Fossil Fish

[RightWingGirl]

Possibly, but then they would be mixed up with all the terrestrial organisms. One can tell alot more from the fossil record than just what an organism was, you can see alot about it'S environment and so on from the types of silts it is laid down in, and the things around it.

Very well, I understand, but I have a few more questions. Sorry!



95% of fossils are of marine life, and basically all of those found on what is now land. They are spread out all over the world. One of the first fossils I showed on this thread was of a deep-ocean fish that was buried quickly while very soon after eating another fish. Where this fossil was found I am not sure, (I've contacted a few sources to try to find out), but I'm rather certain it wasn't found under the ocean. How was this transported during the process of the splitting of the continents? A deep-ocean fish? And how, once it was on what is now land, was it covered quickly? A temporary flooding would hardly do this.

 

[Grengor]

Sources? But wouldn't it be easier for fossils to form underwater? Say... 95% easier?

 

[Jet Black]

95% of fossils are of marine life, and basically all of those found on what is now land. They are spread out all over the world. One of the first fossils I showed on this thread was of a deep-ocean fish that was buried quickly while very soon after eating another fish. Where this fossil was found I am not sure, (I've contacted a few sources to try to find out), but I'm rather certain it wasn't found under the ocean.

I doubt it too, not alot of digging goes on under the ocean!

How was this transported during the process of the splitting of the continents? A deep-ocean fish? And how, once it was on what is now land, was it covered quickly? A temporary flooding would hardly do this.

When the fish died, it would be underwater, it would then be covered by sediment and fossilize in situ. The ground in which it lies would either be transported otowards a plate collision boundary, which either are subducted and melted again, or pushed upwards into mountain ranges or above land, such as in the case of the himalayas. This is what lifts these sediments above the sea. If you are suprised by this, here is a site showing roughly how the earth has developed over the last 500 million years

http://geowords.com/lostlinks/j01/1.htm

As you can see, in the late precambrian, pretty much the whole of the northern hemisphere was a big ocean, it was all crunched together into panagea, which then split up again, with some plates running into other plates and lifting bits of land upwards. See 60 million years ago, there was a big gap between africa and Asia, but as those plates ran into one another they raised the himalayas. so lots of stuff in the tethys ocean there would have been lifted upwards.

so the fish wasn't lying on the ocean surface, carried onto land and then covered, it was covered underwater and then the sedimentary rock containing the fish was uplifted

 

[HairlessSimian]

Wait a minute, no sour grapes here, just because your beliefs are out, leave the rest alone.

No, go ahead, it will apply, unless locally spiritually overruled for quite a while still. Enjoy.
Older in your belief that eminates only from you, sir. No correlation in reality, beyond the physical only present you came from, exists. Also how do you know the famous first world cruiser occupied a small area only? Also, sir, have you heard of the ressurection of the Messiah, after which bodies in that small area rose from the dead and walked among men? Us modern Christians wait for our ressurection when Jesus returns, but it seems the Old Testament guys already may have had theirs!!!!!

I cannot follow what you're saying. I find this unclear at best. I'll ignore it. As far as the resurrection is concerned, I pay no attention to biblical story-telling.

How much was created with the earth, or resulted from some pre split process, sir, can you tell us that here and now?

Created with the earth? If you mean as the earth came together from the dust surrounding the nascent Sun, there was no helium whatsoever. If you mean as the earth magically appeared on day one of Genesis, all the helium you care to claim.

Is your god's plan to fool us all? Is it your god's plan to place helium underground alongside large quantities of uranium decay products so that we think it's been formed over eons? Don't say you don't know what your god's plan is. I know you can't answer those questions. You have no knowledge about early earth except what your bible tells you. And none of that knowledge is useful.

Pre-split? I'm not familiar with that phase of earth's history. And don't bother telling me you are, 'cause you weren't there either.

 

[HairlessSimian]

Ha, that's not saying much. As far as you know it has been underwater. The only way we know is by assumptions we artificially presume into the past there, so, your results of that exercise are only as good as the assumptions involved, which is just something you believe to be the case, which means NOTHING.

