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Fossil records

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Scotishfury09

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I have an honest question in regard to fossil records and evolution.

I had read in a lot of different places how if evolution was true and animals had to have very slow and small changes there should be more fossil evidence of creatures like the archeopteryx. I may just be ignorant and have not read enough about the subject to find that there actually is fossil evidence, but I just wanted to know what most of you TE's know about this dilemma.
 

LewisWildermuth

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I have an honest question in regard to fossil records and evolution.

I had read in a lot of different places how if evolution was true and animals had to have very slow and small changes there should be more fossil evidence of creatures like the archeopteryx. I may just be ignorant and have not read enough about the subject to find that there actually is fossil evidence, but I just wanted to know what most of you TE's know about this dilemma.
This is a dilemma for those who have not bothered to study how fossilization works and have not bothered to look at any fossils other than the select few that get public fame.

Having visited the back rooms of some museums and university collections, I have had the opportunity to see more fossils than most people know exist.

Even with the rarity of preservation, there are strong and amazing links between all life on this planet. Sadly very few bother to look at what we have found and are fooled by those who say we have found nothing.
 
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Mallon

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There are two things you need to remember about the fossil record:
(1) The very nature by which fossils are preserved prevents the majority of life on earth from ever fossilizing. Thus, the fossil record is unsurprsingly incomplete and represents only a glimpse of the history of life on earth.
(2) We are finding more (and new) fossil species every day.

Thus, there have been a number of feathered dinosaurs uncovered since the discovery of Archaeopteryx nearly 200 years ago. Here's a smattering...
Sinornithosaurus-fossil.jpg

sinosauropteryx.jpg

350px-Microraptor_gui_(dinos).jpg

jinfengopteryx.png

yixianosaurus1%5B1%5D.jpg
 
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laptoppop

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Mallon

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The difficulty with the small number of possible transitional candidates in the fossil record gave rise to modifications in evolutionary theory such as punctuated equilibrium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuated_equilibrium
No, stasis in the fossil record gave rise to punctuated equilibrium. If you read any of the works by the founders of the theory, you will note that they were indeed content with the definite existence of fossil intermediates. Fish with feet, birds with bony tails and teeth, mammals with reptilian jaws, etc., etc., etc. If it were not for those transitional fossils, Gould would not have supported evolution in the fossil record (which, obviously, he did).
 
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Scotishfury09

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There are two things you need to remember about the fossil record:
(1) The very nature by which fossils are preserved prevents the majority of life on earth from ever fossilizing. Thus, the fossil record is unsurprsingly incomplete and represents only a glimpse of the history of life on earth.
(2) We are finding more (and new) fossil species every day.


If you would please elaborate on how most of life is prevented from fossilizing? I'm not trying to sound rude in any way but we have so many fossils of dinosaurs, why can't we have more fossils of animals after them? Thank you for your post. :thumbsup:
 
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Mallon

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If you would please elaborate on how most of life is prevented from fossilizing? I'm not trying to sound rude in any way but we have so many fossils of dinosaurs, why can't we have more fossils of animals after them? Thank you for your post. :thumbsup:
Don't be so shy -- there's nothing rude about asking questions! :)
The rarity of fossilization is well-put by Wikipedia:
Fossilization is actually a rare occurrence because most components of formerly-living things tend to decompose relatively quickly following death. In order for an organism to be fossilized, the remains normally need to be covered by sediment as soon as possible. However there are exceptions to this, such as if an organism becomes frozen, desiccated, or comes to rest in an anoxic (oxygen-free) environment such as at the bottom of a lake. There are several different types of fossils and fossilization processes.
Due to the combined effect of taphonomic processes and simple mathematical chance, fossilization tends to favor organisms with hard body parts, those that were widespread, and those that lived for a long time. On the other hand, it is very unusual to find fossils of small, soft bodied, geographically restricted and geologically ephemeral organisms, because of their relative rarity and low likelihood of preservation.
Larger specimens (macrofossils) are more often observed, dug up and displayed, although microscopic remains (microfossils) are actually far more common in the fossil record.
If you have any more specific questions, please feel free to ask.
 
