Founders of Freemasonry?

[Simpleman25]

I often think that myself. It's not as though the commandment is "Thou shalt not bear false witness unless you heard it from someone else."

Or if you read it on the interweb.

 

[Skip Sampson]

Ellwood3:
Very thoughtful posts. Nice work. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Simpleman25]

Ellwood3:
Very thoughtful posts. Nice work. Cordially, Skip.[/QUOTE


Only you would think so.

 

[Albion]

From Manly Palmer Hall:

“When the Mason learns that the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mystery of his Craft. The seething energies of Lucifer

Even if you had not misunderstand what Lucifer refers to there--and it's not Satan--your complaint is with Manley Hall, not Masonry.

It's not true that Masonry has any interest in Lucifer, Satan, or the Devil or that what Manly P. Hall said represents anything but his personal interpretation of things. Masonry asks members to develop their own values, so no one, including Hall, is speaking for the values of Masons or Masonry.

There are far worse people who belong to the clubs or churches all of you belong to, but we are too fairminded to accuse you of believing whatever they say, just because of that. I'd recommend that kind of fair-mindedness and Christian ethics to you, too. You'll feel better if you take it up.

 

[circuitrider]

Even if you had not misunderstand what Lucifer refers to there--and it's not Satan--your complaint is with Manley Hall, not Masonry.

It is also my understanding that Manley Hall was not yet a Mason when he wrote much of what he wrote. He wouldn't be the first mixed up non-Mason I ever heard of.

 

[Simpleman25]

It is also my understanding that Manley Hall was not yet a Mason when he wrote much of what he wrote. He wouldn't be the first mixed up non-Mason I ever heard of.

That is true, he was not a mason when he wrote the majority of his stuff. Then again the truth never interfered with the anti mason movement.

 

[Ellwood3]

And the usual falsehoods about Pike and Hall are restated ad nauseum. It doesn't matter how old the Taxil Hoax is or how old the false material related to Pike and "Lucifer" are, people still keep using these two old long disproved accusations.

It is a shame that "Thou shalt not bear false witness..." is not more widely followed among Christians.

Hello Circuitrider,

The Taxil Hoax deals with Albert Pike. It has nothing to do with the quote I gave from Manly Palmer Hall.


Taxil hoax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Ellwood3]

Even if you had not misunderstand what Lucifer refers to there--and it's not Satan--your complaint is with Manley Hall, not Masonry.

It's not true that Masonry has any interest in Lucifer, Satan, or the Devil or that what Manly P. Hall said represents anything but his personal interpretation of things. Masonry asks members to develop their own values, so no one, including Hall, is speaking for the values of Masons or Masonry.

There are far worse people who belong to the clubs or churches all of you belong to, but we are too fairminded to accuse you of believing whatever they say, just because of that. I'd recommend that kind of fair-mindedness and Christian ethics to you, too. You'll feel better if you take it up.

As Manly Palmer Hall said, freemasonry is:

" Freemasonry is a fraternity within a fraternity -- an outer organization concealing an inner brotherhood of the elect ... it is necessary to establish the existence of these two separate and yet interdependent orders, the one visible and the other invisible. The visible society is a splendid camaraderie of 'free and accepted' men enjoined to devote themselves to ethical, educational, fraternal, patriotic, and humanitarian concerns. The invisible society is a secret and most August [defined as 'of majestic dignity, grandeur'] fraternity whose members are dedicated to the service of a mysterious arcannum arcandrum [defined as 'a secret, a mystery']." [Hall, Lectures on Ancient Philosophy, p. 433]

From this site: TITLE: FREEMASONRY -- TWO ORGANIZATIONS, ONE VISIBLE, THE OTHER INVISIBLE

Your (those freemasons posting on this thread and on this site) descriptions of your Masonic experience is you teach moral lessons, sometimes eat a steak dinner, maybe with a potato, listen to somewhat boring speeches, and play cards.

Other Masons report doing other things, including taking oaths. Jesus said:

"But let your word 'yes be 'yes,' and your 'no be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one."


taken from here:
Matthew 5:37 All you need to say is simply 'Yes' or 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

Taking oaths is not compatible with being a follower of Christ. That doesn't mean those living in this sin are not saved. That I can not say.

Since Masonry has always had a tier-structure that is occult, and since it has always involved taking oaths, how could whoever founded it have been led by the Holy Spirit?


