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Forthcoming Christian Film Proposes a Universalist Calvinist Worldview (Looking For Christian Themed Podcasts/ Radio Shows To Discuss Forthcoming Film

white gardenia

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Hello ! I am the director of the forthcoming film "White Gardenia- The King James Bible". This film looks at the Bible as if it were literal truth ...and also asserts a Universalist Calvinist doctrine (ie everyone will eventually be saved...and will be resurrected in Heaven and/or be physically resurrected here on earth (1st Corinthians 15:51-55) I am seeking people who have Podcasts and/or radio programs...who would be willing to discuss and/or debate the theology of this film ( I can guarantee that it will make for an interesting conversation). Anyone who is interested can message me here on Chistian Forums...or message me through my email address whitegardenia1955@gmail.com Thanks, Daniel

here is an excerpt from the film -

and here is the IMDB page for the film White Gardenia- The King James Bible (aka the Dual Track of Selfish Gene nDNA replication and Memetic Propagation of Christian Extropic Theory) | Biography
 

Chris V++

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I didn’t know Calvinists are Universalists. I was under impression they believe in predestination to Hell or Heaven (something I could never accept). I love the excerpt. Looks like something you’d see at the MOMA running on a continuous loop in one of those tiny theatres in the corner of the gallery.
 
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white gardenia

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I didn’t know Calvinists are Universalists. I was under impression they believe in predestination to Hell or Heaven (something I could never accept). I love the excerpt. Looks like something you’d see at the MOMA running on a continuous loop in one of those tiny theatres in the corner of the gallery.

Oh thank you ! Glad that you enjoyed the excerpt. And yes you are right about the incongruity of combining Calvinism with a theology that does not embrace universal Salvation. If Predestination is true, it also has to be true that the ultimate fate of the universe has to be in line with God's Will. And we already know that God's Will is for everyone to be saved....based on multiple verses (including 2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is....not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”)
So if God wants universal salvation to be the ultimate outcome...then under a Calvinist worldview, it naturally follows that everyone will be saved. If that was not the case, then God's Will would be thwarted.
 
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Chris V++

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Oh thank you ! Glad that you enjoyed the excerpt. And yes you are right about the incongruity of combining Calvinism with a theology that does not embrace universal Salvation. If Predestination is true, it also has to be true that the ultimate fate of the universe has to be in line with God's Will. And we already know that God's Will is for everyone to be saved....based on multiple verses (including 2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is....not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”)
So if God wants universal salvation to be the ultimate outcome...then under a Calvinist worldview, it naturally follows that everyone will be saved. If that was not the case, then God's Will would be thwarted.
Yes that makes sense. He said His will is for everyone to be saved, so it would have to follow logically that if our fates are predestined according to His will then all will be saved in the end. That ‘s easier to digest than the thought of babies suffering in hell. You should post in the Controversial Theology Forum.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Oh thank you ! Glad that you enjoyed the excerpt. And yes you are right about the incongruity of combining Calvinism with a theology that does not embrace universal Salvation. If Predestination is true, it also has to be true that the ultimate fate of the universe has to be in line with God's Will. And we already know that God's Will is for everyone to be saved....based on multiple verses (including 2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is....not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”)
So if God wants universal salvation to be the ultimate outcome...then under a Calvinist worldview, it naturally follows that everyone will be saved. If that was not the case, then God's Will would be thwarted.
I think it’s important to understand that things do happen that God doesn’t want to happen. I think the Bible gives numerous examples of this. Man has been a constant disappointment to God from creation to present day. God didn’t want Adam & Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, He didn’t want Cain to kill Able, He didn’t want to destroy mankind in the flood, but they happened regardless. So I don’t think we can take 2 Peter 3:9 and apply this reasoning that God gets everything He wants because there are numerous passages that specifically state that everyone will not be saved. Luke 12:10 blasphemy of the Spirit will never be forgiven. Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven. Revelation 20:13-15

“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20‬:‭13‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
 
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BNR32FAN

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Yes that makes sense. He said His will is for everyone to be saved, so it would have to follow logically that if our fates are predestined according to His will then all will be saved in the end. That ‘s easier to digest than the thought of babies suffering in hell. You should post in the Controversial Theology Forum.
The word that is translated to “will” in 2 Peter 3:9 also means to desire. God doesn’t desire a lot of things that happened in the Bible and since creation, but they happened just the same. There are things God has decreed that will come to pass and there are some things He desires that do not.
 
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Chris V++

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You know what, never mind, I see you're looking for someone to debate.
They want a podcaster or some other social influencer to participate
 
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white gardenia

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I think it’s important to understand that things do happen that God doesn’t want to happen. I think the Bible gives numerous examples of this. Man has been a constant disappointment to God from creation to present day. God didn’t want Adam & Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, He didn’t want Cain to kill Able, He didn’t want to destroy mankind in the flood, but they happened regardless. So I don’t think we can take 2 Peter 3:9 and apply this reasoning that God gets everything He wants because there are numerous passages that specifically state that everyone will not be saved. Luke 12:10 blasphemy of the Spirit will never be forgiven. Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven. Revelation 20:13-15

“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20‬:‭13‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
Well I am assuming that you are not a Calvinist....Naturally there are many Arminians who think that events happen that are outside of God's Will. But for Calvinism to be true, it must also be true that everyone is eventually saved.
 
