Found this article, what do you think?

AdamClarke · Feb 23, 2009

SughaNSpice said:
Based on behavior sort of like religion which is based on behavior so I guess civil rights for religious minorities must be wrong as well.

Actually while I am happy that the country I live in guarantees that right, I couldn't make a logical argument for why they must. There are many countries in the world where Christians are truly persecuted I am fortunate.

Can you provide evidence that homosexuality is an inherent characteristic? You just claimed it was.

Actually no I didn't I claim that the color of ones skin is an inherent characteristic and that same sex sex acts are a behavior. Homosexuality (the sexual attraction for those of the same sex, also known as an orientation) probably is an inherent characteristic.

I keep telling you I don't have a side on this issue why do you not believe me? I simply feel it is important to get the opinions of those that homosexual activists most often claim kinship with. And I find it important that it seems that a majority of African Americans do not claim the same kinship.

Inviolable · Feb 23, 2009

I'll debate it with ya since I seem to be the only one who likes the article.
Who is willing to say, anything.

SughaNSpice said:
Based on behavior – sort of like religion which is based on behavior – so I guess civil rights for religious minorities must be wrong as well.

Simply saying the word "behavior" means nothing in and of itself. It's the kind of behavior and the response people have to it that mean something.
Belief in religion can be a common occurrence and happen to anyone. While homosexuality can't.
Homosexuals simply cant say, "we're exactly like you! Now give us our rights"
If they're like me why do they need rights?

Can you provide evidence that homosexuality is an inherent characteristic? You just claimed it was.

In all honesty, I have no idea what homosexuality is. I can really only say, that at this moment in my life I believe it isn't a choice.

AdamClarke · Feb 23, 2009

I just found it very interesting that the more I read and study the issue, the more the African American community is not supportive of the connection that the homosexual rights community claims with them.

I have to ask myself why there would be such a disconnect from a community that is only a generation removed from egregious discrimination and still deal with the vestiges of that discrimination still today? I am in no way agreeing that this article is right or wrong, but it is an opinion and I think a valuable one. How I got tagged as anti-gay is beyond me.

Belk · Feb 23, 2009

AdamClarke said:
Those are some interesting thoughts. I did however already address the Mrs. King stance in another post. I have a great deal of respect for Mrs. King but I see no reason to take her opinion as any more influential or insightful than anyone else's.

Nor do I think you should. In the end, it must be the reasoning that we either find persuasive or not. Each of us will of course find different arguments more insightful than others. I was merely pointing out some of the issues I had with the article.

Belk · Feb 23, 2009

AdamClarke said:
I just found it very interesting that the more I read and study the issue, the more the African American community is not supportive of the connection that the homosexual rights community claims with them.

I have to ask myself why there would be such a disconnect from a community that is only a generation removed from egregious discrimination and still deal with the vestiges of that discrimination still today? I am in no way agreeing that this article is right or wrong, but it is an opinion and I think a valuable one. How I got tagged as anti-gay is beyond me.

LOL. People tend to be rather touchy on this subject in this forum. It is the only place on the board where homosexuality can be discussed so there are some pretty entrenched positions on both sides.

I'm curious about your statement that you find the "African American community is not supportive of the connection that the homosexual rights community claims with them." It has been my perception, and I will admit I have not done a lot of research on this, that the African American community that are fundamentalists are rather more vociferously against same sex marriage then the African American community at large. What do you think?

AdamClarke · Feb 23, 2009

Belk said:
Nor do I think you should. In the end, it must be the reasoning that we either find persuasive or not. Each of us will of course find different arguments more insightful than others. I was merely pointing out some of the issues I had with the article.

And I do genuinely appreciate your comments.

wanderingone · Feb 23, 2009

AdamClarke said:
I have to admit that I was a little confused by parts of the article. What I understood the author to be claiming was highjacked was the idea of a group being unjustly discriminated against based upon a characteristic over which they have no control. Many in the African American Community seem to view same sex sex acts as actions not immutable characteristics.

Religion is a choice, and we have the right not to be discriminated against because of our faith... maybe the Cogic folks should suck on that thought for awhile. I don't care what some people who happen to be "black" think, there's no "community" that speaks for everyone with a similar trait, and there's no community that has the right to claim all the rights while denying them for others.

wanderingone · Feb 23, 2009

Belk said:
..... that the African American community that are fundamentalists are rather more vociferously against same sex marriage then the African American community at large. What do you think?

Kinda like people in the "white community" who are fundamentalist are more against same sex marriage than..... well you get the point

wanderingone · Feb 23, 2009

AdamClarke said:
I never claimed that they did, you are confusing me with someone who has a side on this issue. I truly don't, but as a person interested in Christian behavior I find the subject interesting.

I think what the author is getting at is that there is a difference between inherent characteristics and behavior.

You said you were interested in what Christian African Americans thought, I pointed out what some Christian African Americans I know and know of think about same sex marriage. Of course we're not inclined (in my family) to think kindly toward cogic opinions primarily because of our less than pleasant experiences with cogic members having nothing to do with their views on ss marriage. They can believe what they want but their notions about civil rights are off course in my opinion.

Belk · Feb 24, 2009

wanderingone said:
Kinda like people in the "white community" who are fundamentalist are more against same sex marriage than..... well you get the point

I do. I think what I was trying to tap dance around is that my perception is that a greater percentage of African Americans are religious. It also seems to me a greater subset of those are fundamentalists.