Ephesians 6:12 tells us:

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.


https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians 6:12

 

[Ellwood3]

As Manly Palmer Hall said, freemasonry is:

" Freemasonry is a fraternity within a fraternity -- an outer organization concealing an inner brotherhood of the elect ... it is necessary to establish the existence of these two separate and yet interdependent orders, the one visible and the other invisible. The visible society is a splendid camaraderie of 'free and accepted' men enjoined to devote themselves to ethical, educational, fraternal, patriotic, and humanitarian concerns. The invisible society is a secret and most August [defined as 'of majestic dignity, grandeur'] fraternity whose members are dedicated to the service of a mysterious arcannum arcandrum [defined as 'a secret, a mystery']." [Hall, Lectures on Ancient Philosophy, p. 433]

From this site: TITLE: FREEMASONRY -- TWO ORGANIZATIONS, ONE VISIBLE, THE OTHER INVISIBLE

Your (those freemasons posting on this thread and on this site) descriptions of your Masonic experience is you teach moral lessons, sometimes eat a steak dinner, maybe with a potato, listen to somewhat boring speeches, and play cards.

Other Masons report doing other things, including taking oaths. Jesus said:

"But let your word 'yes be 'yes,' and your 'no be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one."


taken from here:
Matthew 5:37 All you need to say is simply 'Yes' or 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

Taking oaths is not compatible with being a follower of Christ. That doesn't mean those living in this sin are not saved. That I can not say.

Since Masonry has always had a tier-structure that is occult, and since it has always involved taking oaths, how could whoever founded it have been led by the Holy Spirit?


Ephesians 6:12 tells us:

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.


https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians 6:12

(Bold-face, and font size emphasis mine)



The word "occult" means hidden. The definition of the word is from the dictionary:


Occult (e kult’, ok’ult) 1. (adj.) beyond the range of ordinary knowledge; mysterious. 2. secret; disclosed or communicated only to the initiated. 3. of or pertaining to magic, astrology, and other alleged sciences claiming use or knowledge of secret, mysterious, or supernatural agencies. 4. hidden from view. –n. 5. occult studies or sciences (usually preceded by the). 6. the supernatural or supernatural agencies and affairs considered as a whole (usually preceded by the). –v. 7. to block or shut off (an object) from view; hide. 8. Astron. To hide (a body) by occultation. v.i.—9. to become hidden or shut off from view. [< L occult(us) covered over, concealed (ptp. of occultlere) = oc-oc- + cul – hide (var. of cel-) + -tus ptp. suffix] --occulter, n. –occultly, adv. –occultness, n. –Syn. 1. metaphysical, supernatural. 2. concealed, unrevealed; veiled, shrouded; mystical, cabalistic.



I used the word as an adjective. It meets more than one definition. When I said Freemasony is an occult group, I was not making a charge, but stating a fact based on the definition of the word “occult”.


Why would a group be called "occult" just because it only tells members the true purpose and beliefs of the organization in stages?

Because it is, by definition, "hidden", shrouded in mystery.

Freemasons claim to have mysterious hidden knowledge (and perhaps wisdom to be used in guidance) beyond the range of ordinary knowledge, and that knowledge is disclosed by the organization only to the initiated by the group, whose activities are hidden from view, and so on.

The founders of Christianity were led by spiritual forces.



How could the Holy Spirit have been even at that time, involved with an occult group?

 

[Ellwood3]

Regarding the occult nature of Masonic organizations and other secret societies:


An illustration may help:

Doctors may use a test called a “fecal occult blood” test.

It is used to see whether blood is hidden (“occult”) in a person’s feces, in which case the doctor needs to check the person further.

“Fecal occult blood” does not imply the blood is engaged in dark activities in the feces. The blood is called “occult” because the blood is hidden in the feces.

The term “Occult” refers to something kept secret, hidden in shadow.

Freemasonry (and the many, many associated groups such as DeMolay, Rainbow, Job’s Daughters, Eastern Star and others) are occult groups.

 

[Ellwood3]

Another challenge to those claiming Christians (or put another way, people led by the Holy Spirit) founded Masonry is means of making pledges to other deities.



First, by definition of the word “worship,” Masons pledge their devotion to the G.A.O.T.U. just by attending the ceremonies that worship him. Investing time and money in the Freemasons is further worship. Worship means "worth-ship", and is about what gives spiritual significance to by the use of opportunities such as time, money, and other resources.


Second, the spiritual nature of Masonic oaths binds them and their descendents to negative spiritual entities. This is another form of a pledge: Bondage. The unholy nature of Masonry is seen in when the children and grandchildren of Masons, who never were themselves involved in a Masonic order find themselves in spiritual oppression.

