Free 2 years of community college

[Loudmouth]

It all goes back to envy and covetousness

Indeed it is. People seem to be envious that someone they consider undeserving is getting what they have. The envy and covetousness on the right is quite thick.

 

[Loudmouth]

The federal government is stepping in because the states have dropped the ball. In times past, you could get a good college education at a very good price. States have cut back spending on education to the point that it isn't affordable anymore. If the states would do their job, Obama wouldn't have to be doing this.

 

[keith99]

I haven't read the other posts in this thread yet, but I predict that the criticism will be something along the lines of "I don't want to pay for someone else's benefit"

I will gladly pay to be surrounded by fewer idiots - funding education benefits EVERYONE. Funding education is an investment in our future, and it's an investment with a high return. It gives the poor the education they need to climb out of poverty.

Community college classes are cheap - it's not like Obama is promising 4 years at public universities or private universities. I paid out of pocket for my community college classes - I didn't need to take any loans for them. The only people that struggle to pay for community college are the very poor.

I've been at a community college, a public state university, and a private university. My experience of community college was that it mostly served a few purposes:

• Cheap general education to transfer to a more expensive university. (This is how I used it to reduce the cost of my education)
• An associates degree or certificate for training in a specialized trade or craft sufficient to get a better paying skilled job than "Sandwich Artist". (This is how the poor use community college to expand their job prospects without incurring the crippling debt of a 4 year university)
• An abusable loophole to put college loans into deferment. (Rarely used since the loophole isn't obvious. Mostly used by people with terminal degrees and large debts. Ineffective at lower debt levels)

As for "those that are willing to work for it" - sounds like there will be accountability. If a student's performance isn't good enough (i.e. they fail half their classes their first semester), then they probably lose the free funding.

Pretty much in agreement with my thoughts.

I'd add one more reason to try a Community College. To get a cheap taste of something new. I went to a local Community College to take some accounting classes before applying to the Graduate School of Management at UCLA.

My big concern is the accountability and how the '2 years' part works out. When I took the first accounting class it was in a bungalow type classroom, little stairway of about 4 steps leading up to the area in front of each of the doors. There were permanent bungalows so the 'railing' on the platform was more like a wall. That is important because the first day of class every seat was full, people lined the walls and spilled out onto the top of the stairs, standing and sitting on the wall. There were far more people wanting in that could be accommodated.

The class grades were 30% for each of 3 tests (the final was just the last of the 3) and 10% on homework. Rather than have to deal with excuses the lowest homework was thrown out. The instructor allowed a lot of people on the wait list. So at first there were more bodies than seats.

By the time the second homework assignment was returned everyone remaining had a seat. By the time the first test was returned no one was sitting next to anyone, e.g. half the seats were empty.

Here is problem number 1, that is still before the drop date. Drop the class and it does not hurt your GPA. People doing that is already a problem. Poorly thought out this could make it worse. Well thought out it could improve things.

Second issue is what does '2 years' mean? If just 2 chronological years it make this more a subsidy for the middle class and generally not the best and brightest of the middle class. Only those who can afford to not work could take full advantage of this. The real poor would get 1/4-1/2 the benefit of the better off because they would have the time constraints of a their regular job(s).

So I like the idea, I'm concerned with the implementation.

 

[South Bound]

The federal government is stepping in because the states have dropped the ball. In times past, you could get a good college education at a very good price. States have cut back spending on education to the point that it isn't affordable anymore. If the states would do their job, Obama wouldn't have to be doing this.

But how did taking money from taxpayers to give to college students become the state's job?

Don't most states already offer reduced or free tuition to in-state students?

 

[Loudmouth]

But how did taking money from taxpayers to give to college students become the state's job?

For the same reason that it is done for elementary and secondary education. By keeping education costs affordable for everyone you allow equal opportunities for all economic classes.

Don't most states already offer reduced or free tuition to in-state students?

Here are tuition and boarding costs from 1974 to present in 2014 dollars (i.e. adjusted for inflation):

Tuition and Fees and Room and Board over Time, 1974-75 to 2014-15, Selected Years - Trends in Higher Education - The College Board

As you can see, the cost of an in-state public university education has quadrupled over the last 40 years.

 

[TLK Valentine]

But how did taking money from taxpayers to give to college students become the state's job?

The same way giving it to elementary and high-school students became their job.

Don't most states already offer reduced or free tuition to in-state students?

Free? good one....

There are few countries which offer free or reduced tuition; clearly the US isn't one of them.

 

[keith99]

For the same reason that it is done for elementary and secondary education. By keeping education costs affordable for everyone you allow equal opportunities for all economic classes.



Here are tuition and boarding costs from 1974 to present in 2014 dollars (i.e. adjusted for inflation):

Tuition and Fees and Room and Board over Time, 1974-75 to 2014-15, Selected Years - Trends in Higher Education - The College Board

As you can see, the cost of an in-state public university education has quadrupled over the last 40 years.

Quadrupled, wow.

My second car was a Mercury Maurader x-100. 429, 4 barrel carb 11 to 1 compression ratio. A true muscle car. Price $3000. One cannot get a glorified go cart for $12,000, which is what a mere quadrupling would mean.