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white gardenia

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The word that is translated to “will” in 2 Peter 3:9 also means to desire. God doesn’t desire a lot of things that happened in the Bible and since creation, but they happened just the same. There are things God has decreed that will come to pass and there are some things He desires that do not.
But if God desires for the timeline to go in a certain direction ...what prevents Him from getting His desire ? Is there an overriding "destiny" for our universe that supersedes God's Will ? And who or what would dictate that destiny? I dont believe that God's will would have to take a backseat to a secondary (more tragic) destiny that demands that many should perish and (contrary to 2 Peter) NOT come to repentance.

So Universalists/ Calvinists than have to explain the multiple references to Hell in the Bible (and there are many). Just as you note that the word "will" may have a slightly different meaning than what most people assume....so does the word "Hell" have a slightly different meaning...especially since it seems breaks down into 3 different root words. Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus (which is a kind of "Hell" that is only mentioned in 2nd Peter 2:4 ) In addition to these three types of Hell, there is also the Lake of Fire (which is only referenced in Revelation).

To explain why the different types of Hell are not meant to be permanent would take a long and detailed explanation....but the first and perhaps most important key to the explanation is understanding that EVERYONE seemed to go to Hell (Hades/ Sheol) under the Old Covenant (before Christ's death. The Bible seems to indicate that Samuel, Abraham, King Saul, King David, Saul's two sons all descended into Hades after their death. It seems to be the case that NO ONE went to Heaven (with the possible exception of Elijah who was taken up in a flaming Chariot...a special circumstance by any metric).

It also seems to be the case that this all changed when Christ came to earth...initiating #1. the "War in Heaven" wherein the Devil is cast out of Heaven (Revelation 12 and Luke 10:18) and #2. the "Harrowing of Hell" wherein Christ led prisoners (both sinners and saints as we see in 1st Peter 3:19-20). I assert that the "Harrowing of Hell" was the end of Hell....happening in concert with Christ's death.

And then when we look at the immediate aftermath of the crucifixion...Christ says to the thief who is dying by His side- "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." This may be the first example of the new status quo (under the New Covenant)...EVERYONE goes to Heaven (including the Thief who was not baptized and presumably never said the Sinner's Prayer).

To then get into the other three Hells- Gehenna, Tartarus (a prison for Angels) and the Lake of Fire...we would have to get into a much longer , much more complicated discussion...but this is exactly the kind of theology that we are discussing in our film and would LOVE to discuss on any Podcasts and/or Radio Shows that are open to theological discussions. Anyone who is interested in opening up this kind of discourse, please feel free to message me (here on Christian Forums or through my email - whitegardenia1955@gmail.com )

 
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white gardenia

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Yes that makes sense. He said His will is for everyone to be saved, so it would have to follow logically that if our fates are predestined according to His will then all will be saved in the end. That ‘s easier to digest than the thought of babies suffering in hell. You should post in the Controversial Theology Forum.
Yes that is a great idea...I may try to post this in the Controversial Theology Forum later this week :thumbsup:
 
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BNR32FAN

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But if God desires for the timeline to go in a certain direction ...what prevents Him from getting His desire ? Is there an overriding "destiny" for our universe that supersedes God's Will ? And who or what would dictate that destiny? I dont believe that God's will would have to take a backseat to a secondary (more tragic) destiny that demands that many should perish and (contrary to 2 Peter) NOT come to repentance.
These questions aren’t hard to answer. Why was this world created in the first place? The answer to all your questions correlates to the answer to this question. This world was created to cultivate people who would love God. Love cannot be forced or coerced it must be given freely in order to be genuine and to be of any significant value. So our free choice to either love God or reject Him is His will because otherwise our love would not be genuine or of any value if it was not given freely of our own choice and affection towards Him. The scriptures give numerous examples indicating this. John 15:1-7 Jesus tells His faithful 11 apostles to remain in Him. The reason He said this is because they were capable of choosing not to. 2 Timothy 2:12 Paul wrote to Timothy telling him that if they were to deny Christ He would deny them. Again this indicates that they were capable of denying Christ resulting in Christ denying them before The Father on Judgement Day. Romans 2:4-5 God is leading these people to repentance but because of their own stubbornness they are subject to receive the wrath of God on Judgement Day. So while God is capable of controlling our choices the scriptures make it clear that He has decided not to exercise that ability because doing so would undermine the whole purpose of creating this world in the first place. Calvinists typically don’t contemplate the idea that God’s plan involves Him not actively controlling every aspect which is why they struggle so much with contradictory theology.
 