A man is given spiritual authority to bless and also to curse his family.


One example of prayers to break generational curses:


Freemasonry - Breaking Generational Curses


If Masonry is compatible with Christianity, why would generational curse need to be broken?



Note that being a Mason or dealing with generational curses does not mean the person is not saved. That is for God to know:


http://www.ctmin.org/pdf/Generational Curses.pdf



Third, former Freemasons have confessed and renounced what they did, including kneeling to the “Great Architect of the Universe” even at the Blue Lodge level. The “gaotu” is revealed much later (at a level most never enter) as being demon worship, specifically, calling the devil by the name Lucifer. It’s a Luciferan faith.


[FONT=&quot]Would God, who is All-Knowing and omnipresent have started a group that is occult knowing in advance that all Christian elements would be removed from it? Who is the spiritual founder of it then?
[/FONT]

 

[Ellwood3]

In these videos, Selwyn Stevens of Jubilee Resources gives the date the Christian elements were removed:

Freemasonry #1:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lsG6SgLNek


Freemasonry #2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qd4Ejeo52o

Note that he says, "God loves Freemasons."

I am sure that is true.

 

[circuitrider]

Elwood3,

Truth is not proved by the amount of volume posted.

You have a huge flaw at the root of all your arguments. Your source material isn't accurate.

Manly Hall wrote the material you are quoting about 30 years before he ever joined the Masonic fraternity. Hall was not a Mason at that time and his work at that time contained numerous inaccuracies, fanciful speculations, and personal interpretations that the Fraternity does not agree with and are just not true.

You can quote all the non-Masons you want about Freemasonry but that doesn't make what they say accurate.

Your postings about the Great Architect of the Universe fail to recognize that it was John Calvin himself who coined this descriptor for God.

As to Jubilee Ministries, you gotta love when a guy video tapes himself next to a bookcase full of books as if that means he knows something.

Basically Elwood what many if not most persons who oppose Freemasonry do is quote another person who opposes Freemasonry or a work by a non-Mason as if that gives them credibility. It would be like Skip using you as a source and then you using Skip as a source so since the both of you agree that proves something. It doesn't.

 

[Simpleman25]

One point you overlooked is that Hall wrote his before becoming a Mason. Kind of hard to reference his material knowing that.

 

[circuitrider]

One point you overlooked is that Hall wrote his before becoming a Mason. Kind of hard to reference his material knowing that.

Right Simpleman. He wrote that material in 1929 and didn't become a Mason until, I believe, 1958.

Also the usual ranting about the GAOTU misses the point that this was a descriptive term used for God by John Calvin the founder of Presbyterianism.

 

[Simpleman25]

Another challenge to those claiming Christians (or put another way, people led by the Holy Spirit) founded Masonry is means of making pledges to other deities.



First, by definition of the word “worship,” Masons pledge their devotion to the G.A.O.T.U. just by attending the ceremonies that worship him. Investing time and money in the Freemasons is further worship. Worship means "worth-ship", and is about what gives spiritual significance to by the use of opportunities such as time, money, and other resources.


Second, the spiritual nature of Masonic oaths binds them and their descendents to negative spiritual entities. This is another form of a pledge: Bondage. The unholy nature of Masonry is seen in when the children and grandchildren of Masons, who never were themselves involved in a Masonic order find themselves in spiritual oppression.

A man is given spiritual authority to bless and also to curse his family.


One example of prayers to break generational curses:


Freemasonry - Breaking Generational Curses


If Masonry is compatible with Christianity, why would generational curse need to be broken?



Note that being a Mason or dealing with generational curses does not mean the person is not saved. That is for God to know:


http://www.ctmin.org/pdf/Generational Curses.pdf



Third, former Freemasons have confessed and renounced what they did, including kneeling to the “Great Architect of the Universe” even at the Blue Lodge level. The “gaotu” is revealed much later (at a level most never enter) as being demon worship, specifically, calling the devil by the name Lucifer. It’s a Luciferan faith.


[FONT=&quot]Would God, who is All-Knowing and omnipresent have started a group that is occult knowing in advance that all Christian elements would be removed from it? Who is the spiritual founder of it then?
[/FONT]

You need to do better detective work when looking for information about Freemasonry.
Everything you have written has been debunked over and over again. Yet someone still trots it out like it has meaning.
There are no 'levels' in Freemasonry. Even using that as an argument shows that your homework is weak at best. That's been debunked so many times its crazy.
I'm actually a 33rd degree mason, and what you speak is nonsense.

BTW, what is so secret about masonry? You can find everything you need to know on the interweb. If its so secret, why can it be found there?

