Founders of Freemasonry?

[circuitrider]

Skip also fails to note that during the same time Masons were not letting in black men neither was the Southern Baptist Convention or southern Methodists. The majoirty of US Grand Lodges (and all of them in the northern US) have changed their position on this subject. I'm a member of (and have in the past held membership in) more than one Masonic lodge that admitted persons of any and all races while I was a member and I've never been a member of a lodge that did not admit black men.

Nothing like pulling critiques out of the past Skip. But then, what is a professional anti-mason to do?

 

[circuitrider]

By the way, joemf, I noticed that you said you've studied freemasonry for over 20 years. I've been studying the Craft for over 30 years and have been a Mason for 14 years. But just study isn't enough to get the answers.

For your study to be valid you have to study both what Masons and anti-masons say about Freemasonry.

I know people who hold views on the second coming of Christ who only read books that agree with their view. That isn't really studying.

If you want to know what really happens in a lodge and what Freemasonry teaches there is nothing more valuable then actually asking a Mason rather than someone who is anti-masonic who may have never actually even set foot in a Masonic lodge.

Even with careful study sincere Christians disagree about a lot of things. So your accusation that people aren't using their brains if they don't agree with you misses the point. Since you are a Baptist and I'm a Methodist, we already don't agree about a whole host of things. That doesn't mean either one of us isn't using our brain or studying the Bible.

 

[Albion]

Since Christ stated He was the only way to heaven you can start there. Especially since freemasonry clearly teaches its adherents that "all roads lead to the top", or, in other words 'there is more than one way' to heaven... which would mean either Jesus was delusional or just plain lied.

Circuitrider has already commented on that, but you have been badly misinformed from some source or other.

Masonry does not posit that all roads lead to the top or anything like that, nor does it teach that, as Masons, the members are to alter the view of salvation that they came in with--which for almost all of us is Christian.

I've studied it for over 20 yrs. and i'm still AMAZED at men who claim to be Christian would have anything to do with it

I'm amazed that a person who's studied it for over 20 years could have been so misled. But people who think they know any subject, particularly a complicated one, from "reading up on it," run that risk, I understand.

I also think that since we have a number of ordained ministers in our ranks-- ministers of eminently reputable denominations with high standards--there should be some willingness on your part to believe that they didn't just go into their Masonic membership and stay with it without investigating these criticisms and stories for themselves. What critics are saying, even if they don't realize it, is that these men have all knowingly sold out their Christian faith, and that's a conclusion that's neither warranted nor credible.

 

[circuitrider]

Albion,

You brought up the question I've wanted often to ask anti-masonic true believers.

If Masonry is so objectionable how do you deal with the fact that there have been so many Christian clergy who hold Masonic membership. I know or have known clergy from just about every major Christian denomination that are Masons. These are men with advanced theological degrees, not some Sunday School novice to be easily taken in or misled.

I've yet to ever get a satisfactory answer to that question.

 

[Albion]

Albion,

You brought up the question I've wanted often to ask anti-masonic true believers.

If Masonry is so objectionable how do you deal with the fact that there have been so many Christian clergy who hold Masonic membership. I know or have known clergy from just about every major Christian denomination that are Masons. These are men with advanced theological degrees, not some Sunday School novice to be easily taken in or misled.

I've yet to ever get a satisfactory answer to that question.

The only answer I've ever received went somewhat like this: "These men have been deceived about the true purposes of Masonry, the meaning of its teachings, etc., and the deceivers are a small group of international leaders of Masonry. They're the real owners of Freemasonry...and the ones who direct the world's economies and governments and whatever else Satan wants done. They intentionally keep all other members in the dark."

Of course, that means that intelligent, theologically trained, ministers who are members are easily tricked, while people like our friend here, who do not have the benefit of having heard or seen what goes on in the lodges but instead rely upon sensationalist literature put out by other people who have no firsthand knowledge of Masonry, can still figure it all out.