 

[South Bound]

For the same reason that it is done for elementary and secondary education. By keeping education costs affordable for everyone you allow equal opportunities for all economic classes.

By that logic, shouldn't it then be mandatory?

As you can see, the cost of an in-state public university education has quadrupled over the last 40 years.

Isn't that all the more reason to get the government out of it and let the market lower tuition costs?

 

[Loudmouth]

By that logic, shouldn't it then be mandatory?

By what logic? No one is arguing that a basic education requires college courses.

Isn't that all the more reason to get the government out of it and let the market lower tuition costs?

Tuition at private schools has outpaced inflation as well.

 

[Loudmouth]

Quadrupled, wow.

My second car was a Mercury Maurader x-100. 429, 4 barrel carb 11 to 1 compression ratio. A true muscle car. Price $3000. One cannot get a glorified go cart for $12,000, which is what a mere quadrupling would mean.

You would have to adjust that 3k to current dollars. Assuming you had a '69 . . .

Inflation calculator:
CPI Inflation Calculator

3k in 1969 is about 19k now.

The costs of tuition in the previous post was already adjusted for inflation.

 

[super animator]

My main criticism of this, is that it's labeled as "free" when it really not, someone need to pay the teachers bills.

 

[Loudmouth]

My main criticism of this, is that it's labeled as "free" when it really not, someone need to pay the teachers bills.

I don't see the problem with using that terminology. The program will allow students to attend community college free of charge. I don't see how that can be misinterpretted as meaning college employees are unpaid volunteers.

 

[Norah63]

So now some of us dont have a 'basic education' because we didn't go to college, how sad.
And all these years we have got along and even manage to support a government that can't ever manage their budget.

 

[Loudmouth]

So now some of us dont have a 'basic education' because we didn't go to college, how sad.

I don't see it that way. 2 years of community college is focused more on vocational training. Instead of just a high school diploma, a 20 year old kid can have a diploma AND be a trained welder or truck driver. This program is about reducing the price of entry into these trades.

And all these years we have got along and even manage to support a government that can't ever manage their budget.

Are you against the idea of improving the economic opportunities for young Americans?

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

The local technical school paid for at the county/citylevel pretty much does this. it is more of a technical school though, and kids go through it while still in high school. Which means they graduate fully certified for their dream job. I can foresee Obama's ideals, while ambitious and altruistic, will mess up the system we already created here. I don't agree with it in that regard.

 

[super animator]

As for "those that are willing to work for it" - sounds like there will be accountability. If a student's performance isn't good enough (i.e. they fail half their classes their first semester), then they probably lose the free funding.

They should measure the performance in high-school as well, and demand better performance from them.
We have this similar program that Obama is referring to here at Missouri with the A++ program.

 

[Loudmouth]

The local technical school paid for at the county/citylevel pretty much does this. it is more of a technical school though, and kids go through it while still in high school. Which means they graduate fully certified for their dream job. I can foresee Obama's ideals, while ambitious and altruistic, will mess up the system we already created here. I don't agree with it in that regard.

What you describe is what we need more of, and what this plan is at least trying to supplement. Quite frankly, a 4 year degree is not for everyone, but they are made to think it is. There needs to be a middle ground where we people can learn tradeskills without needing to pay for a 4 year degree.

People who complain about welfare dragging the country down should actually be supporting this program. The amount that the program would pay out for a 2 year degree, or a supplemented high school education, is chump change compared to long term welfare payments. Lack of access to education, in part, keeps families impoverished. Having the ability to work as an electrician with a good salary breaks the cycle of poverty begetting poverty.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

What you describe is what we need more of, and what this plan is at least trying to supplement. Quite frankly, a 4 year degree is not for everyone, but they are made to think it is. There needs to be a middle ground where we people can learn tradeskills without needing to pay for a 4 year degree.

People who complain about welfare dragging the country down should actually be supporting this program. The amount that the program would pay out for a 2 year degree, or a supplemented high school education, is chump change compared to long term welfare payments. Lack of access to education, in part, keeps families impoverished. Having the ability to work as an electrician with a good salary breaks the cycle of poverty begetting poverty.

You have one chance to go through. it it is either get the skills to run the business, or be the guy who mops the floor for the place. An all for nothing thing, not everyone makes it. They created it after both steel mills crumbled. They were our only two main manufacturing places and when they fell a high school diplomas became as about as useful as GED around here for good paying jobs.

 

[Farmer4Christ]

I think government-funded education is a great investment in the people. With less debt to worry about and more education there will more money being pumped into the economy and a higher standard of living. Now if this can be extended into universities it would be a great step to correcting the growing problem of student debt and inequality. Of course it would be even better to see all universities publicly owned, the legacy system being abolished, and entry to schools being based on high test scores instead of worrying about whether or not you can afford it.

 

[super animator]

I think government-funded education is a great investment in the people. With less debt to worry about and more education there will more money being pumped into the economy and a higher standard of living. Now if this can be extended into universities it would be a great step to correcting the growing problem of student debt and inequality. Of course it would be even better to see all universities publicly owned, the legacy system being abolished, and entry to schools being based on high test scores instead of worrying about whether or not you can afford it.

I for one, do not want that.