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laptoppop

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No, stasis in the fossil record gave rise to punctuated equilibrium. If you read any of the works by the founders of the theory, you will note that they were indeed content with the definite existence of fossil intermediates. Fish with feet, birds with bony tails and teeth, mammals with reptilian jaws, etc., etc., etc. If it were not for those transitional fossils, Gould would not have supported evolution in the fossil record (which, obviously, he did).
uh huh.
From http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/punc-eq.html :
The theory of Punctuated Equilibria provides paleontologists with an explanation for the patterns which they find in the fossil record. This pattern includes the characteristically abrupt appearance of new species, the relative stability of morphology in widespread species, the distribution of transitional fossils when those are found, the apparent differences in morphology between ancestral and daughter species, and the pattern of extinction of species.
 
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Mallon

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uh huh.
From http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/punc-eq.html :
The theory of Punctuated Equilibria provides paleontologists with an explanation for the patterns which they find in the fossil record. This pattern includes the characteristically abrupt appearance of new species, the relative stability of morphology in widespread species, the distribution of transitional fossils when those are found, the apparent differences in morphology between ancestral and daughter species, and the pattern of extinction of species.
Exactly. "Punk eek" accounts for transitional fossils. I am simply trying to counteract the rampant YEC misconception that PE was developed due to the absence of transitional fossils. They are there -- they simply do not grade in the steady-state, anagenetic fashion Darwin first believed. Apologies if this is what you were trying to say.
(Incidentally, I can point you to several papers that illustrate gradual, steady-state evolution in the fossil record, if you're interested. Anagenesis and cladogenes [puntuated equilibrium] are not mutually exclusive.)
 
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Scotishfury09

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That does clear some of it up, but I still question why there are no more larger bodied mammals. Is there record of mammals starting small and growing larger into things like whales and elephants, surely these things are applicable for fossilization? Is there evidence for their ancestor that can be traced back to the origins of mammals or at least where it split into other species?
 
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Mallon

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That does clear some of it up, but I still question why there are no more larger bodied mammals.
Large-bodied mammals have an excellent fossil record, extending all the way through the Cenozoic.
Is there record of mammals starting small and growing larger into things like whales and elephants, surely these things are applicable for fossilization?
Whale and elephant evolution is no mystery, and it is supported by transitional fossil evidence. It's all a bit much to go into here, but the literature on these subjects is deep, if you're willing to wade through it.

Elephant evolution at a glance:
ancestry.gif


Whale evolution at a glance:
image010.jpg


Is there evidence for their ancestor that can be traced back to the origins of mammals or at least where it split into other species?
No, we do not have the entire record for the origins of mammals stretching all the way through to the origins of modern whales or elephants. That record is ~150 million years old! We can observe fossil transitions from primitive mammals to eutherians to probiscids to elephants, though. The chain is there, though broken in many places, and is supported by shared specific skeletal features and DNA.
 
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mark kennedy

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I have an honest question in regard to fossil records and evolution.

I had read in a lot of different places how if evolution was true and animals had to have very slow and small changes there should be more fossil evidence of creatures like the archeopteryx. I may just be ignorant and have not read enough about the subject to find that there actually is fossil evidence, but I just wanted to know what most of you TE's know about this dilemma.

This is a semi technical discussion from a Creationist perspective. You might be interested in how Creationists look at this celebrated, supposedly dramatic transitional.

New four-winged feathered dinosaur?

For something a little more detailed and, in my opinion, very insightful try browsing this discussion of the problems with the actual transition:

Reptiles and birds possess septate lungs rather than the alveolar-style lungs of mammals. The morphology of the unmodified, bellowslike septate lung restricts the maximum rates of respiratory gas exchange. Among taxa possessing septate lungs, only the modified avian flow-through lung is capable of the oxygen-carbon dioxide exchange rates that are typical of active endotherms. Paleontological and neontological evidence indicates that theropod dinosaurs possessed unmodified, bellowslike septate lungs that were ventilated with a crocodilelike hepatic-piston diaphragm. The earliest birds (Archaeopteryx and enantiornithines) also possessed unmodified septate lungs but lacked a hepatic-piston diaphragm mechanism. These data are consistent with an ectothermic status for theropod dinosaurs and early birds.

Lung Structure and Ventilation in Theropod Dinosaurs and Early Birds

Evolutionists are quick to tell you that we have transitional looking bird dinos but they are not so clear how they made such a dramatic change in vital organs. It involves a lot more then growing feathers.

I'll check back and if you are having trouble with this I'll see what I can do to help.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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shernren

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Mallon

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This is a semi technical discussion from a Creationist perspective. You might be interested in how Creationists look at this celebrated, supposedly dramatic transitional.

