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Frantic damage control in Adventism

NightEternal

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Lately it seems the SDA church has steamed ahead full throttle in trying to stem the tide of defections and apostasies. Never before have I seen the church go into damage control mode so quickly and collectively marshall her forces in an attempt to clot the steady flow of membership hemmorraging. They try to do everything possible to keep people in, and more and more of them just keep heading out the back door. For every convert they win, Dale Ratzlaff, Mark Martin, Sydney Cleveland and the Colleen Tinker drag three more out.

Just lately we have had Bob Pickle's book A Response To The Video: Seventh-day Adventism-The Spirit Behind The Church, Graeme Bradford's books More Than A Prophet, People Are Human, Prophets Are Human, Don McMahon's book Acquired Or Inspired, Herbert Douglass's book They Were There, Leonard Brand's book The Prophet And Her Critics, the Ellen White Summit seminars complete with George Knight and Jon Paulien pleading with the church for a more realistic understanding of Ellen White and her ministry, Doug Batchelor's book Advindication, Alden Thompson's book Escape From The Flames, Clifford Goldstein's attempts at IJ/1844/Heavenly Sanctuary apologetics in a recent Sabbath School Quarterly and his book Graffiti In The Holy of Holies as well as his article in the Review Blood In The Holy Of Holies.

Amazing Facts recently had the Here We Stand seminars, reaffirming the pillars in the face of intense attack from the opposition.

And now, just recently released, is Skip MacCarty's book In Granite Or Ingrained? dealing with the question of the two covenants.

GYC continues to put on yearly meetings with the intention of retaining the youth who have chosen to stay with the ship, and the EGW Estate desperately targets the children with a magazine with the purpose of solely promoting and selling EGW to the next generation in the church.

It's a full-on campaign to keep and retain the sheep that are left and somehow win back the ones that have already bailed.

On the one hand, you have to admire them for at least acknowledging there are serious issues that need to be dealt with. They are attempting to respond to the criticisms. But really, what choice do they have now with the advent of the internet and a much more savvy, aware membership in the pews? They have been pushed into a corner far enough to the point now where minimizing or denial is no longer an adequate or acceptable response, so this is the only option left in the face of individuals leaving left and right. Many in the church see the problems for what they are and are trying to meet them head-on. This is a good thing. :thumbsup:

On the other hand, I can't help but wonder how many fingers are going to be available to desperately plug the holes in the dam of Adventism until the water of dissent brings the whole thing crashing down around them. The cracks are already showing, the wall is groaning under the weight and pressure of the tide waters and it is becoming too much to keep up with the problem areas. Heaven knows that church apologetics (especially Ellen White apologetics) is a line of work even some Adventist Pastors and scholars are not at all keen on undertaking for obvious reasons. Many SDA ministers would rather just preach Christ and Him crucified, and leave the rest of the baggage for someone else to deal with. So it is left to a few (valiant? brave? incredibly stupid?) souls to plunge into the lions den of criticism and charge into battle raising the tattered Adventist flag high.

President Jan Paulsen recently affirmed all of the church's historic stands on the fundamentals. I wonder if he realizes just how much manpower, effort and energy is being expended into sustaining and maintaining this bold proclamation as a reality?

Even Fritz Guy, a prominent Adventist scholar and professor, shakes his head sadly at the display. He went on record as stating that the 1800 Adventist paradigm will not be sustainable much longer in the 21st century. :sigh:

It is an interesting human drama, worthy of a Hollywood production, don't you think?

2008 should be an interesting year...
 

NightEternal

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Well, now that we got that ray of sunshine out of the way, anyone else? :doh:

I am sure Tall, Sophia, Ice, Adventtruth, Eila and Free will be thrilled to know you think they took 'the easy way out'.

I am sure they would beg to differ at just how 'easy' it was.

Unbelievable.
 
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tall73

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For every convert they win, Dale Ratzlaff, Mark Martin, Sydney Cleveland and the Colleen Tinker drag three more out.

It appears the actual percentage is between 25-45 percent, not three hundred percent. The figure has varied in recent years. Not all of these are for doctrinal reasons.

And yes, they are trying to stem the tide.

