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Free from the inward battle with sin

HatGuy

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Hi everyone - I've been working for about two years on the subject of holiness and have been writing a book on it. When working through Romans 6,7,8 I've come to some interesting conclusions and I'd love to hear what others think of it (outside of the elders of my local church, who are busy working through the material).

It’s common to think of our Christian life as an inward battle of sin where we have to ‘overcome the flesh’. Typically we hear statements like, “feed the Spirit, starve the flesh.” We often hear people quote Paul from Romans 7 – “For I don’t understand what I am doing. For I do not do what I want – instead, I do what I hate” (NET) as a way of saying that we will always have a battle inside as Christians.

But is this really what Paul means? I'm leaning towards no. Throughout Romans 6 Paul has explicitly said that we are dead to sin (past tense) and made alive to Christ; we died with Christ (past tense) and were raised with him (past tense). He then speaks of the law in Romans 7 and talks of how we died to the law too, but then switches to a present tense when we come to Romans 7:14. But he ends off Romans 7 with a question: “Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ!” And then in Romans 8 he says that if we live by the Spirit we will not indulge the passions of the flesh.

The trouble with interpreting Paul as saying in Romans 7 that we will have an inward battle against sin as Christians and always be doing things we don't want to do is that it really seems to negate everything else Paul says – that we are, in fact, dead to sin and alive to Christ, ALREADY. It seems to me what Paul is actually doing in Romans 7 is he using the present-continuous tense: in other words, he takes us back to what it was like when he was under law, and under law he knew what was right but he couldn’t do it. But now, in the new life in the Spirit, he doesn't use law to do what's right but is rather dead to it. Rather, he 'lives in the Spirit'.

The point is this: if you try and live under the law you will have a constant inward battle, and one you will lose, as Paul did. But when he came to Christ he died to the law and began to live in the Spirit, and thus came to understand that the law is not how we live unto God but dying and being raised with Christ is how we live unto God. The answer to the frustration is not to go back to law but to actually realise you are free from law! Thus Paul is re-iterating what he said in Galatians – “Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?” (Galatians 3:1.) From Romans 6 – 8 Paul is highlighting that if you try and live according to the Law you will end up living a life of frustration because you will end up living a life of sin. Living under law means you live “according to the flesh” and cannot put to death the misdeeds of the body that way. That's why Romans 8:13 says, "For if you live according to the flesh [live in sin because of the law inciting this sin] you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

Why would you try to live under law? Because you are being self-righteous. You are not walking in faith but in unbelief. The law shows us how deep our self-righteousness goes and how utterly worthless our own righteousness is. However, if you forget that idea and see your self-righteousness for what it is and live by the Spirit, you will put to death the deeds of the body. The Gospel, therefore, is not about morality versus immorality but is something entirely different and new. You become a new creature! How? By faith – trusting in Christ and his work, and dying in him and being raised with him. Then neither law nor sin are your masters but only Christ, and you live by the Spirit.

Therefore, how do you continue to live by the Spirit? By not going back to law but remaining in faith – trusting Christ and relying on his righteousness and not your own. And this is, indeed, new life!
 

2KnowHim

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Absolutely,...When we live under the law, then we find that "The Accuser of The Brethren is there" Accusing us day and night, that's why so many struggle, and wrestle with sin, that is done away with in The New man. Jesus Christ paid in full the requirements of The Laws demands (which is Death) by His own death. Thank you Lord!! It is Truly by Faith we LIVE.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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you are free from law!

Please understand Jesus' words and not make statements dismissing the law.

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

The law is a set of commands to be followed. We should continue to try and follow them. While it was once thought that obeying the law was a source of salvation, that was never the case. The law was a covenant, something God's people did as a result of being God's people; a sign that they were God's people. Now we have communion, the new covenant, that is a reminder that we are God's people and saved by his death. Neither obeying all the laws or taking communion provide salvation; they are things we do as a result of being God's children.
 
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HatGuy

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Please understand Jesus' words and not make statements dismissing the law.

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

The law is a set of commands to be followed. We should continue to try and follow them. While it was once thought that obeying the law was a source of salvation, that was never the case. The law was a covenant, something God's people did as a result of being God's people; a sign that they were God's people. Now we have communion, the new covenant, that is a reminder that we are God's people and saved by his death. Neither obeying all the laws or taking communion provide salvation; they are things we do as a result of being God's children.
It would be interesting to see how you interpret the word 'fulfill' in the scripture you've quoted. The Greek word's meaning is interesting.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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It would be interesting to see how you interpret the word 'fulfill' in the scripture you've quoted. The Greek word's meaning is interesting.
I am not one to rest my faith on the translation and definition of one Greek word. Jesus did not even speak the quoted text in Greek, so the "exact" word has already been lost. Fulfill is a simple enough word and used repeatedly in scripture along with other text that speak of the "law" in the New Testament that I don't wish to argue what it means.

