Francis Collins - is he a Christian?

[Tzaousios]

What, about Original Sin?

I'm not sure there is such a thing. It's immoral to punish humans for the mistakes of their forefathers. I don't believe God is immoral, so I think Original Sin is a highly unlikely thing.

That seems to conflate Original Sin (whatever you think it might be) with a penal consequence for Adam's guilt. Are you sure you know what Augustine thought about such matters? What about what Paul thought?

 

[Emil Rez52]

That seems to conflate Original Sin (whatever you think it might be) with a penal consequence for Adam's guilt. Are you sure you know what Augustine thought about such matters? What about what Paul thought?

So we're punished for something we don't have? That makes even less sense.

Augustine was the harbringer of Original Sin. Even secular scholars point that out.

My thoughts are not in line with what Paul and Augustine taught. Remember, I am not a "Christian." I don't believe infinite punishment for finite sins, which we have no control over to begin with due to Original Sin, is in any context a just or fair arrangement. Even less sensical, when you factor in an all-knowing God who clearly could have set things up in another fashion, but simply, didn't.

 

[Tzaousios]

So we're punished for something we don't have? That makes even less sense.

Augustine was the harbringer of Original Sin. Even secular scholars point that out.

My thoughts are not in line with what Paul and Augustine taught. Remember, I am not a "Christian." I don't believe infinite punishment for finite sins, which we have no control over to begin with due to Original Sin, is in any context a just or fair arrangement. Even less sensical, when you factor in an all-knowing God who clearly could have set things up in another fashion, but simply, didn't.

Oh, so you were conflating Original Sin and the penal consequence of guilt. Why did you do that, because you do not know the difference or to try to shove it past in the hopes of scoring rhetorical points?

 

[Emil Rez52]

Oh, so you were conflating Original Sin and the penal consequence of guilt. Why did you do that, because you do not know the difference or to try to shove it past in the hopes of scoring rhetorical points?

I'm not a theologian. My area of expertise has trained me remarkably well to see through bulls*** but my theological training is only a personal interest (if you can even call it that). I just am a curious fellow by nature. So if my wording doesn't meet your criteria, you'll have to get over that.

 

[Tzaousios]

I'm not a theologian. My area of expertise has trained me remarkably well to see through bulls*** but my theological training is only a personal interest (if you can even call it that). I just am a curious fellow by nature. So if my wording doesn't meet your criteria, you'll have to get over that.

Well, if you plead ignorance, are you going to withdraw the statement that conflates the two things? If not, it will become quite apparent that you were attempting to score some rhetorical points without anyone noticing.

 

[Emil Rez52]

I'm sure that from Paul's point of view, Adam may have been a real person. Like any of the other Apostles, including Peter, Paul wasn't fully informed on EVERYTHING.

We have the representational story of beginnings that God wanted us to have; one that could still be useful to 21st century Americans, and definitely accessible to ancient Jews and Holy Gentiles.

The imputation of sin through Adam is that all of mankind lost access to the tree of life in the Garden of Eden; not that each person is born with a reprobate nature--we still have the image of God, but we are all in mortal straits (I'm alluding to Romans 5:14).

(Goodnight--I'll check tomorrow)

That is a very liberal interpretation, theologically speaking. I imagine many Christians would be willing and ready to crucify you for such a statement.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

That is a very liberal interpretation, theologically speaking. I imagine many Christians would be willing and ready to crucify you for such a statement.

That's fine with me...they can try. I'm not overly concerned with friendships that can only survive because I have to agree completely with what that other person perceives or interprets. Besides, it might turn out that they are wrong; and I don't have a problem with being wrong--its a learning experience.

So, yes, perhaps I'm liberal cosmologically, but I'm not so liberal on the rest of theology. I'm more of a moderate with neo-orthodox and/or existential infusions.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Is Francis Collins a Christian?

Yes.

That was easy enough.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ebia]

Is Francis Collins a Christian? Yes. That was easy enough. -CryptoLutheran

it seems so.

 

[Emil Rez52]

Is Francis Collins a Christian?

Yes.

That was easy enough.

-CryptoLutheran

Then why do many Christians say he is not? Who is right?

 

[ebia]

Then why do many Christians say he is not?

Globally they would be a minority. They are just a rather loud minority.

Who is right?

I am, of course.

 

[Emil Rez52]

Globally they would be a minority. They are just a rather loud minority.


I am, of course.

30% of Christians is over 700 million people, hardly a small number, wouldn't you say?

They would say the same, about them being right. lol

 

[ebia]

30% of Christians is over 700 million people, hardly a small number, wouldn't you say? They would say the same, about them being right. lol

Where did you get 30% from?

 

[Emil Rez52]

Where did you get 30% from?

I read it somewhere, maybe Barna or somewhere else.

Roughly 30% of Christianity is evangelical, and those are the ones saying that.

 

[ebia]

I read it somewhere, maybe Barna or somewhere else. Roughly 30% of Christianity is evangelical, and those are the ones saying that.

Not all American evangelicals are saying that at all.

 

[Emil Rez52]

Not all American evangelicals are saying that at all.

I didn't say it was only American evangelicals.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I didn't say it was only American evangelicals.

Not all Evangelicals are saying that.

Pulling statistics from thin air, or manipulating them, doesn't an argument make.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Sayre]

Is Francis Collins a Christian?

Yes.

That was easy enough.

-CryptoLutheran

Right.

The OP is trying (and failing) to cause division in the flock

 

[Emil Rez52]

Right.

The OP is trying (and failing) to cause division in the flock

What a fool.

Quoting what other Christians say is doing no such thing.

 

[Emil Rez52]

Not all Evangelicals are saying that.

Pulling statistics from thin air, or manipulating them, doesn't an argument make.

-CryptoLutheran

Just most of them do, right.