Founders of Freemasonry?

[Rhamiel]

Who founded Freemasonry?

people keep telling me that it was founded by Christians and is compatible with Christianity.....

but how can we say it was founded by Christians if they will not tell us who the founders were?

 

[Skip Sampson]

Who founded Freemasonry?

The most accepted answer is that it grew out of medieval building trades in England. As fewer and fewer real stonemasons were around, some of their lodges starting taking in non-Masons and the rest is history. It's a good working answer to your question.

As to who the early stonemasons were, their scanty records point to their Trinitarian Christian beliefs, but I think they were mainly interested in being a craft organization vice a religious one.

btw, Masonic ritual likes to point to King Solomon as the first Masonic Grand Master and Masonic writers in the 19th century liked to claim that Solomon's Temple was actually built by Freemasons. This, of course, is all a fiction, but some ignorant Masons actually believe it. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Radagast]

The most accepted answer is that it grew out of medieval building trades in England. As fewer and fewer real stonemasons were around, some of their lodges starting taking in non-Masons and the rest is history. It's a good working answer to your question.

I'm not so sure. I think the earliest reliable records of Freemasonry are well after the medieval period. Also, it isn't clear whether Freemasonry grew out of stonemason guilds, or was simply inspired by stonemason guilds.

And, whatever it may have been like in the past, in its present form Freemasonry is IMO certainly not compatible with Christianity.

 

[Skip Sampson]

Also, it isn't clear whether Freemasonry grew out of stonemason guilds, or was simply inspired by stonemason guilds.

It's debatable. Still, I'll go with the 80% solution.

In a real sense, it doesn't really matter where it started, or by whom, as much as what it does today. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rhamiel]

The most accepted answer is that it grew out of medieval building trades in England. As fewer and fewer real stonemasons were around, some of their lodges starting taking in non-Masons and the rest is history. It's a good working answer to your question.

As to who the early stonemasons were, their scanty records point to their Trinitarian Christian beliefs, but I think they were mainly interested in being a craft organization vice a religious one.

btw, Masonic ritual likes to point to King Solomon as the first Masonic Grand Master and Masonic writers in the 19th century liked to claim that Solomon's Temple was actually built by Freemasons. This, of course, is all a fiction, but some ignorant Masons actually believe it. Cordially, Skip.

we can not just look at the majority of a group medieval masons and assume that the specific founders of Freemasonry held the same beliefs

most French noblemen in the 1400's held some Trinitarian beliefs
but Giles de Rais was a cannibal and a witch and serial killer

so if a group was founded by him, that would cast a shadow over whatever guild he formed

 

[Skip Sampson]

we can not just look at the majority of a group medieval masons and assume that the specific founders of Freemasonry held the same beliefs

Sure we can. Their structure reflected their values. It was only when the Grand Lodge was first formed that a departure from those beliefs became codified.

What they were then, they are not now. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Albion]

Who founded Freemasonry?

No one knows...and Masonry itself has no theory about that.

people keep telling me that it was founded by Christians and is compatible with Christianity.....

Since it arose in Western Europe in a time when the culture was overwhelmingly Christian, it's a reasonable conclusion that it had Christian origins.

but how can we say it was founded by Christians if they will not tell us who the founders were?

In fact, we cannot say, with certainty that it "was founded by Christians," but the circumstantial evidence is very strong. On the other hand, what different does it make if the founders were Christians, so long as the movement is honorable and is not contrary to Christianity?

 

[Rhamiel]

looking at the foundation of a group is a good way to start to understand it

though groups do change over time, so pedigree is not everything

I am glad that you admit that you do not know if it was founded by Christians, or Deists, or Satanists
we just have no way of knowing who started Freemasonry

 

[Albion]

looking at the foundation of a group is a good way to start to understand it

though groups do change over time, so pedigree is not everything

I am glad that you admit that you do not know if it was founded by Christians, or Deists, or Satanists

Of course, I did NOT say that. Shall I say "Nice try" at this point, though?

I said that I do not know who the founders were but there is a lot of evidence for them having been Christians. The idea that Masonry might have been founded by Deists is not credible because the origins are clearly older than that. And Satanists? Why not aliens from the planet Zog?