No, as far as we know, it has not all been under water all at once. You cannot state with equal certainty that it has, for that would be a lie about the certainty. It's the conclusion of tests of both hypotheses. The weight of the evidence, direct and indirect, makes the global flood hypothesis much more unlikely than not.

Assumptions are not, strictly speaking, beliefs. They are premises for logical arguments. One can work through the logic of an argument without believing the assumption. Sometimes it take a syllogism to disprove an assumption. No wise person forgets that the truth of the conclusion depends on the truth of the assumptions. The importance of the conclusion feeds the need to verify the assumptions. Anyone who says they believe an assumption is absolutely true is making a statement of belief and not making a scientific statement.
Reasonable and justifiable assumptions lead to reasonable conclusions. No artifice involved.

And, although it is correct to state that science can prove nothing with absolute certainty, it is also correct to state that you are not absolutely real and that your left armpit is, with some finite probability, actually located in the delta quadrant of galaxy NC586. So, while it is absolutely correct that there are no absolute certainties, it is unreasonable to exact absolute certainty from science or anything else, since it isn't in the power of science to give absolute certainty. It is also unreasonable to deny everything that cannot be absolutely proven, and that is your mistake.

 

[HairlessSimian]

They are not required in the present, which is all you know, and if they do operate here, which they do, it is beyond your detection abilities as well. I have to wonder if anyone was ever so squarely in, and only in the box than you.

So, angels operate in the here and now because your detection abilities are better?

 

[dad]

I cannot follow what you're saying. I find this unclear at best. I'll ignore it. As far as the resurrection is concerned, I pay no attention to biblical story-telling.

OK, to the point about what happened to the old testament patriarchs, I would say this. I think they rose from the dead around the time Jesus did, and went to heaven. Jesus will return, and the dead in Christ, or since then, will join them. Thats why we don't find them.

Created with the earth? If you mean as the earth came together from the dust surrounding the nascent Sun, there was no helium whatsoever.

No, we aren't talking evo fiction here, I mean the real creation. There was no sun at the time, that came later, as did the stars. The thoeries dreamed up how we came from the stars are bogus, Po based fables only.

If you mean as the earth magically appeared on day one of Genesis, all the helium you care to claim.

Why is it you seem to find it difficult that the One who made the universe also made helium? Strange.

Is your god's plan to fool us all? Is it your god's plan to place helium underground alongside large quantities of uranium decay products so that we think it's been formed over eons?

Oh, I get it now, the old, because it it now formed by decay, it always and only was routine! Ha. WEll, maybe the helium was involved in something else then, rather than being a product of decay, something more useful.

Don't say you don't know what your god's plan is. I know you can't answer those questions. You have no knowledge about early earth except what your bible tells you. And none of that knowledge is useful.

You know nothing. Believers have certain clues, that your PO speculations can never give you in a billion years. We can be over by the answer to some of these things, staring it in the face, trying to piece it together, before you ever even guess there is an answer, let alone get a clue which way to look.

Pre-split? I'm not familiar with that phase of earth's history. And don't bother telling me you are, 'cause you weren't there either.

Then look at the future, and you'll get a clue here. Heaven, for example, it is not a physical only place, like this present universe slated to pass away. The eternal universe is what we are talking about here, beyond the reach of those unable to peer outside of the present limitations!

 

[HairlessSimian]

OK, to the point about what happened to the old testament patriarchs, I would say this. I think they rose from the dead around the time Jesus did, and went to heaven. Jesus will return, and the dead in Christ, or since then, will join them. Thats why we don't find them.

How terribly convenient for you. How about the matriarchs?

No, we aren't talking evo fiction here, I mean the real creation. There was no sun at the time, that came later, as did the stars. The thoeries dreamed up how we came from the stars are bogus, Po based fables only.

So I guess you don't believe nucleosynthesis is real. The spectral signatures that stars send us are fiction? The dust cloud hiding the centre of the galaxy from us isn't really there? The star nurseries that we can observe are painted on the firmament? The Horsehead nebula is a ghastly lie?