New four-winged feathered dinosaur?
As a palaeontologist, I'm pretty disappointed with this article for a number of reasons. The first is that it completely misrepresents the significance of the find. I'll address the four points made in their summary...
The dubious nature of the evidence itself, since it all comes from the same area as the Archaeoraptor hoax, and the first named ‘Microraptor’ was actually part of this.
The "Archaeoraptor" hoax was assembled by local farmers and revealed by palaeontologists upon closer inspection. The back half of the specimen, described as Microraptor, matches other fully-articulated, feathered specimens assignable to that species. Trying to imply that all bird-like fossils to come out of China are hoaxes on the basis of a single isolated occurrence is just dishonest.
The ‘dates’ are the opposite of what evolution would predict, because M. gui is a lot ‘younger’ than undoubted birds, even ones with beaks.
But nobody is claiming that Microraptor gave rise to later birds. It is simply being billed as an example of experimental flight patterns in early avian evolution, given its interesting flight adaptations (4 "wings") and close morphological relationship to birds.
Microraptor is a "transitional fossil" in the broad sense of the word because it exhibits both avian (e.g., feathers, retroverted hip bones, hollow bones) and dinosaurian (e.g., bony tail, clawed fingers, teeth) characteristics.
This latest discovery would refute the dominant paradigm of the cursorial theory.
So what? The idea that birds evolved in trees or on the ground is a debate that has been raging for decades. The preference of many scientists for one theory over another -- based on nothing more than conjecture, mind you -- means nothing for the theory of evolution. The great thing about this fossil is that it allows us to put the argument to bed -- it seems birds evolved from small, tree-dwelling theropods.
The imagined transitions from land animal to parachutist to glider to powered flier would each have required substantial new genetic information to have arisen.
Ah, the classic creationist "new information" argument. We've belabored this issue before, and suffice it to say, it's a non-issue until the evolution-deniers can define what they mean by "information."
(And incidentally, it was discovered recently that half a wing CAN be useful: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/299/5605/402)
For something a little more detailed and, in my opinion, very insightful try browsing this discussion of the problems with the actual transition:
shernren's link says it all. Yes, recent finds have shown (as predicted) that we can even observe the evolution of bird-like lungs in theropod dinosaurs. The study you are citing is out of date. And even if Ruben's study were accurate, the implications are still damning for creationists. Reptilian hepatic lungs + avian air sacs = transitional character state! Regardless, you can read the reaction of several palaeontologists to Ruben et al.'s initial study here:
http://www.dinosauria.com/jdp/misc/lungs.html

Lastly, I just want to say how surprised I am (though I probably shouldn't be) that creationists are citing the arguments Alan Feduccia in order to deny evolution. Feduccia is an evolutionist himself! The only thing different about him is the fact that he thinks that instead of evolving from something like this...
microraptor.jpg

... birds evolved from something like this...
longis.gif

Suffice it to say that nearly everyone in the palaeo business think he's a kook with his blinders on. He has certainly provided no morphological evidence beyond the superficially feather-like structures of Longisquama (above) linking birds to these enigmatic creatures. In fact, at one time he used to argue that the feathered raptor dinosaurs coming out of China did not preserve feathers at all, but instead muscle fibers. And since his hypothesis has been so thoroughly refuted with more recent findings, he's taken to denying the dinosaurian relationships of all classic raptor dinosaurs, including Velociraptor, Deinonychus, and Troodon.
The guy's a laughing stock and I think it's fitting that evolution-deniers should be citing his "work."
 
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Scotishfury09

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I realize this article is from March of '05, but I was wondering what you guys thought of it. It talks about finding tissue in the thigh bone of a T Rex. They claim that this isn't possible unless it was only a couple of thousand years old.

http://www.icr.org/article/2033/

I had read similar articles at NYT and National Geographic but they had only talked about the possibility of looking further into the life of dinosaurs rather than whether or not this agreed with the time frame of dinosaurs.
 
