Fossilized Termite Nests and the Flood

[Split Rock]

I have a question for the Creationists arguing here. So far, we have been told that The Flood could create both sandstone and limestone. What type of rock layers would The Flood not be able to lay down and bury objects in?

I'm not sure if there are any.

This about says it all. According to its supporters, the Flood could create anything we have found, or might find in the geological album. This form of Flood argument is therefore unfalsifiable, and therefore, useless.

Now, this thread is done.

 

[dlamberth]

The rocks with fossils in them have not been covered with "unimaginable loads" of sediment, then randomly uncovered from the "unimaginable loads" of sediment.
That doesn't hold water.

It all makes sense if you think in terms of a very looooooog time. In the case of the fossilized termite nest in New Mexico, 200 million years of rain, ice, snow and wind of erosion need to be factor in.

If you think in short term YEC age, your right, it doesn't make any sense at all.

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[shinbits]

This about says it all. According to its supporters, the Flood could create anything we have found, or might find in the geological album. This form of Flood argument is therefore unfalsifiable, and therefore, useless.

Now, this thread is done.

How's it going Split? Has the weather in your town been nice? I hope so.


The flood is falsifiable. What do you think flood opposers on this thread have been trying to do all along? There's also another thread going on right now, where the one who started it says he will bring evidence to show how why he thinks it is false.

It's not that the flood isn't falsifiable; it's the the flood isn't false.

 

[TasManOfGod]

The bottom of the geological column is comprised of ancient igneous and metamorphic rocks called granites and gneisses.

Exactly how would a flood deposit igneous rocks?

They could be subject to seismic activity during the Flood -Like I said it was a silly question.

A piece of string, in my experience, is 16 inches long

Wrong

 

[Split Rock]

the Bible says that the waters receeded. There's no chance or coincidence here, the waters just have to go down, viola. Just look up.

Big difference from the incredible luck you'd need to use sand dunes as an alternative to a flood.

Are you saying these mounds were preserved by being underwater for a year, and then uncovered after the waters receeded? How does that preserve anything? If you are arguing that mud covered them from the Flood, then how does the water receeding uncover them?

As far as "luck" is concerned, do you know anything about probability and bell curves? There were many more termite mounds that were buried and were either destroyed or simply never uncovered. Statistically, there will be a small minority that will be preserved and then later uncovered. I guess you could call these mounds "lucky," but so what? I would call them far more lucky if they survived a Global Flood that carved vast canyons and reshaped the face of the earth.

 

[Split Rock]

How's it going Split? Has the weather in your town been nice? I hope so.

It was warm today, but very windy. A few days ago we had hail. Crazy weather. Thanks for asking

The flood is falsifiable. What do you think flood opposers on this thread have been trying to do all along? There's also another thread going on right now, where the one who started it says he will bring evidence to show how why he thinks it is false.

It's not that the flood isn't falsifiable; it's the the flood isn't false.

The Flood as presented by geologists has already been falsified along time ago. It is the Flood scenario you are presenting that, by your own admission, cannot be falsified. If I have misunderstood, could you provide us with a potential geological finding that could falsify your Flood model?

 

[shinbits]

It all makes sense if you think in terms of a very looooooog time. In the case of the fossilized termite nest in New Mexico, 200 million years of rain, ice, snow and wind of erosion need to be factor in.

If you think in short term YEC age, your right, it doesn't make any sense at all.

.

In a sense, you're right; if the dunes did in fact play a part, it's possible in two hundred million years or so, if life on earth actually started any where near that long ago. It's still a long shot, but it does make more sense in that time frame. But that's only if you assume that the nests were actually buried that way.

And you'd still have the problem of why in that incredible amount of time, wasn't the nest made of only mud and sand destroyed by the combination of incredible wieght on it, and the factors of all types of weather erosion.

It's only mud and sand.

 

[shinbits]

Are you saying these mounds were preserved by being underwater for a year, and then uncovered after the waters receeded? How does that preserve anything? If you are arguing that mud covered them from the Flood, then how does the water receeding uncover them?

If muddy water covered them, they wouldn't have to be "uncovered" when the waters receeded.