Why is it you seem to find it difficult that the One who made the universe also made helium? Strange.

I find it difficult to ascribe anything to a god, that's why.

Oh, I get it now, the old, because it it now formed by decay, it always and only was routine! Ha. WEll, maybe the helium was involved in something else then, rather than being a product of decay, something more useful.

Such as...? The unfortunate fact is that helium is terribly useless, you see. It's too light to be retained by the atmosphere and it has next to no solubility in water, which is why the only helium on earth is the helium trapped underground. And chemically, it's totally inert. So it participates in no chemical, no geochemical and no biochemical process. In short, it does nothing. So, maybe helium was involved in something else but, guess what? No one can come up with a use. And certainly the bible is silent on the matter. So, while it's terribly easy for you to say "maybe the helium was involved in something else then, rather than being a product of decay, something more useful", there is no substance to your speculation.

There is, in contrast, a whole lot of substance in the affirmation that the helium is a useless by-product of uranium nuclear decay which, except for the occasional out-vent, has been accumulating underground for billions of years. The claim that radio-isotopes decayed more slowly in "creation times" was made to contradict radiometric dates, yet the case of alpha-decay of uranium belies that claim.

You know nothing. Believers have certain clues, that your PO speculations can never give you in a billion years. We can be over by the answer to some of these things, staring it in the face, trying to piece it together, before you ever even guess there is an answer, let alone get a clue which way to look.

I know nothing, you say. No, nothing at all. You, a believer, know a lot more than I because you believe.

So, tell me, oh believer. What ever happened to technetium? Don't bother looking in the bible. There is nothing there about it, I assure you.

Then look at the future, and you'll get a clue here. Heaven, for example, it is not a physical only place, like this present universe slated to pass away. The eternal universe is what we are talking about here, beyond the reach of those unable to peer outside of the present limitations!

You, I take it, have the magical power to "peer outside of present limitations"? How do you do it? Lemme guess... the bible, right? OK, what kind of winter are we going to have in 2006?

 

[Dislike]

OK, to the point about what happened to the old testament patriarchs, I would say this. I think they rose from the dead around the time Jesus did, and went to heaven. Jesus will return, and the dead in Christ, or since then, will join them. Thats why we don't find them.

Blah, blah...

Wait, you guys still respond to dad? I figured you'd just ignore him by now.

 

[Valkhorn]

OK, what kind of winter are we going to have in 2006?

A biblical one?

 

[dlamberth]

In the evolutionist model, how long did it take for most of the fossil layers to form?

One localized winter flood will do it.

.

 

[HairlessSimian]

A biblical one?

Good one!

 

[dad]

How terribly convenient for you. How about the matriarchs?

Same thing, believers are not judged on sex.

So I guess you don't believe nucleosynthesis is real. The spectral signatures that stars send us are fiction? The dust cloud hiding the centre of the galaxy from us isn't really there? The star nurseries that we can observe are painted on the firmament? The Horsehead nebula is a ghastly lie?

What would simple observations of how things now work in the present universe have to do with creation week, and when God created the stars and sun? Nothing.

Such as...? The unfortunate fact is that helium is terribly useless, you see. It's too light to be retained by the atmosphere and it has next to no solubility in water, which is why the only helium on earth is the helium trapped underground. And chemically, it's totally inert. So it participates in no chemical, no geochemical and no biochemical process. In short, it does nothing. So, maybe helium was involved in something else but, guess what? No one can come up with a use. And certainly the bible is silent on the matter. So, while it's terribly easy for you to say "maybe the helium was involved in something else then, rather than being a product of decay, something more useful", there is no substance to your speculation.

It is a product of decay, of course, we all know that. But the helium that existed before decay existed wasn't. I don't know the answer as to what it used to do. Could any of it have been in the earth ring, or partial canopy, or ancient high atmosphere, -or doing something like helping the mist to rise? Ha.