 

[circuitrider]

Of course, that means that while intelligent, theologically trained, minister-members are easily tricked while people like our friend here, who do not have the benefit of having heard or seen what goes on in the lodges but instead rely upon sensationalist literature put out by other people who have no firsthand knowledge of Masonry, can still figure it all out.

Indeed.

 

[Rhamiel]

circuit rider
have you read more about the Cristaros War in Mexico yet?

 

[circuitrider]

Yes I have Rhamiel. I don't buy your assertion that this was instigated by Freemasons. It seems quite clear that this was a secular government war against the power of the Catholic Church in Mexico. Some of those involved in the war were Freemasons and that is about as far as it goes.

 

[Simpleman25]

Yes I have Rhamiel. I don't buy your assertion that this was instigated by Freemasons. It seems quite clear that this was a secular government war against the power of the Catholic Church in Mexico. Some of those involved in the war were Freemasons and that is about as far as it goes.

Rhamiel is a decent person circuit rider. He's just confused about the fact that just because masons were involved, doesn't mean freemasonry supported what happened. He finally conceded that point to me some time back.

It's also of interest to understand what he believes. If the church says it, he believes it wholeheartedly. Real evidence doesn't matter, just what his church says.

 

[circuitrider]

Rhamiel is a decent person circuit rider. He's just confused about the fact that just because masons were involved, doesn't mean freemasonry supported what happened. He finally conceded that point to me some time back.

It's also of interest to understand what he believes. If the church says it, he believes it wholeheartedly. Real evidence doesn't matter, just what his church says.

I don't doubt Rhamiel's sincerity or commitment to his Church. But it would be good for him to be aware that any time there are two groups there is a likelihood, given the size of the Fraternity, that someone on any or both sides of a conflict are Freemasons.

In the US civil war there were Freemasons fighting on both sides of the war as in the US Revolutionary war. Neither of those facts means that Masonry as an organization had anything to do with the war.

 

[Simpleman25]

Agreed 100%

I've also tried to get him to explain the rumors of masons in the Vatican.

 

[Rhamiel]

Rhamiel is a decent person circuit rider. He's just confused about the fact that just because masons were involved, doesn't mean freemasonry supported what happened. He finally conceded that point to me some time back.

It's also of interest to understand what he believes. If the church says it, he believes it wholeheartedly. Real evidence doesn't matter, just what his church says.

thank you for the kind words about me

I am not confused about the fact that not every event in history that has a Mason in it means Masonry is a factor

but there are things to look at, the old Latin phrase "cui bono?" who benefits?

like could we say the same about the Crusades?
Sure Catholics were involved, but was it really a Catholic endeavor?

well looking at the history of the events,
yes, yes we can say that it was done by Catholics with religion as a major, but not sole, motivator

I am slightly insulted that you think I will not listen to real evidence

lol since we do not even know who founded Freemasonry and a lot of what is done is done in secret, I am not sure how much "evidence" you can present to me before one of your brothers decides to enact all those bloody oaths you had to take

 

[circuitrider]

Rhamiel, no insult intended. But Freemasonry isn't organized the way a Church is organized. Grand Lodges don't order lodges have limited authority over lodges and lodges have limited authority over Masons. US Grand Lodges have no authority over Mexican Grand Lodges.
Individual Masons hold many different religious and political persuasions. Masonic Grand Lodges don't take positions on particular religions.

The idea that some national Masonic organization was involved in orchestrating some particular political movement just doesn't fit how Freemasonry works. And, even if by some wild stretch of imagination, a Grand Lodge involved itself in a war it would be derecognized by every legitimate Grand Lodge in the world because Freemasonry doesn't involve itself in political or religious affairs. It is against our teaching to do so and would be deemed a Masonic offense.

