore Masonry is giving non-Christian Masons false hope, yada yada yada. The non-Christian Mason probably exercises his Freemasonic right to reject that line anyway, because with "heaven" tacked on as the destination, he has just as much a problem with it from his standpoint as you do from yours.

As for your "Muslim Mason," I've never met one, and to tell you the truth, I would think a Muslim would have a much harder time with Freemasonry than a Christian. But that's only my opinion. I hear there are Muslim Masons, but I would think such a man would be a conflicted Mason, with the only quotations in the Masonic rituals coming from the Bible and not the Koran.

 

[AlikhnKwizad]

cwebber-

I would like to engage in a healthy conversation on the topic, but like I said earlier, I will not go into it now. "NOW" meaning, at this specific point in my life. And there are some things I just cannot share. Perhaps in a few months HaShem will direct me to talk about it... but for now, I can't go there.

I understand that there are many good people in the "regular" form of masonry... they just want to help people in need, etc. Many are happy where they are & don't have any desire to dig deep. I believe they are being ever so pleasantly decieved... but that's my view. You have a right to yours.

As far as "turnning to the Dark Side..." (lol) It may not be something that you would recognize. I could explain it in detail, but it's one of those things that if you've experienced it-then you know what I'm talking about.... and if you haven't, then you will have no idea.

It's a way the mind works- a certain logic- and a physical manifestation of it would be... like... um, a certain style of decorating. Attachment to certain kinds of objects... It's like, I can walk into someone's home, and know if they are involved in masonry or not. There are physical clues (and I'm not talking about they have their shriners hat on the table or something...lol) ...just the way things are arranged in the house... and then there are "spiritual" clues. There is a certain aura in the house... gives off a certain vibe... and if you are familure with it- then you just know.

And many people will have NO IDEA what I am talking about. You are propably one of them... and that's ok.

Have you ever read Albert Pike or Manly P Hall???????

And I don't mean just skim over it--- but have you ever really read it? All of it- ?

You read those guys (and writtings of those they hung out with), pray about it, and if you still think HaShem is smileing down on masonry... then, man, I don't know what to tell you.

If you are really looking to know G-d's heart on the subject... then just pray about it. Dig into scripture... maybe fast, or dedicate some time to expolreing the topic... and seek G-d out on this. That is really all I have to say.

My personal experiences, interesting though they might be, will ultimately mean nothing to you. In the end it's just YOU & G-D... so go ask Him, if you really want to know.

 

[AlikhnKwizad]

You PM ME if you have more... for now I am done with this post. I'll check in at #200. Shalom~

 

[cwebber]

I

would like to engage in a healthy conversation on the topic, but like I said earlier, I will not go into it now. "NOW" meaning, at this specific point in my life. And there are some things I just cannot share. Perhaps in a few months HaShem will direct me to talk about it... but for now, I can't go there.

That's fine but I will reply to the post and Pm you also. you do not have to reply back to the post as you wish to wait until #200.

I understand that there are many good people in the "regular" form of masonry... they just want to help people in need, etc. Many are happy where they are & don't have any desire to dig deep. I believe they are being ever so pleasantly decieved... but that's my view. You have a right to yours.

I understand what you are saying in other words they join for the experince of helping others and fellowshipping with no real desires to study the teachings of Freemasonry. I have meet sevral people like this they join for social reasons not the True reason for Freemasonry.

As far as "turnning to the Dark Side..." (lol) It may not be something that you would recognize. I could explain it in detail, but it's one of those things that if you've experienced it-then you know what I'm talking about.... and if you haven't, then you will have no idea.

Oh I think I understand you completly on this issue perhaps those you have meet are that way I have no ideal of knowing. But from my own experince with people for example a Group called Ephesians 5-11 who try to seem warm and fuzzy on the outside. But when you start talking to them you start to see that God in not in them there goal is not to reach Masons for Christ but to have an enemy to which to fight. You can sense it in their typing and chating they are not really in it for the Glory of God but for personnel gain of some sort wether it be pride or power I am not sure but it is not of God that much I am sure.

I have been in the presents of some people were the Holy Spirit tells me they are not of Him and have another objective in mine besides God or helping your. I have felt the Holy Spirit warn me many times another example was a Bible Saleman you just got this over whelming feeling that something was not right about Him like He did not have the cause of Christ behind Him.

I do think I have an Ideal of which you are saying but I will say this When I have entered a Masons house before every joining Freemasonry I had never seen Masonic Books or symbols anywhere expect for one who had a 2 dollar bill in a picture frame because His grandson helped sell Shrine Papers.

It's a way the mind works- a certain logic- and a physical manifestation of it would be... like... um, a certain style of decorating. Attachment to certain kinds of objects... It's like, I can walk into someone's home, and know if they are involved in masonry or not. There are physical clues (and I'm not talking about they have their shriners hat on the table or something...lol) ...just the way things are arranged in the house... and then there are "spiritual" clues. There is a certain aura in the house... gives off a certain vibe... and if you are familure with it- then you just know.