There is, in contrast, a whole lot of substance in the affirmation that the helium is a useless by-product of uranium nuclear decay which, except for the occasional out-vent, has been accumulating underground for billions of years.

Yech. Such morbid assumptions. I can safely say that is not the case, there was no such times in existance.

The claim that radio-isotopes decayed more slowly in "creation times" was made to contradict radiometric dates, yet the case of alpha-decay of uranium belies that claim.

I couldn't say, I never really read anything of that nature. I say there was no decay befpre the split, save in fallen man, and biological life.

I know nothing, you say. No, nothing at all. You, a believer, know a lot more than I because you believe.

Of the future, and far past, and what really will go on, and did, no, you know nothing at all. You have your beliefs about the future, and past, such as the sun will burn out, etc. that is all, just belief.

So, tell me, oh believer. What ever happened to technetium? Don't bother looking in the bible. There is nothing there about it, I assure you.

Depends on what you want to know, about the short lived Tc-99m, or the stuff that would take several million years to decay, if there were time for this nonsense to continue-Tc-98. Just mentioning a material doesn't do much.

You, I take it, have the magical power to "peer outside of present limitations"? How do you do it? Lemme guess... the bible, right? OK, what kind of winter are we going to have in 2006?

Believers do have the map, yes, for the future, and we know this universe will pass away, and a new one will be revealed that is eternal, wherin dwells no death and decay. We culd also tell you many basic things about the short term future, yes, such as the coming world leader, mark of the beast, wars, earthquakes, pestilence, etc etc. O non believer in God, and believer in the creator speck, granny bacteria, and a fantasy future and past!

 

[HairlessSimian]

Wait, you guys still respond to dad? I figured you'd just ignore him by now.

I admit that would be the easiest thing to do, and it's actually hard to stay civil at times. And I occasionally do ignore him when I can't.

I'm answering because I like a challenge but especially because I'm committed to do what I can to dispel the mist of half-truths, quasi-wisdom and semi-logic of the pseudo-science and non-science that fogs the minds of people who can vote, drive extra-large cars, raise children and carry guns. Here and elsewhere.

Not that dad is especially lost in this "mist". Not that I expect him to change his mind about anything, but perhaps someone reading these exchanges can take something from it.

 

[RightWingGirl]

When the fish died, it would be underwater, it would then be covered by sediment and fossilize in situ. The ground in which it lies would either be transported otowards a plate collision boundary, which either are subducted and melted again, or pushed upwards into mountain ranges or above land, such as in the case of the himalayas. This is what lifts these sediments above the sea. If you are suprised by this, here is a site showing roughly how the earth has developed over the last 500 million years

http://geowords.com/lostlinks/j01/1.htm

A very interesting website! I was aware of the changes that occurred from the "Middle Cretaceous age" until the present, but I was not aware of the projected hypothesis for development before then.


However, the fossil fish was discovered, it appears, in Kansas. Althought I am not 100% certain, it looks like the fish in question fits into the "Middle or Late Cretaceous" era. I will be contacting the museum on this point. From this period until the present, according to the Evolutionist timeline, there has not been a disturbance that could have caused a deep-sea fish to be landed in present-day Kansas. Neither the conditions for a fossil to be moved to that location, nor for one to be formed there existed.



In fact, according to the Evolutionist timeline, fish evolved sometime around 350-450 million years ago, and came became fully developed during the Devonian period. Therefore, the disturbances during the late Precambrian period would not apply.




How did this fossil, of a deep-sea fish, come to be in Kansas?

 

[RightWingGirl]

The fish is dated at 83 million years old. There has not been a disturbance that could have caused a deep-sea fish to be landed in present-day Kansas. Neither the conditions for a fossil to be moved to that location, nor for one to be formed there, or have been covered and fossilized quickly existed as far as I can tell.

 

[HairlessSimian]

Same thing, believers are not judged on sex.

How about gender? (Just kidding)

What about the brothers and sisters of the patriarchs and matriarchs? Did they resurrect and ascend to heaven as well?

What would simple observations of how things now work in the present universe have to do with creation week, and when God created the stars and sun? Nothing.