You're assuming that the mud "piled up" on the mounds, and as a result, had to be uncovered. The mud need not be caked on that much in order to preserve it, but just sufficiently covered. In fact, the nest wouldn't get caked with mud, since it was at such a high elevation where mudslides wouldn't pile on as much sediment; the muddy water would cover it enough as the water rose, and that would let the nest retain it's basic shape. When the water receeds, there'd be nothing that needs uncovering.

Simple.

 

[shinbits]

It was warm today, but very windy. A few days ago we had hail. Crazy weather. Thanks for asking

I'm glad the weather was warm for you.

The Flood as presented by geologists has already been falsified along time ago.

If you present what this "falsification" of the flood was, I'm pretty sure that as we examine it, it will be found that this is not really the case, in the same way we are examine these nests and showing reasons for a flood.

It is the Flood scenario you are presenting that, by your own admission, cannot be falsified.

I didn't say can't be falsified; I said isn't false. There's a big difference.

If I have misunderstood, could you provide us with a potential geological finding that could falsify your Flood model?

You claimed that geologists have falsified the flood. Whatever info you've read on that subject shows how it's falsifiable;

Again, if we could examine it here, I'm sure it will be shown that though it's falsifiable, it isn't actaully false.

 

[dlamberth]

In a sense, you're right; if the dunes did in fact play a part, it's possible in two hundred million years or so, if life on earth actually started any where near that long ago. It's still a long shot, but it does make more sense in that time frame. But that's only if you assume that the nests were actually buried that way.

And you'd still have the problem of why in that incredible amount of time, wasn't the nest made of only mud and sand destroyed by the combination of incredible wieght on it, and the factors of all types of weather erosion.

It's only mud and sand.

I think we need to get the geology right, at least for the nest in New Mexico. That's because you still seem to have some images and concepts wrong. First off, most of the nest is already undergound, only a small part is above ground. Because you don't like to follow links, I'm posting part of an article of the person who actually found the nest in New Mexico. There are hints in the story of the geology of the hill in which the nest were found, why the hill is still there and the state of the nest. Here's a cut and past from this LINK:

Paleontologist Stephen Hasiotis is finding what his colleagues have long overlooked: nests, hives, and trackways that are tens of millions of years older than anyone thought they could be.​

Just north of the town of Gallup, New Mexico, is a hill of olive-colored sandstone. One late spring afternoon paleontologist Stephen Hasiotis walks up its grassy apron, crosses over onto bare rock, and loses his composure. "Oh man, oh man," he mutters. "Look at all this."​

He kneels by a stub of white rock--one of many--that just barely pushes through the darker stone around it. Its surface is not the smooth, featureless face you'd expect from an exposure to wind and rain; rather it shows a mass of fine tangles, of tubes branching into more tubes or tying themselves off in blobs. The rock looks as if someone had patiently modeled it before it hardened, some 155 million years ago. And in fact, according to Hasiotis, someone did. "Termites," he says. "This was all done by termites."​

Originally this hill was a sand dune in a desert; when the climate turned damper, a stabilizing soil buried the dune and eventually formed a hard brown mudstone that now sits like a cap on top of the sandstone hill.​

Geologists who have visited the hill over the years assumed that the strange patches of white rock on the slopes were formed by lightning, which, in striking the sand, fused the grains into columns of a mineral known as fulgurite. But in 1995 a group of geologists noted the intricate texture of these white rocks which fulgurite doesn't have--and decided they needed to call in Hasiotis.​

Hasiotis is a rare sort of paleontologist: he searches the land for evidence of animals that are unlikely to have left behind any fossilized remains. He looks for the leavings of invertebrates--such as insects, spiders, crustaceans, and worms--which, from a fossil hunter's perspective, are just made of the wrong stuff. Some are soft and pulpy; others have exoskeletons made of protein known as chitin. "Chitin's a good source of nutrition for other insects and soil critters, so the bodies break down relatively fast," Hasiotis points out. As a result, the fossil record gives paleontologists a skewed vision of the history of life on land. We know that today invertebrates are staggeringly diverse, with perhaps 5 million species of insects alone (mammals number only 4,000), and that they are essential cogs in the machinery of ecosystems: they pollinate plants, break down organic matter, help create soils, and alter the composition of the atmosphere. Presumably, terrestrial invertebrates were just as important tens or hundreds of millions of years ago, but without fossils their history is difficult to reconstruct. Still, it's not impossible: while invertebrates may not leave bones behind, they do leave permanent marks on the land in the form of trails, tunnels, nests, burrows, and other cryptic inscriptions. Recognizing these traces is a craft that only a few scientists have mastered. They are known as ichnologists--from the Greek ichnos, for "track." Hasiotis is, in a sense, a paleontological tracker.​