My point of contention in the very short words I quoted of yours is your statement "you are free from law". I even highlighted it in red to make it obvious what my beef was about. You don't defend your statement at all but want to argue the meaning of one Greek word.

I will again attempt to quote scripture so that you realize the law is still part of being holy.

Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’

Understand that Jesus' quote of Deuteronomy 6:5 is an affirmation to the continued importance of the law presented in the Old Testament.

Further recognize Jesus' words in the great commission to obey commandments.

Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
 
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2KnowHim

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Anticipate, you quoting from the Words of Jesus is exactly what the word "fulfill" means. No one is able to keep the law, it was never meant for us to. Jesus came to do that, so that through His Spirit obedience within us, We establish "The Righteousness of The Law". For it is The End of The Law to all those that believe, because Love fills up what was lacking, in our understanding of The law before He came. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. This is what was meant by "fulfill."

The children of Israel could not profit by the law because it was not mix with faith, now we have the Faith of The Son of God, that lives and abides in us. We as He, now automatically keep the Law because of His obedience not ours.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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No one is able to keep the law, it was never meant for us to.
How about you explain to me what these words mean: " I did not come to abolish the law". You need to distinguish between salvation and holiness. Salvation comes from faith in Jesus. Holiness is us maturing as Christians trying our best to follow everything Jesus commanded. This includes still following the law.

The children of Israel could not profit by the law because it was not mix with faith,
We will always profit by following all God's commands including the law. Just because it is not the source of our salvation does not mean we or them profit none by following it.

Have you not read Hebrews 11; it is filled with examples of Old Testament people with faith.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.
 
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HatGuy

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How about you explain to me what these words mean: " I did not come to abolish the law". You need to distinguish between salvation and holiness. Salvation comes from faith in Jesus. Holiness is us maturing as Christians trying our best to follow everything Jesus commanded. This includes still following the law.
The distinction is a good one but the point is that, as Christians, we don't follow the law as we go BEYOND the law. The law says "an eye for an eye" while Jesus says, "turn the other cheek." We live by the Spirit, not the law, thus going beyond it. Jesus went beyond it - "fulfilling it" and providing what it lacked, including salvation.

Holiness is living in holy love, walking by the Spirit and not the law. This Romans 6-8, the book of Galatians, Colossians 2, and of course other scriptures tell us. When Jesus said we must obey HIS commands he is saying we go beyond the law, which is impossible for man but all things are possible for God. Holiness is beyond morality or moral law, it is God's perfect, holy love - in us and through us by Him.
 
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Best friend

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Jesus said: "it is finish, "the law could not give life" my mission is finish, I brought the LIFE in the WORLD. (the first
Adam brought death) I brought Holiness in my name,
(he brought Sin in his name),
(upon his descendants). The rules and the standar bar for
Holiness is gone, (people still
Have their standards), but for Jesus it is the very specific
And individual requirement he
assigns to every one, within
His hart, and the imputed
Holiness in his name. New CVNT, with. His BLOOD.
 
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shakewell

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Therefore, how do you continue to live by the Spirit? By not going back to law but remaining in faith – trusting Christ and relying on his righteousness and not your own. And this is, indeed, new life!
But the "inward battle" still remains because our flesh wants to go back to law and doesn't want to live by the Spirit, and we'll have our ever-present flesh until our dying day here on earth.
When we get saved, we get saved from the penalty of sin (hell) and from the power of sin (Romans 6). But our flesh never got saved (flesh & blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God - 1 Cor. 15:50) When we die we leave our flesh behind and then we're saved from the presence of sin.
 
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Near

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Very interesting post.

It seems to me what Paul is actually doing in Romans 7 is he using the present-continuous tense: in other words, he takes us back to what it was like when he was under law, and under law he knew what was right but he couldn’t do it. But now, in the new life in the Spirit, he doesn't use law to do what's right but is rather dead to it. Rather, he 'lives in the Spirit'.
I'm glad to see someone has recognized the manner of writing that Paul is using. As you say, "he takes us back to what it was like when he was under law". He's illustrating a picture of what it was like. He's not currently, or rather, as he was writing, truly living in a unrighteous condition.

That's why Romans 8:13 says, "For if you live according to the flesh [live in sin because of the law inciting this sin] you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."
Here's the thing, I believe we're supposed to read this, and remember Galatians 5: 16-26 which lists certain qualities to have, and certain qualities to not have.