Some of this has been posted around before in the Adventist section. But here is a key phrase from the 2005 report at the GC:

The bottom line for this quinquennium is that for every 100 accessions, more than 35 others decided to leave," he told delegates. "That total is considerably more than the 24 subtracted for every 100 added as reported at our last session" in 2000.

http://news.adventist.org/data/2005/1120249432/index.html.en

Here are some figures from the 2007 Annual Council Secretary Report:

For the past five years we have reported to the Executive Committee the
very low retention rate of our membership. I am happy to report that there has
been a remarkable change in this area. While we were reporting a ratio of
accessions to losses around 45.03%, our records this year show a healthy figure
of 24.21%. This means, for every one hundred members added through baptism
and profession of faith, 24 left the church. I must hasten to indicate that those
who leave are not only the newly-baptized members.


http://news.adventist.org/specials/2...rys-report.pdf

Apparently the rate got worse after the 2005 GC, reaching about 45 percent. So far this year it is around 25 percent. However, not all of the data is in yet from what I could gather.

Here is a measure to try to stem the tide:

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/other_documents/conserving-gains.html

And as Free indicated in another thread, the data is not really complete either. Some leave but do not have their name removed.
 
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JonMiller

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I only attended church once in December (which is less than normal for me), and that was the Blandensberg one. They were going to have a series (going all year) on the 28 fundamentals next year.

I don't know if there has been some general discussion about this?

JM
 
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tall73

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EGW Estate desperately targets the children with a magazine with the purpose of solely promoting and selling EGW to the next generation in the church.



http://www.whiteestate.org/vez/vez.html

And don't forget the resource for k-12 teachers:

http://www.whiteestate.org/godsmessenger.html


And for adults we have the "Connecting With Jesus" program, putting some 20 million EGW books into member hands.

http://www.connectingwithjesus.org/

Connecting with Jesus is a worldwide project sponsored by the General Conference and the Ellen G. White Estate.
 
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NightEternal

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This just goes to show that these folks don't know kids. Here is what they SHOULD do.

Free EGW Bobblehead when mom buys 10 cases of vegelinks at Campmeeting!


:doh: ^_^

Oh MAN. I laughed so hard at this, my stomach hurts! LOL.

That is just absolutely hilarious!
 
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Mankin

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This just goes to show that these folks don't know kids. Here is what they SHOULD do.

Free EGW Bobblehead when mom buys 10 cases of vegelinks at Campmeeting!


LOL But mom I would rather have a Mario bobblehead! lol.
 
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honorthesabbath

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People leave churches all the time. I walked out of the Pentecostal church because of their hypocrisy. The even claimed to preach the gospel, but they didn't. Most people leave their church because they have back-slid. Their unconverted hearts drew them back into the world.

Perhaps God is 'thoroughly purging His floor' and shaking out those who seek to do harm to this movement. I'm not surprised at all that people leave the SDA church. It's a very narrow walk and all are not able to walk it.


Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

As EGW stated, (I'm paraphrasing), "many unconverted ppl are coming into the church". She also said it would look like the church would fall--but guess what? What God hath wrought, will be performed. The church is being purified for the great persecution ahead. No one with a divided heart will make it thru this awesome testing time.
 
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moicherie

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In our zeal to think that people who leave the church are totally wrong and people who stay are totally right we run the risk of arrogance and not reforming when we should because we are too pompous thinking that the shaking is taking place for those who decided to leave and considereing all leavers as backsliders. The leaders in Jesus day believed they were ' all right Jack' as well..........
 
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Avonia

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Most people leave their church because they have back-slid. Their unconverted hearts drew them back into the world.

That may be true of your community, but it's not true for my current community and the dozens of SDA communities I've participated in.

Here's what I've seen:

They leave because they grow out of their church. The church does not provide enough opportunities for spiritual growth. Often spiritual practice is either not understood, or people are afraid of it.

They leave because there are too many religionists and not enough followers of Jesus.

They leave because it's too static.

They leave because they wish to be in a community interested in bettering the world we live in instead of focusing so much on the end of time.

They leave because of the way the church spends its money.

They leave because some communities are anti-intellectual.

They leave because they find more meaning in other places.

They leave because they find Jesus more present in other churches.


Honor, I worry that you do yourself and others a disservice when you don't recognize that many people begin to develop most fully in Christ WHEN they leave the SDA church.

Blessings to you for the New Year Honor!
 