Do some better research, from some better sources.

Also, this whole nonsense about generational curses is the most outlandish nonsense I've read lately. There are no such thing. People believe because they got cancer its because their 4th great grandfather was a mason, therefore the family is cursed.
What about all the bad things that happen to good people everyday with zero connection to freemasonry? Who do you blame that on?

If you have serious questions you want answered from some very knowledgeable masons, just ask. Many of us on here will answer any question you have. PM me if you wish.

We have nothing to hide. Ask away!

 

[Skip Sampson]

Manly Hall wrote the material you are quoting about 30 years before he ever joined the Masonic fraternity. Hall was not a Mason at that time and his work at that time contained numerous inaccuracies, fanciful speculations, and personal interpretations that the Fraternity does not agree with and are just not true.

You seem to have missed two points: As far as I know, Hall never changed his views as he originally expressed them.
Too, the Secret Teaching of All Ages was republished during the years he was a Mason, thus showing the superficiality of your criticism. Finally, whether 'the Fraternity' agrees with his views or not is open to debate, as many GL's recommended his book to Masons via their recommended reading list.

Your postings about the Great Architect of the Universe fail to recognize that it was John Calvin himself who coined this descriptor for God.

Which means nothing at all. It's the identity of the being in question, not who first gave him his name. The masonic view of the GAOTU is vastly different than that of John Calvin, and it's simply an attempt at obfuscation on your part to make such a useless claim.

If you wish to read more about the Masonic Concept of God, which includes the GAOTU discussion, you are invited to this thread: http://www.christianforums.com/t7821965/

As to Jubilee Ministries, you gotta love when a guy video tapes himself next to a bookcase full of books as if that means he knows something.

ad hominem attacks seem to be the second most popular means of criticism by Masons on this forum. As it happens, I've met Selwyn Stevens and he does know what he's talking about.

Basically Elwood what many if not most persons who oppose Freemasonry do is quote another person who opposes Freemasonry or a work by a non-Mason as if that gives them credibility.

In my case, that isn't true. I refer to authoritative Masonic documentation to back up my criticisms. It's a very effective technique, as evidenced by how few Masons respond factually to such criticism. Cordially, Skip.

 

[circuitrider]

Skip,

Just because Hall is on some Grand Lodge reading list doesn't mean he represents the teachings of any Grand Lodge. You always fail to understand that Freemasonry isn't a religion with dogmas, it is a fraternity that lets its members think for themselves. Masons don't discourage each other from reading material that may contain views that differ from any or all of us.

Hall is interesting reading but his views are his opinions only and don't represent Freemasonry as a body. It is one of the biggest mistakes that anti-masons make is equating the views of an individual Mason with the views of the Fraternity.

I'm well aware of how the GAOTU is used by Freemasonry.

As to Jubilee ministries, have you ever noticed that anti-masonic groups and their leaders are almost always run on some obscure website and have little to no connection with mainstream faith and little or no backing from any major faith group?

Big deal that some guy down in Australia has an anti-masonic website and teaches seminars. Jubilee spouts the same bogus information that other anti-masonic sites spout. So I'm not surprised you agree with it.

I'm not impressed Skip by self-appointed experts on Freemasonry or religion either for that matter.

 

[Albion]

In these videos, Selwyn Stevens of Jubilee Resources gives the date the Christian elements were removed:

I find that to be especially interesting, considering that I attended a Masonic event last night that featured a Christmas sermon from local Christian pastor, other pastors in attendance, numerous references to Christ being the Son of God, the light of the world,and our savior, Bible readings, and Christian prayer. Not once was the term "GAOTU" mentioned, by the way.

Of course, if you want to believe that something called "Jubilee Resources" which knows next to nothing about Masonry, I am sure you will.

Have a Happy and Blessed Christmas, Ellwood.

 

[circuitrider]

I find that to be especially interesting, considering that I attended a Masonic event last night that featured a Christmas sermon from local Christian pastor, other pastors in attendance, numerous references to Christ being the Son of God, the light of the world,and our savior, Bible readings, and Christian prayer. Not once was the term "GAOTU" mentioned, by the way.

Of course, if you want to believe that something called "Jubilee Resources" which knows next to nothing about Masonry, I am sure you will.

Have a Happy and Blessed Christmas, Ellwood.

Albion, I performed a Christian wedding at the Scottish Rite Consistory a few weeks ago. So I sure don't know what he is talking about. The groom is a member of my lodge, I believe a Lutheran and his wife is Roman Catholic.