Fr. Martin

[concretecamper]

Fr. James Martin

Gospel: Jesus is challenged by the Canaanite woman to see that his ministry extends to all. He changes his mind, learning from a wise woman.


God changed His mind? What an idiot this Fr. Martin. This goes to show that anything he says should be thrown in the trash.

 

[Colin]

Jesus was also a human person .

Did he not change his mind at the wedding in Cana ?

 

[Colin]

Fr. James Martin

Gospel: Jesus is challenged by the Canaanite woman to see that his ministry extends to all. He changes his mind, learning from a wise woman.


God changed His mind? What an idiot this Fr. Martin. This goes to show that anything he says should be thrown in the trash.

I am pleased that Father Martin does not address people in an insulting way .

And God on numerous occasions did change His mind .

A few instances......

"So the LORD changed his mind about the terrible disaster he had threatened to bring on his people." (Ex 32:14 ) .

"But did King Hezekiah and the people kill him for saying this? No, they turned from their sins and worshiped the LORD. They begged him for mercy. Then the LORD changed his mind about the terrible disaster he had pronounced against them. So we are about to do ourselves great harm."" (Jer 26:19) .

"The LORD changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD . " (Amos 7:3) .

"When God saw what they had done and how they had put a stop to their evil ways, he changed his mind and did not carry out the destruction he had threatened." (Jonah 3:10).

"But if you stop your sinning and begin to obey the LORD your God, he will change his mind about this disaster that he has announced against you." (Jer 26:13) .

"But as the angel was preparing to destroy Jerusalem, the LORD changed his mind and said to the death angel, "Stop! That is enough!. " (2 Sam 24:16) .

 

[concretecamper]

Jesus was also a human person .

Did he not change his mind at the wedding in Cana ?

No.

I have read many commentaries on the Wedding Feast at Cana and have never come across 1 that say Christ changed His mind.

 

[concretecamper]

I am pleased that Father Martin does not address people in an insulting way .

And God on numerous occasions did change His mind .

A few instances......

"So the LORD changed his mind about the terrible disaster he had threatened to bring on his people." (Ex 32:14 ) .

"But did King Hezekiah and the people kill him for saying this? No, they turned from their sins and worshiped the LORD. They begged him for mercy. Then the LORD changed his mind about the terrible disaster he had pronounced against them. So we are about to do ourselves great harm."" (Jer 26:19) .

"The LORD changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD . " (Amos 7:3) .

"When God saw what they had done and how they had put a stop to their evil ways, he changed his mind and did not carry out the destruction he had threatened." (Jonah 3:10).

"But if you stop your sinning and begin to obey the LORD your God, he will change his mind about this disaster that he has announced against you." (Jer 26:13) .

"But as the angel was preparing to destroy Jerusalem, the LORD changed his mind and said to the death angel, "Stop! That is enough!. " (2 Sam 24:16) .

Dogmas of the Church
-God is absolutely immutable
-God knows all real things in the past, the present and the future
-By the knowledge of vision, God also foresees the future free acts of rational creatures with infallible certainty

Now, how do we reconcile your bible quotes and these Dogmas. Well, first I would get a different translation of the Bible because if it uses the word "change" it can certainly cause confusion. Secondly, the passages you reference all pertain to God not doing something because of repentance and/or intercession by someone(s). It does not mean that God, once learning something new, changes His mind.

Fr. Martin's quote specifically says God "learned" from the woman...pure heresy. So if you find my abhorrence towards him insulting...so be it.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

I don't like Fr. Martin. But there are a few instances where Jesus did indeed change his mind. So to hang your hat on that in order to discredit Martin won't work.

 

[concretecamper]

I don't like Fr. Martin. But there are a few instances where Jesus did indeed change his mind. So to hang your hat on that in order to discredit Martin won't work.

Examples please.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

Examples please.

Well off the top of my head, the wedding at Cana, and this last Sunday's Gospel. And I'm sure you're going to argue, but I've seen too many bible footnotes and commentaries, and been through too many bible study discussions to think those examples are anything but Jesus changing His mind. He is fully God and fully man. Changing His mind is just part of being a man. Like being hungry or tired. So feel free to dispute, but you would be wrong.

 

[Colin]

No.

I have read many commentaries on the Wedding Feast at Cana and have never come across 1 that say Christ changed His mind.

It's irrelevant how many commentaries you have read .