BigBadWlf · Feb 24, 2009

AdamClarke said:
I found this article while researching the thesis that same-sex marriage is a civil rights issue in the same vein as the Civil Righes movement of the 60's. I would be interested in your opinions and thoughts on this article from the largest predominantly African American denomination in the U.S.

http://www.cogic.com/highjacking-the-civil-rights-movement.html

I think it is very sad that a group of people who have been the victims of generations of prejudice and discrimination are so eager to engage in the very same prejudice and discrimination against another minority.

It seems bigotry truly is color blind

BigBadWlf · Feb 24, 2009

SughaNSpice said:
"No parallels between movements for rights is exact. African-Americans are the only Americans who were enslaved for more than two centuries, and people of color carry the badge of who we are on our faces. But we are far from the only people suffering discrimination -- sadly, so do many others. They deserve the law's protection and they deserve civil rights too. Sexual disposition parallels race -- I was born black and I had no choice. I couldn't and wouldn't change if I could. Like race, our sexuality isn't a preference -- it is immutable, unchangeable, and the Constitution protects us against prejudices based on immutable differences"
-Julian Bond - Chair of the NAACP

It seems that the leaders of the civil rights movement dont support the premise of the essay you linked us to and they dont support your desire to use them to justify your own prejudices either

reposted for truth

BigBadWlf · Feb 24, 2009

AdamClarke said:
Actually while I am happy that the country I live in guarantees that right, I couldn't make a logical argument for why they must. There are many countries in the world where Christians are truly persecuted I am fortunate.

its pretty sad you can't justify legal protections for religious minorities.

Actually no I didn't I claim that the color of ones skin is an inherent characteristic and that same sex sex acts are a behavior. Homosexuality (the sexual attraction for those of the same sex, also known as an orientation) probably is an inherent characteristic.

Then it isn't a behavior and as an inherent characteristic it is no different than skin color

and all really academic as civil rights are guaranteed for behavior based minorities and the constitution guarantees equal rights and equal legal protections for ALL people.

I keep telling you I don't have a side on this issue why do you not believe me? I simply feel it is important to get the opinions of those that homosexual activists most often claim kinship with. And I find it important that it seems that a majority of African Americans do not claim the same kinship.

Strange how leaders of civil rights share and openly express that kinship

BigBadWlf · Feb 24, 2009

Inviolable said:
I'll debate it with ya since I seem to be the only one who likes the article.
Who is willing to say, anything.

Simply saying the word "behavior" means nothing in and of itself. It's the kind of behavior and the response people have to it that mean something.

Yet that is what a minority is being reduced to...a behavior. Does reducing a minority such make justification for discrimination somehow easier?

Belief in religion can be a common occurrence and happen to anyone. While homosexuality can't.

Sexual orientation is a common (even universal) occurrence, it happens to everyone.

Homosexuals simply cant say, "we're exactly like you! Now give us our rights"

why not?

Please explain why it is acceptable to deny any minority equal rights and equal protection under the law

If they're like me why do they need rights?

why should they be denied equality?

BigBadWlf · Feb 24, 2009

AdamClarke said:
I just found it very interesting that the more I read and study the issue, the more the African American community is not supportive of the connection that the homosexual rights community claims with them.

I have to ask myself why there would be such a disconnect from a community that is only a generation removed from egregious discrimination and still deal with the vestiges of that discrimination still today?

maybe it has to do with the fact that anti-gay bigotry is not just accepted but endorsed by the government and by religion

Inviolable · Feb 24, 2009

BigBadWlf said:
Yet that is what a minority is being reduced to...a behavior.

It's not being done so by anyone other then homosexuals. If they need rights, why do they need them? You failed to answer the question.
But you have plenty to ask.

Does reducing a minority such make justification for discrimination somehow easier?

Does being uneducated or misinformed make it easy to ask stupid questions?

Sexual orientation is a common (even universal) occurrence, it happens to everyone.

Yes but we don't get to choose what that is.

why not?

Because if they were like me they wouldn't need rights to begin with.

Please explain why it is acceptable to deny any minority equal rights and equal protection under the law

The only time I know of is when that minority is in threat of harming some one else' rights.
I can't say why homosexuals would be a threat, all I know is they're not being to fourth coming on what makes them different enough to need separate rights from myself.
Now, if homosexuals made it clear why they needed rights instead of pushing the "I'm like you" easy button, that could very possibly be cleared up.

why should they be denied equality?

Why should they be given them?

Garyzenuf · Feb 24, 2009

Inviolable said:
I can't say why homosexuals would be a threat, all I know is they're not being to fourth coming on what makes them different enough to need separate rights from myself.

This is where some of your difficulty to understand may be coming from Inviolable, they don't want separate rights from you, they want the same rights as you.

*

Inviolable · Feb 25, 2009

Garyzenuf said:
This is where some of your difficulty to understand may be coming from Inviolable, they don't want separate rights from you, they want the same rights as you.

*

Gay guys want to marry women?

Polycarp_fan · Feb 25, 2009

Polycarp1 said:
Well, you know the most hardcore of racists never had any problem with blasck people being black -- it was that obnoxious behavior of wanting to send their kids to the good schools reserved for whites, ride the buses in whatever seats they chose, eating at the same restaurants as white folk -- all those behaviors, that irked the racists.

Behaviors.

I admit that the parallel isn't precise -- but anyone who's been paying attention to what the gay people have been saying who continues to claim that it's purely the idea of gay sex acts that is at issue, is just plain playing games.

It is the very nature of gay sex that has the article mentioned in the OP, as well as the concerns of parents for their children, that has the behaviors aspect front and center of all opposition to gay actvism.

There is an 800-pound gorilla in the room as well.

Garyzenuf · Feb 25, 2009

Inviolable said:
Gay guys want to marry women?

Boy, that's a new one...nark...nark....

*

Found this article, what do you think?

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