It's nothing to you only because your view of the universe requires you to deny that the present echoes the past.

It is a product of decay, of course, we all know that. But the helium that existed before decay existed wasn't. I don't know the answer as to what it used to do. Could any of it have been in the earth ring, or partial canopy, or ancient high atmosphere, -or doing something like helping the mist to rise? Ha.

Helium would not have condensed with the solids, liquids and heavier gases. It would not have become trapped in the fissures, nooks and crannies inside the earth's mantle. Any role or purpose you devise would be a product of an imagination attempting to make fact fit a lousy theory.

Yech. Such morbid assumptions. I can safely say that is not the case, there was no such times in existance.

Of course, how silly of me.

It's no surprise that your worldview requires you to deny this even if disproof is unavailable.

I couldn't say, I never really read anything of that nature. I say there was no decay befpre the split, save in fallen man, and biological life.

So, how is it that multiple radiometric methods point to a very old earth and very old life, again?

Of the future, and far past, and what really will go on, and did, no, you know nothing at all. You have your beliefs about the future, and past, such as the sun will burn out, etc. that is all, just belief.

Because the sun will not burn out? What exactly will happen to the sun, then? And what of the rotation of the earth? Will it stop? Will the earth cease to orbit the sun? Will comets stop visiting us?

Depends on what you want to know, about the short lived Tc-99m, or the stuff that would take several million years to decay, if there were time for this nonsense to continue-Tc-98. Just mentioning a material doesn't do much.

Why is technetium altogether absent from most places in the universe? What happened to it? It forms in supernovae yet it's practically non-existent! Might it be that it's all decayed?

Believers do have the map, yes, for the future, and we know this universe will pass away, and a new one will be revealed that is eternal, wherin dwells no death and decay. We culd also tell you many basic things about the short term future, yes, such as the coming world leader, mark of the beast, wars, earthquakes, pestilence, etc etc. O non believer in God, and believer in the creator speck, granny bacteria, and a fantasy future and past!

A new universe? Where no death or decay dwells? Fantasy is truly your realm.

I can predict wars, famine, pestilence and earthquakes just as well as any one. The sticky thing is this: no one - believer or not - can pinpoint a time. You can't tell me what kind of winter we'll have in 2006 except by lucky guess, "map of the future" notwithstanding.

 

[dad]

How about gender? (Just kidding)

What about the brothers and sisters of the patriarchs and matriarchs? Did they resurrect and ascend to heaven as well?

The central event in human history was the coming of the Messiah. Every believer before that was saved believing He would come, and since then, believeing He did come! No wonder the calander was attempted to be set to the year zero, or year of our Lord!

It's nothing to you only because your view of the universe requires you to deny that the present echoes the past.

No. It requires looking at reality, and what we actually know, not just believe.

Helium would not have condensed with the solids, liquids and heavier gases. It would not have become trapped in the fissures, nooks and crannies inside the earth's mantle. Any role or purpose you devise would be a product of an imagination attempting to make fact fit a lousy theory.

False! You can't tell me what helium was doing in a merged universe, so how are you going to tell me what it wasn't doing? A lot of stuff went on down there that no longer goes on. Remember the fountains of the deep opened, and spat out the former guts of the world! We can speculate, such as what if the helium were involved in producing the uranium, rater than the other way round, resulting in a stable eternal world, rather than one of decay? When the process was left as a decay process, that helium now was produced by a decay process. Therefore, today's observer might assume all the helium was produced by decay, and that it even took a long time, rather than realizing the helium was already there! (except for the bit produced from decay, if any in the last several thousand years)

Of course, how silly of me.

It's no surprise that your worldview requires you to deny this even if disproof is unavailable.

I don't know what disproof is unavailable, but I do know no proof is available for old ages. The belief that your wordview requires to exist, is all that claims old ages.

So, how is it that multiple radiometric methods point to a very old earth and very old life, again?

Because things do decay now, they didn't then.