I read John's Gospel , and it is clear that Jesus did change his mind at the wedding in Cana .

 

[Colin]

Dogmas of the Church
-God is absolutely immutable
-God knows all real things in the past, the present and the future
-By the knowledge of vision, God also foresees the future free acts of rational creatures with infallible certainty

Now, how do we reconcile your bible quotes and these Dogmas. Well, first I would get a different translation of the Bible because if it uses the word "change" it can certainly cause confusion. Secondly, the passages you reference all pertain to God not doing something because of repentance and/or intercession by someone(s). It does not mean that God, once learning something new, changes His mind.

Fr. Martin's quote specifically says God "learned" from the woman...pure heresy. So if you find my abhorrence towards him insulting...so be it.

You are totally confusing what Church dogmas say about God and what they say about the humanity of Jesus .

Those dogmas you refer to are about the attributes of God , not about the attributes of Jesus' humanity , Jesus who is like us in ALL things but sin .

As for reconciling God's Word with these dogmas , well you will have to ask God about that .

By the way , would you please give a source for Father Martin's alleged words ?

 

[tadoflamb]

I read John's Gospel , and it is clear that Jesus did change his mind at the wedding in Cana .

It seems to me Abraham managed to change God's mind about destroying Sodom as well.

 

[concretecamper]

Well off the top of my head, the wedding at Cana, and this last Sunday's Gospel. And I'm sure you're going to argue, but I've seen too many bible footnotes and commentaries, and been through too many bible study discussions to think those examples are anything but Jesus changing His mind. He is fully God and fully man. Changing His mind is just part of being a man. Like being hungry or tired. So feel free to dispute, but you would be wrong.

What we have to realize is that Jesus changing His mind about whether to have His fish with or without lemon, changing His mind about when He is going to sleep is not what we are talking about. What the topic is about is Jesus changing the scope of His ministry because of what He learned from the woman.

If you want to stick with the hungry and tired route...I can't argue against that Jesus may have changed His mind about the lemon

 

[tadoflamb]

I was a little puzzled by the OP at first. What he is referring to is a tweet by Fr. Martin form August 3rd, 2016. I'd give a link to it, but the first comment is obscene.

At any rate, what Fr. Martin is talking about the hypostatic union and how Christ in His humanity came to understand His divinity. The same subject was touched upon by one of my favorite homilists when we heard the verse in question proclaimed a couple of weeks ago.

 

[concretecamper]

You are totally confusing what Church dogmas say about God and what they say about the humanity of Jesus .

Those dogmas you refer to are about the attributes of God , not about the attributes of Jesus' humanity , Jesus who is like us in ALL things but sin .
.

So you are saying God doesn't Change His but Jesus does

It seems to me Abraham managed to change God's mind about destroying Sodom as well.

yet you are saying here God does change His mind.

 

[Colin]

What the topic is about is Jesus changing the scope of His ministry because of what He learned from the woman.

The scope of Jesus' ministry is largely his interactivity with the Father , the Holy Spirit and the people he encountered in life .

 

[Colin]

So you are saying God doesn't Change His but Jesus does

The Word of God shows both God in the OT and Jesus in the NT changing minds .

 

[Tallguy88]

It seems to me Abraham managed to change God's mind about destroying Sodom as well.

But God did destroy Sodom because even though Abraham convinced him to lower his standard, they couldn't even meet that low standard. So I'm not sure that's the best example in this case.

 

[concretecamper]

I am truly saddened by the lack of understanding of the Hypostatic Union. It seems Fr Martin is first in line with this misunderstanding. He should keep his mouth shut rather than diminish Christ for the sake of adoring fans.

 

[tadoflamb]

But God did destroy Sodom because even though Abraham convinced him to lower his standard, they couldn't even meet that low standard. So I'm not sure that's the best example in this case.

But, Abraham did convince God to change his mind.

 

[Decanus]

I think calling Fr Martin an idiot is quite uncharitable and in all honestly, very inaccurate. He's a smart man, and I applaud much of what he is doing.

As has been stated before, God can and has changed his mind. We the creation do not fully understand God, but what we do understand is that God has no master and can do as he pleases.

Let us not forget that just as Jesus is fully divine, he is also fully human and shared in that human experience and all that came with it: suffering, hardship, friendship and indeed learning.

When we assert that God is 100% unchanging....are we not, in a way, saying to God that he is not allowed to change his mind? Who are we to say that? Since when does the creation dictate to the creator?