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Fossil Records

Ioustinos

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Hi Folks!! :wave:


This question is aimed at those who believe in evolution: If evolution is true, why aren't there tens of thousands of fossil transisitions from one species to another?


If there are such fossil records please provide reliable information. Thank you for your time and responses :clap:



Jesaiah
 

seebs

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I'm not sure exactly how many there are, but depending on what you call "transitions", there are certainly thousands... more often from one *GROUP* of species to another, but a casual study of the hominid tree shows plenty of transitions.

Out of curiousity, could you show the reasoning by which you arrived at the "expected" number?

Wouldn't a non-evolutionary theory require *NO* transitional forms? I don't recall the Bible stating that God made the reptiles, and the birds, and also some reptile-birds but He killed them all before we saw any.
 
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Late_Cretaceous

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Wow. Even the creationists at "Answers in Genesis" have decided to leave this one alone, and recommend that other creationists do so as well: http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/faq/dont_use.asp

I actually tried to make a comprehensive list of transitional fossils, but it was just too long and new ones are being discovered all the time.
SO, I will direct you to a site that has done all the work already:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html (and that one is 5 years old)
http://hometown.aol.com/darwinpage/transitionals.htm (should be more up to date)


Heck, there are even LIVING transitional species. Larvacean tunicates, amphioxus, tree shrews, ribbon worms, etc. etc.
 
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Originally posted by Jesaiah
This question is aimed at those who believe in evolution: If evolution is true, why aren't there tens of thousands of fossil transisitions from one species to another?

What makes you think that there should be "tens of thousands" of fossil transitions?

If there are such fossil records please provide reliable information. Thank you for your time and responses

Well, I hope you wont mind us linking you to a resource on transitional fossils.

Transitional Vertebrate Fossils FAQ
 
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Heck, there are even LIVING transitional species. Larvacean tunicates, amphioxus, tree shrews, ribbon worms, etc. etc.
No, there aren't.

Those creatures were created the way they are from the start.

To claim something is a "transitional species" doesn't make it so. Assumptions and lies don't count.

You could claim a seal is a transitional species between a a land mammal and a sea mammal.

You could claim a salamander is a transitional species between a sea animal and a land animal.

You could claim a frog is a transitional species between fish and reptiles, and how they just need a few more million years to develop reptile characteristics. Talk about myths.

You could fabricate a whole transitional myth using animals living today, claiming one evolved into the other (ex: claiming dogs evolved into horses or vice versa), but it would be a lie. Many evolutionists practice this art of lies.

Fish did not evolve into amphibians.
Amphibians did not evolve into reptiles.
Reptiles did not evolve into mammals.

Macro-evolution never occured.
Animals were created the way they are from the start, with variations in each species developing over time as the animal populations increased.
 
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LouisBooth

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What I really think it funny is that they just assume that it is by the way it looks...Hey, that bird kinda looks like this one..so they must have a common ansestor..Hey, you kinda look like that dog over there...if I squin my eyes and turn to the left...yeah, so you must be a transitional organism between a dog and some other form of life!! ;)
 
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Ioustinos

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I have not set any specific number to be met but surely there would be a plethora of fossil records that would back up evolution. :scratch: And such fossile records would not have questions or doubts about them.

From what I have read, correct me if I am wrong, according to evolution species went through "transitions" as groups. Therefore there would be many transitory fossils that record the changes overtime within this group, not just one or two.


Thanks for your replies :wave:


Jesaiah
 
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Sauron

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"Since there are candidates..."
Yeah, like the dog is an ancient evolutionary ancestor of the horse!

After all, they both have four legs and a tail! And their skeletal structures are kinda similar, aren't they? So the horse must have evolved from the dog!

Evolutionists make a habit of fabricating such lies and assumptions to fit their spurious theory.
 
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"There's more to it, than just examining the way something "looks": "

Really..so tell me in your words (try to make it short) how do they do it more then how it looks?

Let's recreate the wheel here. Instead of pointing you to the same answers that are generally agreed upon, spelled out very clearly and comprehensively, where as many potential questions and objections are answered as is possible - lets hear it again, "in your own words."

The TO archive was put together just because so many people have these exact questions. Why not read the link that was posted, and come back with any further questions or clarifications that are needed? Why not check to see if your objections are answered there, and if they are not, then come back and state the objections that aren't covered there, or aren't covered there convincingly or adequately?

The answer to your question is that they examine specific morphological structures, as they change over time in organisms that have overall similarity. The structures they look for are the ones that distinguish the bones of one group from the bones of another group (for instance, the specific structures that distinguish a reptile skeleton from a mammal skeleton). Finding a transition from a reptile with some "mammal" skeletal structures, to a reptile with some more "mammal" skeletal structures(or with those structures that were found before more pronounced), is identifying a fossil as transitional. A platypus is not transitional between a duck and a beaver. The similarities are gross apparent similarities of the "looks like" kind and not specific derived structures.

Another thing that is considered is age. One cannot consider a fossil as transitional between reptiles and mammals if it is found in the Oligocene period, because that is significantly after the actual transition occcurred. The ages of the fossils must be taken into account. A fossil that was not transitional because of age might still be considered a descendent of a transitional form, but would carry much less evidentiary weight than a reptile-mammal transition found briefly before the fossil advent of mammals, during the Cretaceous period, for example.