 

[Rhamiel]

Agreed 100%

I've also tried to get him to explain the rumors of masons in the Vatican.

there is the illegal lodge called P2 in Italy

also, the American Revolution has been mentioned
from what I have read, most Freemasons are very proud of their organizations role in the American Revolution

 

[Albion]

there is the illegal lodge called P2 in Italy

also, the American Revolution has been mentioned
from what I have read, most Freemasons are very proud of their organizations role in the American Revolution

I don't think the P2 lodge exists anymore, but in any case, we have no connection to it and never did. For you to insinuate otherwise would be like me accusing you of being part of the Independent Catholic Churches, the Liberal Catholic Church that believes in reincarnation, or the SSPX or SSPV or other of the sedevacantist groups.

And as for the American Revolution, "our organization" didn't have a role in the American Revolution, although some of our country's Founding Fathers were Masons, like Washington and Paul Revere. And yes, we are proud of these national heroes and champions of liberty. Frankly, it saddens me that you do not, all talk about Masonry aside.

 

[circuitrider]

Albion already made the point I was going to make, that many of the founders of the US were Masons but the organization of Freemasonry did not have a role in the American Revolution.

Also, bringing up P2 proves you have a lot to learn about Freemasonry.

There are groups that are not a part of regular mainstream Freemasonry that claim to be Masons who are in fact not Masons at all.

As a Roman Catholic I'm sure you are aware that there are splinter groups off of Catholicism that claim to be part of or even the true Catholic Church. Also Protestantism is certainly a split off of Catholicism.

Suggesting that P2 doing something is a problem with Freemasonry is like suggesting that Roman Catholics are wrong or bad because of something the Old Order Catholics or the Lutherans did.

 

[psalms 91]

I stated my affiliation because I wanted to be clear about where I'm coming from.

I see Freemasonry as a great force for good, mutual understanding, and the breaking down of barriers between people of diverse backgrounds and faiths.

I am also United Methodist clergy and I happen to know many Methodists that are involved in Masonic lodges.

Maybe we don't want to go there. But I have a hard time envisioning what you could see as evil in Freemasonry. Certainly it isn't everyone's thing. Fraternal organizations aren't for everyone. But those who I know who participate are often some of the most active men in churches in my community.

Freemasonry is a magnet for conspiracy theorists and those who want to profit selling books with wild conspiracy theories largely because of the private nature of our fraternity.

I dont know about conspirisy but I would like youas a freemason to explain Albert Pike and some of his writings, I would also like to know how enlightenment when looked at could mean original sin as what happened when Adam and Eve ate the apple? They were enlightened and of course satan is called an angel of light. There is so much about Freemasons that begs an explanation that it is hard to know where to begin. I would also ask if you are a 33rd degree mason or above as there are hidden rites in that degree that even other masons do not know unless they reach that degree. I would also be curious about how the founder of the communist party received money to write hismanifesto and how the masons were involved in getting him inot Russia

 

[circuitrider]

I dont know about conspirisy but I would like youas a freemason to explain Albert Pike and some of his writings, I would also like to know how enlightenment when looked at could mean original sin as what happened when Adam and Eve ate the apple? They were enlightened and of course satan is called an angel of light. There is so much about Freemasons that begs an explanation that it is hard to know where to begin. I would also ask if you are a 33rd degree mason or above as there are hidden rites in that degree that even other masons do not know unless they reach that degree.

Albert Pike had his own opinions about a lot of things which have nothing to do with the official teachings of Freemasonry. Any Mason can write a book and say anything they want to. That does not make it officially Masonic teaching. Some of Pike's stuff is interesting. But a lot of it is his personal opinions about Scottish Rite degrees. Much that has been written about Pike is untrue. There are quite a few supposed quotes about Pike that he never actually said.

Adam and Eve by the way never ate "the apple." The fruit of the knowledge of Good and Evil wasn't an apple or we'd still not be eating them.

As to the 33rd Degree, I am always amazed that non-Masons who hold no Masonic degrees at all are sure they know that there are things in the 33rd degree that they know about that Masons who aren't 33rd degree holders don't know. Sorry, but that is just ridiculous. If Masons don't know what is in the 33rd degree how would you know?