therefore, how do you continue to live by the Spirit? By not going back to law but remaining in faith – trusting Christ and relying on his righteousness and not your own. And this is, indeed, new life!
This is were I think you, and others, have missed the point. The law that Paul typically refers to, is that of the Torah. The issue wasn't about trying to be righteous, which some call self-righteous. The idea is that the law condemns him since he had sin, but Christ, through his death, and in him we die, and have died, we are released from the law, and it's sentence of death, and we rise in Christ, as he rose, a freed man, to live and serve God in holiness, as expressed by the fruits of the spirit, in righteousness that we personally exhibit and preform in our thoughts, words, and deeds all out of the faith that God has given us. It has nothing to do with the, I believe, misguided notion of Christ's righteousness imputed to our account. It has everything to do with Christ's death, and our deaths in him, and our release from the law's penalty, so that we live in the Spirit, in faith, which include the deeds of faith, including abstaining from sins. Note that living in the flesh, is not referring to following the law, but rather living sexually immoral, for example, is what puts us back under the law's penalty. If you have any contentions with any of these points, I can elaborate further.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Why would you try to live under law? Because you are being self-righteous.
Semi-right I think. Why live under the law ? But it is a good idea to obey the law (see red light below).
Since everyone called set apart, holy, faithful, in the Bible obeyed God (by faith)
and many of them were declared righteous by God in His Word,
(except those who grumbled against obeying Him even while they obeyed Him),
and God only called the ones who PRETENDED TO OBEY "self-righteous" and condemned that,
and
especially since Jesus said "If you love Me .. ... ... "
well,
or and also
in the united states if you run red lights you're liable to get hurt,
(is obeying the law bad ? )
No.
Obeying the law is not bad. God NEVER said that.
He just said no one can be declared blameless by the law.
BIG DIFFERENCE.
Look up "Torah" in the OT and the NT where it is translated correctly.
Very very very many revelations there about Torah - almost never even heard in chruch.
As Jesus said
Torah is good (even for the bones!) when it is used correctly . (As God Planned).
 
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bcbsr

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Hi everyone - I've been working for about two years on the subject of holiness and have been writing a book on it. When working through Romans 6,7,8 I've come to some interesting conclusions and I'd love to hear what others think of it (outside of the elders of my local church, who are busy working through the material).

It’s common to think of our Christian life as an inward battle of sin where we have to ‘overcome the flesh’. Typically we hear statements like, “feed the Spirit, starve the flesh.” We often hear people quote Paul from Romans 7 – “For I don’t understand what I am doing. For I do not do what I want – instead, I do what I hate” (NET) as a way of saying that we will always have a battle inside as Christians.

But is this really what Paul means? I'm leaning towards no. Throughout Romans 6 Paul has explicitly said that we are dead to sin (past tense) and made alive to Christ; we died with Christ (past tense) and were raised with him (past tense). He then speaks of the law in Romans 7 and talks of how we died to the law too, but then switches to a present tense when we come to Romans 7:14. But he ends off Romans 7 with a question: “Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ!” And then in Romans 8 he says that if we live by the Spirit we will not indulge the passions of the flesh.

The trouble with interpreting Paul as saying in Romans 7 that we will have an inward battle against sin as Christians and always be doing things we don't want to do is that it really seems to negate everything else Paul says – that we are, in fact, dead to sin and alive to Christ, ALREADY. It seems to me what Paul is actually doing in Romans 7 is he using the present-continuous tense: in other words, he takes us back to what it was like when he was under law, and under law he knew what was right but he couldn’t do it. But now, in the new life in the Spirit, he doesn't use law to do what's right but is rather dead to it. Rather, he 'lives in the Spirit'.

The point is this: if you try and live under the law you will have a constant inward battle, and one you will lose, as Paul did. But when he came to Christ he died to the law and began to live in the Spirit, and thus came to understand that the law is not how we live unto God but dying and being raised with Christ is how we live unto God. The answer to the frustration is not to go back to law but to actually realise you are free from law! Thus Paul is re-iterating what he said in Galatians – “Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?” (Galatians 3:1.) From Romans 6 – 8 Paul is highlighting that if you try and live according to the Law you will end up living a life of frustration because you will end up living a life of sin. Living under law means you live “according to the flesh” and cannot put to death the misdeeds of the body that way. That's why Romans 8:13 says, "For if you live according to the flesh [live in sin because of the law inciting this sin] you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

Why would you try to live under law? Because you are being self-righteous. You are not walking in faith but in unbelief. The law shows us how deep our self-righteousness goes and how utterly worthless our own righteousness is. However, if you forget that idea and see your self-righteousness for what it is and live by the Spirit, you will put to death the deeds of the body. The Gospel, therefore, is not about morality versus immorality but is something entirely different and new. You become a new creature! How? By faith – trusting in Christ and his work, and dying in him and being raised with him. Then neither law nor sin are your masters but only Christ, and you live by the Spirit.

Therefore, how do you continue to live by the Spirit? By not going back to law but remaining in faith – trusting Christ and relying on his righteousness and not your own. And this is, indeed, new life!

I think you also need to take into account Gal 5:16,17 "I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish."

Notice Paul uses the same rhetoric there as in Romans 7. And here's he clearly speaking of those who have the Spirit. So yes, it is to be a struggle. But I agree that he's not talking about living the Christian life in bondage to a set of rules and regulations as under the law.

So the struggle is there, but the law is gone.
 
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