Free choice

[leowls]

Since God gave men freedom in choice why should he punish them when they choose to do wrong and to condemn them to hell for all eternity. It's not like men asked God for it.

 

[agapelove]

Jesus did not come to condemn the world He came to save it.

We condemn ourselves when we choose to remain in sin.

 

[Ethalee]

Since God gave men freedom in choice why should he punish them when they choose to do wrong and to condemn them to hell for all eternity. It's not like men asked God for it.

Because people should be held accountable for their actions. If they are given the freedom to choose and they use that freedom to do evil then they deserve punishment.

 

[Not David]

They condemn themselves with the corruption of their soul

 

[childeye 2]

Since God gave men freedom in choice why should he punish them when they choose to do wrong and to condemn them to hell for all eternity. It's not like men asked God for it.

I don't believe that God ever gave mankind freedom of choice when it comes to the moral/immoral decision. I view the will that is moral, and not immoral, as a Character trait that is an attribute of God's Spirit or His Word within us from when we were created. So for example someone who is kind and caring would not be free to choose to be cruel and uncaring.

I do not wish to write a long post on the matter, so I'll just say that mankind became corrupted and therefore so did the will. This corruption began through belief in a lie that was told to mankind by the devil. This is why we see scriptures such as these that indicate that righteousness is a character trait of God and unrighteousness is a character trait of the devil:

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

 

[DerSchweik]

Since God gave men freedom in choice why should he punish them when they choose to do wrong and to condemn them to hell for all eternity. It's not like men asked God for it.

"Choice" implies options - along with consequences for each of the options.

Choice:
“From any tree of the garden you may eat freely [and not die]; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.” Gen 2:16a, 17

 

[childeye 2]

"Choice" implies options - along with consequences for each of the options.

Choice:
“From any tree of the garden you may eat freely [and not die]; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.” Gen 2:16a, 17

While it's true "choice" does mean options, it also can mean "decision" as in this is my "choice". It is inevitable that when a choice/option is placed in front of someone, a choice/decision will be made.

The example you gave of many trees that we may eat of and the one exception that was deadly shows, that in God's warning of certain death, the tree of knowledge of good and evil was not presented to be considered a viable option/choice. It is also not considered an option to any person who doesn't want to die, so long as they believe they will die. The devil introduced with subtilty the suggestion that God was not being honest, and also tempted mankind in the imagination with something greatly desirable such as having wisdom like unto God. The simple point I intend to make here is that according to scripture this choice/option to believe God or believe the serpent was introduced by the serpent and not by God.

 

[leowls]

I don't believe that God ever gave mankind freedom of choice when it comes to the moral/immoral decision. I view the will that is moral, and not immoral, as a Character trait that is an attribute of God's Spirit or His Word within us from when we were created. So for example someone who is kind and caring would not be free to choose to be cruel and uncaring.

There's where you are wrong. Lucifer and his angels were all created perfect in all ways and yet they were still capable of choosing evil or good. it's their choice that led to their future ultimate doom. Since mankind is fallen we do not have free will. If our nature is wicked our will will follow suit. But free choice, yes.

 

[leowls]

Jesus did not come to condemn the world He came to save it.

We condemn ourselves when we choose to remain in sin.

That's because God dictates that there must be punishment for choosing evil. But since he allowed us that freedom why must we be punished for it?

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Lucifer and his angels were all created perfect in all ways and yet they were still capable of choosing evil or good. it's their choice that led to their future ultimate doom.

That's an enigmatic position. Why would a perfect angel make an imperfect choice?

 

[leowls]

That's an enigmatic position. Why would a perfect angel make an imperfect choice?

Because God gave them the freedom of choice. So isnt God indirectly responsible for their wrongdoing?

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Because God gave them the freedom of choice. So isnt God indirectly responsible for their wrongdoing?

God is indirectly responsible in the same way that Shakespeare was indirectly responsible for Hamlet killing Claudius. It was still Hamlet's crime, and Shakespeare was still innocent of murder.

 

[childeye 2]

There's where you are wrong. Lucifer and his angels were all created perfect in all ways and yet they were still capable of choosing evil or good.