But all of these questions are already answered, as someone else pointed out. They are answered more clearly, and more concisely, in the TO archives. The purpose of the TO archives is to avoid the constant re-inventing of the wheel. If you come across an answer there that doesn't satisfy you for whatever reason, or if you can't find your question answered there, then there is ample reason to push that point here. Then you need not worry about us pointing you to the TO archive for the answer, because you will already know that it lacks the answer or does not give it well enough.

The transitional fossil FAQ is found here:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html

The term "transitional fossil" is used at least two different ways on talk.origins, often leading to muddled and stalemated arguments. I call these two meanings the "general lineage" and the "species-to-species transition":

"General lineage":
This is a sequence of similar genera or families, linking an older group to a very different younger group. Each step in the sequence consists of some fossils that represent a certain genus or family, and the whole sequence often covers a span of tens of millions of years. A lineage like this shows obvious morphological intermediates for every major structural change, and the fossils occur roughly (but often not exactly) in the expected order. Usually there are still gaps between each of the groups -- few or none of the speciation events are preserved. Sometimes the individual specimens are not thought to be directly ancestral to the next-youngest fossils (i.e., they may be "cousins" or "uncles" rather than "parents"). However, they are assumed to be closely related to the actual ancestor, since they have intermediate morphology compared to the next-oldest and next-youngest "links". The major point of these general lineages is that animals with intermediate morphology existed at the appropriate times, and thus that the transitions from the proposed ancestors are fully plausible. General lineages are known for almost all modern groups of vertebrates, and make up the bulk of this FAQ.

"Species-to-species transition":
This is a set of numerous individual fossils that show a change between one species and another. It's a very fine-grained sequence documenting the actual speciation event, usually covering less than a million years. These species-to-species transitions are unmistakable when they are found. Throughout successive strata you see the population averages of teeth, feet, vertebrae, etc., changing from what is typical of the first species to what is typical of the next species. Sometimes, these sequences occur only in a limited geographic area (the place where the speciation actually occurred), with analyses from any other area showing an apparently "sudden" change. Other times, though, the transition can be seen over a very wide geological area. Many "species-to-species transitions" are known, mostly for marine invertebrates and recent mammals (both those groups tend to have good fossil records), though they are not as abundant as the general lineages (see below for why this is so). Part 2 lists numerous species-to-species transitions from the mammals.

Transitions to New Higher Taxa
As you'll see throughout this FAQ, both types of transitions often result in a new "higher taxon" (a new genus, family, order, etc.) from a species belonging to a different, older taxon. There is nothing magical about this. The first members of the new group are not bizarre, chimeric animals; they are simply a new, slightly different species, barely different from the parent species. Eventually they give rise to a more different species, which in turn gives rise to a still more different species, and so on, until the descendents are radically different from the original parent stock. For example, the Order Perissodactyla (horses, etc.) and the Order Cetacea (whales) can both be traced back to early Eocene animals that looked only marginally different from each other, and didn't look at all like horses or whales. (They looked rather like small, dumb foxes with raccoon-like feet and simple teeth.) But over the following tens of millions of years, the descendents of those animals became more and more different, and now we call them two different orders.

There are now several known cases of species-to-species transitions that resulted in the first members of new higher taxa. See part 2 for details.
 
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Originally posted by s0uljah
Why not give them an objective scientific site for this evidence, not a biased one like talkorigins.

Scientists do their work in journals, not on web-sites. The few that do produce web-sites for public consumption are not doing science there, but doing explanation.

You won't find a site that is "objective" with respect to evolution/creation.

Whenever possible, TO references their statements to science research done in peer review journals. If you are not satisfied with their objectivity and you have access to a library, you can check their work.

Whenever possible, I post links to the ASA as well. The coverage is usually not as comprehensive, but it seems more "objective" to people here, because the contributors are (usually conservative) Christians.

The ASA article on the fossil record (including transitional forms) is found here:

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Miller.html

 
 
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Originally posted by Cyclo Rider
Fish did not evolve into amphibians.

Bzzt.  It sure kinda looks like they did.  Here's one specimen:

04_Acan_flesh_reconstruct.JPG


Reptiles did not evolve into mammals.
\

Bzzt.  Wrong again.  Here is a sequence of fossils show the transformation of the reptile jaw to the mammalian jaw and middle ear.

fossil_a.gif


Animals were created the way they are from the start, with variations in each species developing over time as the animal populations increased.

It sure took God a long time to get horses right.

http://chem.tufts.edu/science/evolution/HorseEvolution.htm

Here's a little tip for you, Cyclo Rider, courtesy of St. Augustine:

Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of the world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from knowledge and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. . . . Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion.
 
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Late_Cretaceous

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Cyclo rider, calling names does nothing to help your position. THank you.

Comparitive anatomy studies the similaries between organisms, and can actually distinguish between true similarities and superficial ones. For example, litoptern skeletons look a heck of a lot like horse skeletons at first glance, but comparitive anatomy reveals that they are from distinct lineages. The same with thylacosmilus (a marsupial) and sabre tooth tigers (cats). They have a superficial resemblance due to convergant evolution, but belong to entirely different groups. Even though true sabre tooths appear in south america just as marsupial sabre tooths disappear (in the fossil record), no competent anatomist would try and claim that one evolved into another.
 
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