When he first came to this hill in 1995, he could see right away that the white rocks bore the signs of ancient termite activity. In semiarid regions colonies of termites routinely set up nests around the roots of a tree or shrub. They dig out tunnels and chambers around the plant and use chewed-up wood and their own droppings to line the walls. The mound becomes a kind of insect castle, with chambers dedicated to specific purposes: some are filled with eggs, others with waste or corpses or the fungus the termites harvest for food. As the colony's population increases to a million or beyond, workers dig out more and more rooms, until eventually they build a tower up to 30 feet tall; underground, their networks may stretch more than 100 feet.​

Now, as he climbs the hill, Hasiotis points out the clues that tell him these rocks were once such termite nests. He picks up loose hunks of rock lying on the sandstone that have the dribbly look of melted candle wax, and he indicates the tunnels and the pancake-shaped fungus gardens. He traces his finger over broken corridors, indicating the hair-thin walls that the termites made in the sand--material so tough that it is still visible after 155 million years. "This stuff is like termite concrete," Hasiotis says.​

Because this is only the third time Hasiotis has climbed the hill, he is seeing much of it for the first time. "I still cannot believe it. I still cannot freaking believe it," he says as he stares around him. "Here's a place you could come back to for ten years and not see everything." The farther he walks, the more astounding the termite nests become. One is so wide that Hasiotis--a big man with the body of a bouncer--can't get his arms around it. Another stretches along the slope of the hillside for ten feet, twisting and branching, before diving into the ground.​

Hasiotis scrambles up to the mudstone cap and finds a path down to the other, as-yet-unseen side of the hill. Dozens of mounds are strewn here as well. "This is so sick!" he shouts. A ten-foot-tall hunk of termite nest buttresses a sandstone spire. Another rivals a redwood stump in its girth. These are the biggest fossilized termite mounds ever found--and 60 million years older than the oldest fossil of an actual termite. Yet they are only a fraction of their original size. When they were inhabited by living termites, they would have reached all the way to the surface of the ground, which is marked today by the mudstone cap. Hasiotis glances downhill at the mounds and then up to the summit. "I'd guess that some of these were 170 feet long."​

Sometimes Hasiotis describes ichnology as a kind of animal archeology, and there could be no better example than this hill outside Gallup. "It's a termite city," he says as he walks among the towers and broken rubble. "It's like we're in The Planet of the Apes, when Charlton Heston walks through the ruins of New York City. But here it's this great termite civilization 155 million years old."

Go to the link above to read the rest.


.​

 

[dlamberth]

They could be subject to seismic activity during the Flood -Like I said it was a silly question.

so your saying that the complete geologic column began with the flood and that before the flood no earth was created as a part of the record?

That makes no sense!

I'm sorry I need to like to a picture of the column because it will not copy and past... HERE a link to the column. Please look at it and explain where the flood is and how it created these layers with different aged fossils and rocks.

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[TasManOfGod]

so your saying that the complete geologic column began with the flood and that before the flood no earth was created as a part of the record?

That makes no sense!

I'm sorry I need to like to a picture of the column because it will not copy and past... HERE a link to the column. Please look at it and explain where the flood is and how it created these layers with different aged fossils and rocks.

.

With the little knowledge I have of this "foreign " terminology I would have to say that the flood occurred just above the "Cambrian" but that would be on the basis that there was no seismic activity and that all previous soil coverage was disturbed. (in other words equivalent to the normal length of a piece of string)

 

[notto]

Simple. Why do you believe that this is so? Using your answer, I'll show you why this doesn't really hold water.

The burden of proof would be on you to support your claims shinbits.