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Dannager

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I realize this article is from March of '05, but I was wondering what you guys thought of it. It talks about finding tissue in the thigh bone of a T Rex. They claim that this isn't possible unless it was only a couple of thousand years old.

http://www.icr.org/article/2033/

I had read similar articles at NYT and National Geographic but they had only talked about the possibility of looking further into the life of dinosaurs rather than whether or not this agreed with the time frame of dinosaurs.
From TO:

  1. The reports of the soft tissue, though remarkable, have been sensationalized further. The tissues were not soft and pliable originally. The tissues were rehydrated in the process of removing the surrounding mineral components of the bone (Schweitzer et al. 2005). Moreover, it is unknown whether the soft tissues are original tissues. Fossil flexible tissues and nucleated cells have been found before in which the original material was not preserved (Stokstad 2005).
  2. The age of fossils is not determined by how well they are preserved, because preservation depends far more on factors other than age. The age of this particular bone was determined from the age of the rocks it was found in, namely, the Hell Creek Formation. This formation has been reliably dated by several independent methods (Dalrymple 2000).
  3. DNA has never been recovered from any dinosaurs nor from anything as old as them, and researchers do not expect to find DNA from these soft tissues (though they can still hope). DNA has been recovered, however, from samples much more than 10,000 years old (Poinar et al. 1998), even more than 300,000 years old (Stokstad 2003; Willerslev et al. 2003). If dinosaur fossils were as young as creationists claim, finding soft tissues in them would not be news, and recovering DNA from them should be easy enough that it would have been done by now.
 
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Mallon

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I realize this article is from March of '05, but I was wondering what you guys thought of it. It talks about finding tissue in the thigh bone of a T Rex. They claim that this isn't possible unless it was only a couple of thousand years old.

http://www.icr.org/article/2033/

I had read similar articles at NYT and National Geographic but they had only talked about the possibility of looking further into the life of dinosaurs rather than whether or not this agreed with the time frame of dinosaurs.
Soft Tyrannosaurus rex tissue. A YEC favourite. :)
I have yet to read a creationist apologetic article that doesn't distort the findings of Dr. Schweitzer, herself an evolutionary creationist (and it seems she frustratingly feels the same way). First, it needs to be clarified she didn't just crack open the bone and found all this sticky goo inside. The marrow contents were indeed mineralized (i.e., hard to the touch), and didn't become elastic until several steps were taken to demineralize the contents of the bone.
It needs to also be said that the age of a fossil is not determined based on how well it is preserved. Preservation depends on far more than simply how long the fossil has been entombed in sediment. The porosity of the bone, the mineral content and oxygenation of the surrounding fluids, the overburden pressure, the taphonomic history, and all sorts of other factors influence the preservation of a fossil. One thing is certain -- not all fossils form at the same rate. Creationists will tell you this, because they claim to have found fully fossilized teddy bears, boots, hammers, and human fingers -- all of which postdate Tyrannosaurus rex, even by their terms!
What is obvious is that this find hints that there is more to fossilization than previously assumed. But the T. rex femur Dr. Schweitzer found is still confidently placed at ~65 mya, given its stratigraphic context.

BTW, I have the original paper describing this tissue (which ICR never actually cites), for those interested in seeing it.
 
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Jadis40

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I realize this article is from March of '05, but I was wondering what you guys thought of it. It talks about finding tissue in the thigh bone of a T Rex. They claim that this isn't possible unless it was only a couple of thousand years old.

http://www.icr.org/article/2033/

I had read similar articles at NYT and National Geographic but they had only talked about the possibility of looking further into the life of dinosaurs rather than whether or not this agreed with the time frame of dinosaurs.

I take anything AiG or ICR puts forth with a healthy dose of skepticism because they leave a LOT of stuff out, and just jump to speculation because they THINK that a find like this supports their view.

For example:

http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/dinoblood.html

Contrary to the claims of some young earth creationists, the tissue is obviously not fresh, since it exhibits coloring that is not characteristic of fresh tissue. Fresh blood vessels and connective tissue are nearly transparent (except the blood cells themselves), which is why the ostrich tissue had to be chemically stained to produce the pictures used in the article. Another difference between the ostrich tissue and T rex material was the requirement to use collagenase to release blood vessels from ostrich bone matrix. This fact indicates that much of the collagen from the T rex sample was already degraded. The primary author indicated that the bones have a distinct odor, characteristic of "embalming fluids."2 Therefore, it is possible that the bones landed in some chemical stew that preserved the soft tissue inside from decomposition. For example, peat bogs produce chemicals that have preserved human bodies for thousands of years. It is likely that some similar rare process has preserved the soft tissue inside some T. rex bones.

Here's a web page discussing the Peat Bog bodies:

http://www.utexas.edu/courses/wilson/ant304/projects/projects97/dentep/dentep.html
 
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