Founders of Freemasonry?

[circuitrider]

Freemasonry wasn't founded to be a Christian organization. It was originally a trade organization similar to a trade union. And as such it protected and passed the technology of the trade through its teachings.

One of the theories is that then others who were interested in the fellowship and learning aspects of the Masonic trade were admitted into membership. The transition from an operative guild of craftsmen to a primarily educational and philosophical organization is hard to trace because people just were not as much into record keeping as we are today.

1717 makes the important historical moment when transition began from individual lodges to a system of lodges under a Grand Lodge. This transition didn't happen over night. It took a lot of years for lodges to join the Grand Lodge, competing Grand Lodges developed. There were splits and reunions. etc.

Oh, and in case you hadn't guessed, I'm a freemason.

 

[Rhamiel]

Freemasonry wasn't founded to be a Christian organization. It was originally a trade organization similar to a trade union. And as such it protected and passed the technology of the trade through its teachings.

One of the theories is that then others who were interested in the fellowship and learning aspects of the Masonic trade were admitted into membership. The transition from an operative guild of craftsmen to a primarily educational and philosophical organization is hard to trace because people just were not as much into record keeping as we are today.

1717 makes the important historical moment when transition began from individual lodges to a system of lodges under a Grand Lodge. This transition didn't happen over night. It took a lot of years for lodges to join the Grand Lodge, competing Grand Lodges developed. There were splits and reunions. etc.

Oh, and in case you hadn't guessed, I'm a freemason.

I did not guess that you were a Freemason, I try not to make assumptions about other people.

I hate to sound rude, but as others here can probably tell you, my involvement in these threads tend to go down hill fast

while I hold no personal animosity against any individual Freemason (I have had members of the Freemasons and Eastern Star on both sides of my family)
I do see the organization, especially in the 1700's and 1800's as one of the greatest forces of evil in the world

I have heard a lot of different ideas about the origins of Freemasonry
you say it evolved out of Medieval Trade Guilds.... But I have not seen a lot of hard evidence for this, besides some of the symbolism that is used

 

[circuitrider]

I stated my affiliation because I wanted to be clear about where I'm coming from.

I see Freemasonry as a great force for good, mutual understanding, and the breaking down of barriers between people of diverse backgrounds and faiths.

I am also United Methodist clergy and I happen to know many Methodists that are involved in Masonic lodges.

Maybe we don't want to go there. But I have a hard time envisioning what you could see as evil in Freemasonry. Certainly it isn't everyone's thing. Fraternal organizations aren't for everyone. But those who I know who participate are often some of the most active men in churches in my community.

Freemasonry is a magnet for conspiracy theorists and those who want to profit selling books with wild conspiracy theories largely because of the private nature of our fraternity.

 

[Rhamiel]

Maybe we don't want to go there. But I have a hard time envisioning what you could see as evil in Freemasonry.

I could give a list of events that are more or less connected to Freemasonry
you are right, some people do tend to go into conspiracy theory mode when it comes to Masons, and I do not want to give off that impression

are you familiar with the Cristeros War in Mexico?
the Church was being persecuted, churches boarded up, priests lined up and shot

the President of Mexico Plutarco Calles was awarded a medal of merit from the Scottish Rite Freemasons of Mexico for his actions against the Church
this was in 1926, not some distant past

I can point out other things, that are a little less direct, for example, the three visionaries of Fatima, the little shepherd children who saw the Virgin Mary 97 years ago, they were abducted and held captive for several days by a prominent local official who was a Freemason, while they were not harmed, they were threated with death if they did not denounce what they saw

so those are two examples of prominent Freemasons, not just average members, but people who used their connections to rise to power, and had Freemasonry as a deep part of their identity.

there was also President Gabriel Moreno of Ecuador, he was assassinated in 1875
he was a deeply devout Catholic and there are many instances of Freemasons threatening his life, while this is not as open and shut as the other examples, if you read the history books, you see it is generally accepted, both at the time of the martyrdom and now, that Freemasons were behind the attack

When people point out that Freemasonry has not been so violent in the USA
well the USA has never had a single Christian church that held power
so their is no reason for Freemasonry to get its hands dirty

 

[Albion]

I wonder what we could find that has been done by "prominent Christians" and whether we should conclude that Christianity is evil as a result?

One pope kidnapped a young boy and kept him as his own child.

All the operatives in the torture chambers of the Spanish Inquisition were Christians.