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freeindeed2

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That may be true of your community, but it's not true for my current community and the dozens of SDA communities I've participated in.

Here's what I've seen:

They leave because they grow out of their church. The church does not provide enough opportunities for spiritual growth. Often spiritual practice is either not understood, or people are afraid of it.

They leave because there are too many religionists and not enough followers of Jesus.

They leave because it's too static.

They leave because they wish to be in a community interested in bettering the world we live in instead of focusing so much on the end of time.

They leave because of the way the church spends it's money.

They leave because some communities are anti-intellectual.

They leave because they find more meaning in other places.

They leave because they find Jesus more present in other churches.


Honor, I worry that you do yourself and others a disservice when you don't recognize that many people begin to develop most fully in Christ WHEN they leave the SDA church.

Blessings to you for the New Year Honor!
So true!
 
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Adventist Dissident

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This just goes to show that these folks don't know kids. Here is what they SHOULD do.

Free EGW Bobblehead when mom buys 10 cases of vegelinks at Campmeeting!

tall this is so funny, you are halarious
 
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honorthesabbath

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That may be true of your community, but it's not true for my current community and the dozens of SDA communities I've participated in.

Here's what I've seen:

They leave because they grow out of their church. The church does not provide enough opportunities for spiritual growth. Often spiritual practice is either not understood, or people are afraid of it.
What do you mean ‘grow out of their church? What do you mean by ‘spiritual practice”? Afraid of what?

They leave because there are too many religionists and not enough followers of Jesus.
This holds true in ALL denominations. As EGW said-too many unconverted ppl in the church.

They leave because it's too static.
Meaning?

They leave because they wish to be in a community interested in bettering the world we live in instead of focusing so much on the end of time.
Again, there are many denominations that fit this bill. The Pentecostal church I was involved in did absolutely NOTHING for the community or it's members. My church is VERY community oriented. As is our Pathfinder group.

They leave because of the way the church spends its money.
On the Conference level or local?

They leave because some communities are anti-intellectual.
Please explain

They leave because they find more meaning in other places.
Meaning about what? Or for what? Or WHAT?

They leave because they find Jesus more present in other churches
In what manifestation? I've been SDA for over 30 yrs, I left a church that claimed Jesus, but their hearts where far from Him. But I have not found that to be true in my local SDA church. Jesus LIVES within them. I KNOW--I have seen Him there.


Honor, I worry that you do yourself and others a disservice when you don't recognize that many people begin to develop most fully in Christ WHEN they leave the SDA church.

I think this is a very subjective statement. What do you mean 'develop most fully in Christ when they leave"?

Of the people that I have personally witnessed that have left the church, they either become involved with the charismatic movement or leave God altogether. I cannot speak for those whom I have not personally witnessed, only those I have.

And many blessings in this New Year to you as well!
 
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honorthesabbath

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Adventtruth

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People leave churches all the time. I walked out of the Pentecostal church because of their hypocrisy. The even claimed to preach the gospel, but they didn't. Most people leave their church because they have back-slid. Their unconverted hearts drew them back into the world.

Perhaps God is 'thoroughly purging His floor' and shaking out those who seek to do harm to this movement. I'm not surprised at all that people leave the SDA church. It's a very narrow walk and all are not able to walk it.

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

As EGW stated, (I'm paraphrasing), "many unconverted ppl are coming into the church". She also said it would look like the church would fall--but guess what? What God hath wrought, will be performed. The church is being purified for the great persecution ahead. No one with a divided heart will make it thru this awesome testing time.

And what is the test?


AT
 
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freeindeed2

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People leave churches all the time. I walked out of the Pentecostal church because of their hypocrisy. The even claimed to preach the gospel, but they didn't. Most people leave their church because they have back-slid. Their unconverted hearts drew them back into the world.

Perhaps God is 'thoroughly purging His floor' and shaking out those who seek to do harm to this movement. I'm not surprised at all that people leave the SDA church. It's a very narrow walk and all are not able to walk it.

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

As EGW stated, (I'm paraphrasing), "many unconverted ppl are coming into the church". She also said it would look like the church would fall--but guess what? What God hath wrought, will be performed. The church is being purified for the great persecution ahead. No one with a divided heart will make it thru this awesome testing time.
Jesus IS the narrow way. It's not an organization.
 
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