Let's try to be serious, shall we, and not present theories under the guise of ruling them out.

 

[Rhamiel]

older then deism?

well that seems interesting
the first lodge was founded in 1717, correct?
while it was not a prominent belief at the time, there were individuals who we would count as deists

Spinoza was a Spanish Jew, his belief system was kind of pantheist/deist, he died in 1677, a full generation before the first Lodge

I mean, Atheism and Deism are not NEW philosophies, they just were not popular until much latter

 

[Rhamiel]

And Satanists? Why not aliens from the planet Zog?

Let's try to be serious, shall we, and not present theories under the guise of ruling them out.

why Satanists and not aliens?

well there is a history of Satanic Witchcraft in Medieval and Early Modern England
most Englishmen were not Satanic Witches
but most Englishmen were not Freemasons either

I am just pointing out groups that we knew to have been in England in 1717
you said Christians
true, there were Christians in England in 1717
but there were also other groups who would have profited from the secrecy afforded by the Lodge
closeted deists, atheists, satanic witches are among such a group

 

[Albion]

why Satanists and not aliens?

well there is a history of Satanic Witchcraft in Medieval and Early Modern England
most Englishmen were not Satanic Witches
but most Englishmen were not Freemasons either

I am just pointing out groups that we knew to have been in England in 1717
you said Christians
true, there were Christians in England in 1717
but there were also other groups who would have profited from the secrecy afforded by the Lodge
closeted deists, atheists, satanic witches are among such a group

How so?

 

[Radagast]

No one knows...and Masonry itself has no theory about that.

Since it arose in Western Europe in a time when the culture was overwhelmingly Christian, it's a reasonable conclusion that it had Christian origins.

I thought its origins had more to do with the so-called Enlightenment, myself.

 

[Albion]

I thought its origins had more to do with the so-called Enlightenment, myself.

No, it's almost certainly older than that. It took its current organizational shape near the start of the Enlightenment when various lodges that dated back to the Middle Ages came together to form the United Lodge of England from which American Masonry is descended. And there are Masonic documents that establish an earlier date than you are thinking of.

 

[Radagast]

when various lodges that dated back to the Middle Ages came together to form the United Lodge of England [...] And there are Masonic documents that establish an earlier date than you are thinking of.

I doubt both that claim and the Masonic documents, I'm afraid.

But you can probably tell that I'm not a fan of Freemasonry.

 

[Albion]

I doubt both that claim and the Masonic documents, I'm afraid.

It's disquieting to have anyone take a firm stand on any subject without any personal knowledge of it...and then put his fingers in his ears when someone who does know the facts tries to tell him about them.

 

[circuitrider]

Radagast,

1717 cannot be the founding of Freemasonry because it is the date a Grand Lodge was founded by four already existing lodges. It is only logical that those lodges existed before they came together to found a Grand Lodge.

Lodges with founding dates before 1717 in Great Britain are quite common. No credible historian believes that Freemasonry started in 1717.

 

[Rhamiel]

Radagast,

1717 cannot be the founding of Freemasonry because it is the date a Grand Lodge was founded by four already existing lodges. It is only logical that those lodges existed before they came together to found a Grand Lodge.

Lodges with founding dates before 1717 in Great Britain are quite common. No credible historian believes that Freemasonry started in 1717.

ok
so when is the founding date of Freemasonry?

 

[circuitrider]

No one is exactly certain. One of the oldest known lodges in Edinburgh was founded in 1599 ad based on minutes that exist from the lodge. Lodge Kilwinning is thought to be founded 1140 ad but the minutes before 1642 have been lost so the claim can't be proven.

But 1599 can easily be claimed but possibly before that.

 

[parsley]

Also, if the original premise was professional masonry, and used as a way to determine trustworthiness when relocating, then it did not matter whether the founders were Christians or not.

Looking back through history, Christianity suffered many bouts of opportunists using the religion... it is equally hard to determine if "Christian founders" would even be devout believers.

One thing worth looking into, though -- there were many ensuing connections with side religions/belief systems that could have shaped the direction of branches of Freemasonry.