I don't think you can generalize this on all Masons, as most do not bring Freemaosnry how with them they leave it at the Lodge. Perhaps I have missed certian tell tell signs of a MAson but what would the clues be you would have to be much more specific than being so general in terms thou its a good tactic.

Have you ever read Albert Pike or Manly P Hall???????

Actually Manly P Hall would not really be worth reading about Concerning Masonry as He was not made a Mason until 1954. The Book He wrote was in 1923 thirtyone years before ever really knowing what Freemasonry was about.
Albert Pike I have read soem of His work not all but some it is online. But Albert Pike's Ideals have been proven wrong over and over again and His style of written also presents some issues He lived in a fantisy world concerning Freemaosnry. But allot of things He did do right. Beside Morals and Dogma shows allot about how Religions have simularities and at the Beginning I believe Alber Pike states that these are just His views.

But I have read more competant Masonic Writters and information. Who had the resources to research Freemasonry.

By the way did you know Freemaosnry was Christian Only at first. And still is in Sweeden were I might add a Majority of Which is Lutherian.

You read those guys (and writtings of those they hung out with), pray about it, and if you still think HaShem is smileing down on masonry... then, man, I don't know what to tell you.

If you mean Mackey and such than you do know that they were wrong as we have better resources now and I believe in another Thread Rev showed were Mackey retracked His statements about Freemaosnry's beginning as he did not know I believe.

If you are really looking to know G-d's heart on the subject... then just pray about it. Dig into scripture... maybe fast, or dedicate some time to expolreing the topic... and seek G-d out on this. That is really all I have to say.

I studied Freemaosnry for two years before joining even thou my papaw and Uncle were and are members and both were and are preachers. I know that Satan can trick anyone so that is why I studied for my Self on the issue of Freemasonry. From the Southern Baptist Convetion views to Ephesians 5-11 I have read both the Pros and the Cons on the issue. I have read today's Masonic Authurs who have done much more research than Mackey and Pike could have every dreamed of doing.

It all points back to a Christian Fraternity called Freemasonry, who later wanted to share it's teachings with others first starting with the Jews who were allowed Membership in the 1700s I believe. Were Freemaosnry stopped using the Term Jehovah for God and started saying just God as the Jews could not say the nme of God, Later a Prebytian Minister John Anderson who was influnced by John Calvin changed the God to Grand Architect of the Universe as it is written in either Psalms or Proverbs. Than the Ritual was introduced in 1725 by Ministerie John Anderson is said to be one of them that started it thou it is not proven.

My personal experiences, interesting though they might be, will ultimately mean nothing to you. In the end it's just YOU & G-D... so go ask Him, if you really want to know.

I did and have and still am asking God thats why I studied it for two years before joining thats why I contuine to study it. As I know I and responsible to God for my actions so I should always check what I am doing and what I am getting into God is guiding and watching all the way.

And So far I have not found anything in the Teachings of Freemaosnry that makes me think it is Evil.

What I have found in the Teachings of Freemasonry is that Freemasonry tells me to Spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ to All, and to Defend Christianity that the name of God is Jesus Christ the Messiah.

This is what I have found from beginning to the end of Freemaosnry.

 

[AlikhnKwizad]

"What I have found in the Teachings of Freemasonry is that Freemasonry tells me to Spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ to All, and to Defend Christianity that the name of God is Jesus Christ the Messiah. "

Wow- well, we certainly have found very different things!

All I can say is- keep on studying. And good luck.

"True reason for Freemasonry" --- What exactly is that, in your opnion.

Oh, forget it. I"m not going to get into it- although it is very tempting.

The more I read this:

"What I have found in the Teachings of Freemasonry is that Freemasonry tells me to Spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ to All, and to Defend Christianity that the name of God is Jesus Christ the Messiah. "

Oh dear. We probably not only have found different things about Masonry, but also have a bit of difference in theology as well. "Defend" Christanity? as in apologetics- or what? Defend it against whom? And you get that G-d's name is JC? And that Masonry teaches this... like maybe some off shoot....

Sorry, I would like to... but I really cannot be drawn into a conversation about this right now. HOW many times have I said that in this post???! lol

Yeah, PM if you want. That's it for this thread.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Sorry, I would like to... but I really cannot be drawn into a conversation about this right now. . . . Yeah, PM if you want.

And I thought we were accused of being secretive! What is it you fear from public posting?

 

[Rev Wayne]

I think I'm gonna have to leave here anyway. Every time I enter the thread, I'm reminded that our discussion is not about a religion, and that makes it a rather odd place to be.

 

[urnotme]

The grand architect. That refers to God in Masonry right?

I think that is one of his characteristtics. Reading these threads I makes me think that the most critical people usually know the least about what they're criticizing.