Also what a lot of people don't know is that the 33rd Degree is a degree in the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry. The Scottish Rite is just one branch that Masons can join. Many Masons choose the York Rite instead which does not have a 33rd degree. The Scottish Rite is just one side body of Masonry among others. You don't have to be a Scottish Rite Mason to be a leader in Freemasonry or even a Grand Master of a Grand Lodge, the highest office in Freemasonry.

The usual silly conspiratorial argument about the 33rd degree usually goes like this.

Someone will say to you if you don't hold the 33rd degree "There is evil stuff in that degree and you just don't know about it!"

They will then say if you DO have the 33rd degree and you tell them there is no evil stuff in the degree, "you are just denying the true evil in the degree because you have it!" Baloney.

It all begs the big question, how do you a non-mason know what is in the 33rd degree? Well you don't.

 

[psalms 91]

Albert Pike had his own opinions about a lot of things which have nothing to do with the official teachings of Freemasonry. Any Mason can write a book and say anything they want to. That does not make it officially Masonic teaching. Some of Pike's stuff is interesting. But a lot of it is his personal opinions about Scottish Rite degrees. Much that has been written about Pike is untrue. There are quite a few supposed quotes about Pike that he never actually said.

Adam and Eve by the way never ate "the apple." The fruit of the knowledge of Good and Evil wasn't an apple or we'd still not be eating them.

As to the 33rd Degree, I am always amazed that non-Masons who hold no Masonic degrees at all are sure they know that there are things in the 33rd degree that they know about that Masons who aren't 33rd degree holders don't know. Sorry, but that is just ridiculous. If Masons don't know what is in the 33rd degree how would you know?

Also what a lot of people don't know is that the 33rd Degree is a degree in the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry. The Scottish Rite is just one branch that Masons can join. Many Masons choose the York Rite instead which does not have a 33rd degree. The Scottish Rite is just one side body of Masonry among others. You don't have to be a Scottish Rite Mason to be a leader in Freemasonry or even a Grand Master of a Grand Lodge, the highest office in Freemasonry.

The usual silly conspiratorial argument about the 33rd degree usually goes like this.

Someone will say to you if you don't hold the 33rd degree "There is evil stuff in that degree and you just don't know about it!"

They will then say if you DO have the 33rd degree and you tell them there is no evil stuff in the degree, "you are just denying the true evil in the degree because you have it!" Baloney.

It all begs the big question, how do you a non-mason know what is in the 33rd degree? Well you don't.

One Pike was the ehad in the US at the time so his opinions and writings do to some degree reflect freemasonry, I also do not claim to know what is in the 33rd degree but we do know that each level has knowledge that until you reach that level you do not know, hence the question are you a 33rd degree mason? Also call it what you want an apple or some other fruit but all that I said about enlightenment is true.

 

[Albion]

I dont know about conspirisy but I would like youas a freemason to explain Albert Pike and some of his writings

Although time has dimmed our recollections, Albert Pike was a famous man in his day, quite apart from Masonry. There's a monument to him in Washington DC where we normally expect such things only for presidents. But as for his writings on Masonry, they are purely his own. Any other Mason could write his own "take" on the meaning of many things Masonic, for that matter.

I would also like to know how enlightenment when looked at could mean original sin as what happened when Adam and Eve ate the apple?

I don't know what you are asking in that sentence. Does it have anything to do with Masonry?

I would also ask if you are a 33rd degree mason or above as there are hidden rites in that degree that even other masons do not know unless they reach that degree.

Explain them to us then, so we can see what you are referring to.

I would also be curious about how the founder of the communist party received money to write hismanifesto and how the masons were involved in getting him inot Russia

The founder of Communism was Karl Marx, who never lived in Russia and, to the best of my knowledge, was not a Mason.