All that is needed to refute your 'logical' claim with your own approach is to say you are wrong. No evidence or actual logic needed, just a simply unsupported claim that you are wrong. See how easy it is to refute unsupported claims.

As far as evidence that shows us that much of the earth was covered and uncovered by sedimentation and erosion, the structure in the picture I provided (Devils Tower) is good evidence of just that fact.

Now, can you support your 'logical' claim that the suggested mechanism is not feasible. You will probably need to actually address the mechanisms involved and describe them, describe actual geologic structures and observable evidence. You will notice that most of the posters here support their claims with references to evidence. I would expect the same of you if you want your claim to be accepted. Otherwise, it is just another in a long list of unsupported claims.

 

[Praxiteles]

Most likely, it was attached to the piece of ground that was floating.

Here it is again, because I couldn't believe it the first time I read it.

Most likely, it was attached to the piece of ground that was floating.

Well, there you have it. The mind-shrivelling effect of YEC. In the twisting and turning that YEC must undergo to try and support its brainless assertions, you will eventually end up the a statement such as this one. A statement that is so counter to reality that you must question the sanity of the person making it.

YEC is the mind killer.

Oh well. We'll always need some people to clean the toilets.

 

[dlamberth]

With the little knowledge I have of this "foreign " terminology I would have to say that the flood occurred just above the "Cambrian" but that would be on the basis that there was no seismic activity and that all previous soil coverage was disturbed. (in other words equivalent to the normal length of a piece of string)

If you don't mind, because I want to refure to it, I want to keep this LINK to the picture of the Geologic Column up front for our usage.

I'm trying to build a geologic column using flood images. With that in mind, where on the geological column, for your flood, (refer the LINK above) do you place the mountain building episode, the carving of Hell's Canyon, the Ice Age, the flood itself and if this makes sense, when the draining of the waters from the flood had finished.


.

 

[shinbits]

Here it is again, because I couldn't believe it the first time I read it.



Well, there you have it. The mind-shrivelling effect of YEC. In the twisting and turning that YEC must undergo to try and support its brainless assertions, you will eventually end up the a statement such as this one. A statement that is so counter to reality that you must question the sanity of the person making it.

YEC is the mind killer.

Oh well. We'll always need some people to clean the toilets.

This is the mark of someone losing; to cling way back to when they at one time were winning.

Yeppers, all, I did say that. It took time discuss possible options, and we've arrived at the best one thus far for a flood and the OP.

It's not how you start, but how you finish that matters. I may have shot airballs and got blown out the first three playoff games; but if I win game seven, that's all that matters.


I am, the Rocky Balboa of crevo debates.

 

[shinbits]

The burden of proof would be on you to support your claims shinbits.

All that is needed to refute your 'logical' claim with your own approach is to say you are wrong. No evidence or actual logic needed, just a simply unsupported claim that you are wrong. See how easy it is to refute unsupported claims.

I gave support for everything I've said. You cute little bit of "you're wrong" as a refutation has not been backed up with any logical discourse.

That's the big difference.

As far as providing reasons as to the mechanisms used to support fossilization methods other then a flood, I've shown why using the simplest possible logic, and using the facts you've all so graciously posted.

You guys however, haven't shown why your proposition is logical at all. So now, the burden of proof is on you to show why your propositions aren't illogical.


Love you all.

 

[Praxiteles]

This is the mark of someone losing; to cling way back to when they at one time were winning.

Yeppers, all, I did say that. It took time discuss possible options, and we've arrived at the best one thus far for a flood and the OP.

It's not how you start, but how you finish that matters. I may have shot airballs and got blown out the first three playoff games; but if I win game seven, that's all that matters.


I am, the Rocky Balboa of crevo debates.

We're all waiting for Shinbits VI to come out.

But, honestly, why did you say that? Floating ground?

 

[shinbits]

We're all waiting for Shinbits VI to come out.

lol.

But, honestly, why did you say that? Floating ground?

The OP asked for an explination. So I offered one based on the what I knew at the time. What helped me, was when people started posting a bunch of links with lots of info in them. With that info, I was able to better show how a flood would work, as the OP was asking.

 

[Jet Black]

no shinbits, you haven't answered the OP and you've just been making things up as you go along without consideration of the implications of what you have been saying.