The genocidal killers of the Native American populations and the buyers and transporters of African slaves were Christians.

and so on.

I could give a list of events that are more or less connected to Freemasonry
you are right, some people do tend to go into conspiracy theory mode when it comes to Masons, and I do not want to give off that impression

are you familiar with the Cristeros War in Mexico?
the Church was being persecuted, churches boarded up, priests lined up and shot

the President of Mexico Plutarco Calles was awarded a medal of merit from the Scottish Rite Freemasons of Mexico for his actions against the Church
this was in 1926, not some distant past

I can point out other things, that are a little less direct, for example, the three visionaries of Fatima, the little shepherd children who saw the Virgin Mary 97 years ago, they were abducted and held captive for several days by a prominent local official who was a Freemason, while they were not harmed, they were threated with death if they did not denounce what they saw

so those are two examples of prominent Freemasons, not just average members, but people who used their connections to rise to power, and had Freemasonry as a deep part of their identity.

there was also President Gabriel Moreno of Ecuador, he was assassinated in 1875
he was a deeply devout Catholic and there are many instances of Freemasons threatening his life, while this is not as open and shut as the other examples, if you read the history books, you see it is generally accepted, both at the time of the martyrdom and now, that Freemasons were behind the attack

When people point out that Freemasonry has not been so violent in the USA
well the USA has never had a single Christian church that held power
so their is no reason for Freemasonry to get its hands dirty

 

[circuitrider]

Yes, Albion has a good point. Finding someone who is a Mason who has done something bad isn't as easy as finding someone who is a Christian, or claims to be one, who has done bad things. I don't call the whole Christian faith evil because of it.

You'd have to prove that organized of Freemasonry itself was behind some evil action, not some individual Mason.

You also should remember that Freemasonry is not run by one central organization. So if Masons do something wrong in Mexico (which you assert but I don't know to be true) that doesn't really say much about Masons in other countries. Masons in the US have no control over what Masons do in other countries. The most we can do is our Grand Lodge can reject them as Masons and disaffiliate from them.

All real Masonic organizations have a connection back to the Grand Lodges that came out of the UK. There are also a lot of quasi-masonic groups that aren't actual Masons but founded their own groups and stole the name. These groups are not affiliated with or recognized by regular Freemasonry as being legitimate or an actual part of the Masonic fraternity.

It would be like a church starting up and calling itself Roman Catholic but not giving allegiance to the actual Catholic Church or to the Pope. They might call themselves Roman Catholic but you'd know they weren't.

 

[americanvet]

1390-1425 is the estimated dates the Regius Poem was written which is an old Masonic document.

 

[Albion]

Yes, Albion has a good point. Finding someone who is a Mason who has done something bad isn't as easy as finding someone who is a Christian, or claims to be one, who has done bad things. I don't call the whole Christian faith evil because of it.

You'd have to prove that organized of Freemasonry itself was behind some evil action, not some individual Mason.

What's more, Rhamiel's attempt to paint Masonry in an unattractive way by pointing to various crimes and revolutions, etc. is made superficially plausible only because there have been so many tens of millions of Masons...and, not only that, but Masons who were prominent in society.

It used to be said that one out of every twelve American men were Masons, so of course there are likely to be at least some notable bad apples among all the good men who were Masons--but only because there are so many Masons to choose from. Even then, he can't show that there is any connection between their controversial behavior and their membership in a Masonic lodge.

If he were to say that this mass murderer, that swindler, that warlock, or whatnot, was a member of the College of Cardinals, THAT would be meaningful. Why? Mainly because there have been very few of them to choose from. However, finding some bad actor who happened to be a Mason is about as meaningful as saying that both Trotsky and Kubla Khan both had brown hair, ergo "that's what people with brown hair are like. "

 

[circuitrider]

1390-1425 is the estimated dates the Regius Poem was written which is an old Masonic document.

Thanks, I'd forgotten about the Regius Poem.

 

[circuitrider]

Well said Albion. Last I knew there were something like 19,000 Masons just in the US state of Iowa, and we aren't a large state.

Often non-members act like it is some vast unknown secret society when really it is a publicly known fraternity with members across the political, social, and religious spectrum many who openly wear masonic rings, emblems, and have masonic stickers all over their cars. Some secret. LOL

Masons in my lodge certainly couldn't pull some kind of military coup. We never talk about politics (against the rules) but I know that we have men of all political persuasions just in my lodge alone because I know them outside of lodge. We'd never agree as a body to some political action.