Respectfully I don't think I'm wrong since a perfect person would never choose to do what is wrong to do. It's an issue of interpretation that should take into account the semantics. It's like saying God can sin and lie anytime He wants to, but He can never want to, so ultimately He can't sin and lie. So also when applied to the example you provided, the scripture says that Lucifer from the time he was created, was perfect in all his ways up until iniquity was found in him. The issue is therefore corruption in the creature and how did it form. I believe the lesson to be learned from Lucifer and his angels is that the creature is subject to vanity which corrupts us, and therefore the lesson cannot be that we have free choice. To me vanity is the source of corruption and wickedness that when left unchecked predisposes a person to acting out of that wickedness. I also note wickedness spreads like a disease through vanity. There's a reason why it would be uncharacteristic for the children of God to return evil for evil.

It's their choice that led to their future ultimate doom.

Of course different choices lead us down different roads with different experiences/consequences. But I notice that if I'm not sitting, I must be standing or laying down, or walking or running, etc... If I'm perfectly still, I'm not moving. Every moment so long as I am alive can be interpreted as a choice/decision being made because of what I didn't do but could have done, since that is a necessary circumstance of being alive for every living being including a paramecium.

But I'm focusing on the moral/immoral choice/decision, how we treat our fellow man. I don't question that we make choices/decisions each with their own consequences. I just don't accept the premise that God gave us a free choice as pertains to what is right and wrong as if we get to decide what is true or false. I see Truth as something we learn as pertains to knowledge and ignorance of, and I think that it would be disingenuous to portray ignorance as a form of freedom. In regards to the choice/option, obviously, stating that we choose between good and evil simply because they precede us in existence, does not address the issue of why we would ever choose to do what is self destructive.

Since mankind is fallen we do not have free will. If our nature is wicked our will will follow suit. But free choice, yes.

I don't know exactly what free choice means to you, particularly what the adjective free is relative to or why it is necessary. In other words, what exactly is an enslaved or unfree choice and are you talking about choice/option or choice/decision?

Or you might be conflating choice/option with choice/decision? That certainly is easy to do since in our minds the narrative of what is evil is always present in the knowledge of what is the good, which to me is not any different than describing the knowledge of good and evil, which God didn't want us to partake of in the first place, lest we lose our innocence and die. So when you say we do not have a free will since we have fallen, are you speaking about the will under innocence, the will in ignorance of the knowledge of good and evil? Do you see my dilemna? You would need to qualify the descriptive term "free" in the phrase "Free choice", (free from what), and clarify if you're talking about a decision or option in the noun "choice".

 

[agapelove]

That's because God dictates that there must be punishment for choosing evil. But since he allowed us that freedom why must we be punished for it?

God does not dictate that. God is the source of Life and if we turn away from life then the only possible outcome is death.

 

[Joy]

MOD HAT ON

This Thread has Moved
From The Junk Drawer
To Controversial Christian Theology

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[Tigger45]

God is life, love, truth, righteous... and mankind was made in His image. Sin is to miss the mark God intended for His people and lessens their likeness to God. So when man/mankind sin they sever there union with their life source which is God Himself. We see a very practical example of this when Adam and Eve sinned and were removed from the garden of Eden separating them from a close or direct relationship with God.

 

[Aaron112]

That's because God dictates that there must be punishment for choosing evil. But since he allowed us that freedom why must we be punished for it?

Isolated post answer here (did not read other posts in this thread)

It is not necessary that "we" be punished for choosing evil. Most people in religious groups and the world are punished, but that is not required.
"That freedom" is because everyone will suffer for his own sin(s). Free will is not removed until death or at some point God Determines before death.

If someone chooses evil, and then God Permits repentance, and Determines Properly to include them in His elect, then they won't be <eternally> punished for their choosing evil.
Instead, in their place so to speak, paying the penalty , the cost of sin (death),
the Messiah Suffered and Died. i.e. even though they "choose" evil... and Jesus knew they would.

 

[Dan Perez]

Since God gave men freedom in choice why should he punish them when they choose to do wrong and to condemn them to hell for all eternity. It's not like men asked God for it.

Why read Romans 2:1-29 and see !!

dan p