Because the sun will not burn out? What exactly will happen to the sun, then? And what of the rotation of the earth? Will it stop? Will the earth cease to orbit the sun? Will comets stop visiting us?

The sun will last forever. As for a breakdown of universal orbits, or lack therof, we don't know. There will be a forever earth, though.

Why is technetium altogether absent from most places in the universe? What happened to it? It forms in supernovae yet it's practically non-existent! Might it be that it's all decayed?

Why would it decay far away any more than here?

A new universe? Where no death or decay dwells? Fantasy is truly your realm.

No, thats the bible. A new heavens. This universe will pass away, and is very temporary.

I can predict wars, famine, pestilence and earthquakes just as well as any one. The sticky thing is this: no one - believer or not - can pinpoint a time. You can't tell me what kind of winter we'll have in 2006 except by lucky guess, "map of the future" notwithstanding.

There are things in the bible that they could have had no way of knowing in advance. Times are predicted. Even the days in some cases, such as in the endtime. When we see the animal sacrifices resume for Israel, we will be close to telling within several months the return of Jesus. Then, when the covenant is broken, or 7 year pact, by the world leader, or antichrist, we will know even a closer timetable. Daniel also gave us pretty close years right to the death of the Messiah! The climax of world history or very end times is pregnant with earthquakes, and pestilences, and famine. The scale and magnitude of which are distinctive.

 

[Dannager]

Because things do decay now, they didn't then.

And thus spake dad unto his flock the first commandment of the new Church of dad, for there was at the time no other religion like it in manner or function.

 

[HairlessSimian]

The central event in human history was the coming of the Messiah. Every believer before that was saved believing He would come, and since then, believeing He did come! No wonder the calander was attempted to be set to the year zero, or year of our Lord!

You didn't answer the question.

In any case, the calendar was set by christians - no surprise - some centuries after the events and it was off by about 4 years right from the start. So much for historical accuracy.

No. It requires looking at reality, and what we actually know, not just believe.

Denying for the sake of preserving a worldview is not the same thing as looking at reality and much more akin to expressing belief, especially when the dominant element of your reality seems to be a single book of dubious origin and even more dubious value in illuminating reality.

False! You can't tell me what helium was doing in a merged universe, so how are you going to tell me what it wasn't doing? A lot of stuff went on down there that no longer goes on. Remember the fountains of the deep opened, and spat out the former guts of the world! We can speculate, such as what if the helium were involved in producing the uranium, rater than the other way round, resulting in a stable eternal world, rather than one of decay? When the process was left as a decay process, that helium now was produced by a decay process. Therefore, today's observer might assume all the helium was produced by decay, and that it even took a long time, rather than realizing the helium was already there! (except for the bit produced from decay, if any in the last several thousand years)

What merged universe?
What went on "down there" that no longer goes on?
It would be truly magical if the "fountains of the deep" opened up and the helium didn't escape. As far as helium forming uranium, that's pure fantasy.

I don't know what disproof is unavailable, but I do know no proof is available for old ages. The belief that your wordview requires to exist, is all that claims old ages.

The weight of the evidence doesn't constitute absolute proof but is very heavy indeed.

The sun will last forever. As for a breakdown of universal orbits, or lack therof, we don't know. There will be a forever earth, though.

I suppose the laws of physics will be rewritten as well.

Why would it decay far away any more than here?

Precisely my point. The reason there is no technetium around is because the universe is far older than any technetium, as all its isotopes decay more or less rapidly, but with half-lives reaching only to 4 or so million years.

There are things in the bible that they could have had no way of knowing in advance. Times are predicted. Even the days in some cases, such as in the endtime. When we see the animal sacrifices resume for Israel, we will be close to telling within several months the return of Jesus. Then, when the covenant is broken, or 7 year pact, by the world leader, or antichrist, we will know even a closer timetable. Daniel also gave us pretty close years right to the death of the Messiah! The climax of world history or very end times is pregnant with earthquakes, and pestilences, and famine. The scale and magnitude of which are distinctive.

Why is it, then, that Jesus promised to return within the lifetime of his apostles?