 

[Albion]

Thanks, I'd forgotten about the Regius Poem.

Yes. FWIW, I was thinking of the Regius Poem myself when I first answered that question about the "founders" of Freemasonry a few posts back.

You also remember what good it did to take on that question and answer it: ("I doubt both that claim and the Masonic documents, I'm afraid.") That's it; no follow-up question or even a reason for dismissing the answer

 

[Rhamiel]

I was asked why I thought that about the Freemasons

as for the Cristero War was in the 1920's I recommend you read up more on it
it is not just that some of the architects of that war were Masons
it is that the Freemasons actually gave them awards for their persecution of Christians

 

[Albion]

I was asked why I thought that about the Freemasons

as for the Cristero War was in the 1920's I recommend you read up more on it
it is not just that some of the architects of that war were Masons
it is that the Freemasons actually gave them awards for their persecution of Christians

I was taking account of your many attempts to connect Masonry with something or other that may have been done by someone who happened to be a Mason. I wasn't speaking just to this one event.

And I'm calling you out on your claim that "Freemasons actually gave them awards for their persecution of Christians." It's a lie, but that's what you get if you confine your research to propaganda.

 

[circuitrider]

Yes, Rhamiel, I can't take your word for that. I'd expect to see serious documentation to believe any such claim.

If you actually were in on what goes on at the average Masonic meetings you'd realize how wild that sounds.

A group of middle aged and older guys who get together for a meeting and talk about patching the roof and paying for some light bulbs, eat dinner on paper plates, and also play a few hands of spades, secretly over throw governments and persecute the church.

Doesn't that sound even just a little bit implausible to you?

Not to mention my lodge's active members include a church organist, a church choir director, more than one Protestant clergyman, a Sunday School teacher, and a retired college professor. Oh, and our most recent Master of the lodge is a Roman Catholic layman.

I find it just about as likely that the Rotary Club or the Elks are ruling the world. LOL

 

[Albion]

There was a Cristero War, but Rhamiel has chosen his words very carefully so that he can imply something that is not factual. He knows, I'm sure, that the lodge did not give awards to people "for their persecution of Christians."

But if he wants to stand behind his claim, let's see what "awards" amount to, what "persecution" means exactly, and, of course, evidence that the people allegedly persecuted were in fact persecuted only because they happened to be Christians.

 

[Rhamiel]

the persecution of the Church in Mexico in the 1920's
much like the persecution of the Church in the Pagan Roman Empire for the first 300 years of the Chirstian era, was not uniform

I heard in some of the northern Mexican States it was seen as more of a formality
while in some southern States priests were lined up and shot by government soldiers
a large number of naturalized citizens who were members of Religious Orders but who had lived in Mexico for 20, 30, 40 years were deported back to the nation of their birth
churches were burnt down or taken over by the government
desecration of sacred vessels harkened back to the Blasphemy of Balthazar

Catholic run Newspapers were shut down

 

[Rhamiel]

the persecution of the Church in Mexico in the 1920's
much like the persecution of the Church in the Pagan Roman Empire for the first 300 years of the Chirstian era, was not uniform

I heard in some of the northern Mexican States it was seen as more of a formality
while in some southern States priests were lined up and shot by government soldiers
a large number of naturalized citizens who were members of Religious Orders but who had lived in Mexico for 20, 30, 40 years were deported back to the nation of their birth
churches were burnt down or taken over by the government
desecration of sacred vessels harkened back to the Blasphemy of Balthazar

Catholic run Newspapers were shut down

 

[Skip Sampson]

All the operatives in the torture chambers of the Spanish Inquisition were Christians.

The genocidal killers of the Native American populations and the buyers and transporters of African slaves were Christians.

What proof do have to back up those statements? Cordially, Skip.

 

[Skip Sampson]

You'd have to prove that organized of Freemasonry itself was behind some evil action, not some individual Mason.

You mean something like Freemasonry's exclusion of black men from its membership for over two centuries? I'd say that's an evil action that is directly attributed to Freemasonry itself, vice the actions of individual Masons. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Albion]

You mean something like Freemasonry's exclusion of black men from its membership for over two centuries? I'd say that's an evil action that is directly attributed to Freemasonry itself, vice the actions of individual Masons. Cordially, Skip.

Well, 11:00 on Sunday morning isn't called 'the most segregated hour of the week' in America for nothing, so your criticism applies to Christianity too, and I believe that you consider yourself a Christian, so you see where your logic takes you.