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So Universalists/ Calvinists than have to explain the multiple references to Hell in the Bible (and there are many). Just as you note that the word "will" may have a slightly different meaning than what most people assume....so does the word "Hell" have a slightly different meaning...especially since it seems breaks down into 3 different root words. Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus (which is a kind of "Hell" that is only mentioned in 2nd Peter 2:4 ) In addition to these three types of Hell, there is also the Lake of Fire (which is only referenced in Revelation).
Hell is just a made up word that was used in the KJV to refer to the Lake of Fire and Hades but they’re actually two completely different places. Revelation 20:13-14 indicates that Hades and the Lake of Fire are two different places since those who were in Hades were taken out of Hades and thrown into the Lake of Fire. Hence “Hades gave up the dead”.

“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20‬:‭13‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Gehenna was used as an illustration of the Lake of Fire by Jesus and again in the KJV was translated to Hell, Hades was a place of torment in Sheol where the wicked went after they died to suffer in torment while they waited for Judgement Day.
 
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BNR32FAN

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To explain why the different types of Hell are not meant to be permanent would take a long and detailed explanation....but the first and perhaps most important key to the explanation is understanding that EVERYONE seemed to go to Hell (Hades/ Sheol) under the Old Covenant (before Christ's death.
I’m not familiar with these passages. Sheol is separate into two different places. One is Abraham’s Bosom where the righteous went to await Jesus’ crucifixion and the other is Hades where the wicked go to await Judgement Day.
 
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BNR32FAN

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It also seems to be the case that this all changed when Christ came to earth...initiating #1. the "War in Heaven" wherein the Devil is cast out of Heaven (Revelation 12 and Luke 10:18) and #2. the "Harrowing of Hell" wherein Christ led prisoners (both sinners and saints as we see in 1st Peter 3:19-20). I assert that the "Harrowing of Hell" was the end of Hell....happening in concert with Christ's death.
Revelation 12 is a foretelling of future events not past events. It’s a prophecy not a record of past events. Luke 10:18 is referring to a past event that took place before His ministry, it actually took place before creation.

““Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared. You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you. By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire. Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I put you before kings, That they may see you. By the multitude of your iniquities, In the unrighteousness of your trade You profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you. All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will cease to be forever.” ’ ””
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭28‬:‭12‬-‭19‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

1 Peter 3:19 doesn’t give enough information to formulate a doctrine or a theory. It doesn’t say that everyone was taken out of Hades or anyone for that matter, it just says He went and preached to spirits in prison. If everyone was removed from Hades at that time then no one would be removed from Hades and cast into the Lake of Fire on Judgement Day like Revelation 20 says will happen.
 
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BNR32FAN

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To then get into the other three Hells- Gehenna, Tartarus (a prison for Angels) and the Lake of Fire...we would have to get into a much longer , much more complicated discussion...but this is exactly the kind of theology that we are discussing in our film and would LOVE to discuss on any Podcasts and/or Radio Shows that are open to theological discussions. Anyone who is interested in opening up this kind of discourse, please feel free to message me (here on Christian Forums or through my email - whitegardenia1955@gmail.com )
I prefer not to give out my email but I would be happy to discuss the topic here in CF.
 
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Chris V++

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I haven’t followed all the comments thoroughly but I get the impression people are thinking the op is a Calvinist. I think the argument he is making is that,’ ifCalvanism as it’s understood is true, then everyone goes to Heaven.’ He is pointing out a fallacy in that denominations thinking- not that all Calvinists think that way, but I’ve had Calvinists argue hell might have babies and not all babies are innocent and you can sort of tell with some babies. No joke. And that seems to sync with the idea of predestination.
 
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white gardenia

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Revelation 12 is a foretelling of future events not past events. It’s a prophecy not a record of past events. Luke 10:18 is referring to a past event that took place before His ministry, it actually took place before creation.

““Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared. You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you. By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire. Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I put you before kings, That they may see you. By the multitude of your iniquities, In the unrighteousness of your trade You profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you. All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will cease to be forever.” ’ ””
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭28‬:‭12‬-‭19‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

1 Peter 3:19 doesn’t give enough information to formulate a doctrine or a theory. It doesn’t say that everyone was taken out of Hades or anyone for that matter, it just says He went and preached to spirits in prison. If everyone was removed from Hades at that time then no one would be removed from Hades and cast into the Lake of Fire on Judgement Day like Revelation 20 says will happen.

Revelation is one of the most interesting books in the Bible. I do believe it is predicting future events....But it seems to shift forward and backwards in time. Revelation 2-3 is clearly referencing past events....and Revelation 12 also seems to be referring to Mary and Jesus (the "rod of iron" is often thought to be a reference to Christ ...and to Psalm 2:9)

12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

And if the above passage is about Jesus...then it would make perfect sense that Satan is expelled from Heaven thanks to Christ's mission on earth. The story of Satan/Lucifer falling from Heaven AT THE DAWN OF TIME does not seem to be in the King James Bible (and may be heavily derived from the books of Enoch). The fall happening at the dawn of time does not seem to fit with the rest of the King James Bible....since we see that Satan is wandering around Heaven in the Book of Job. The timeline seems to be that Satan had access to Heaven until Christ came to earth and changed the status quo...Revelation 12 seems to detail the The War in Heaven that came about through the Child (Jesus)...and this also seems to run concurrent with Christ seeing Satan fall from the sky in Luke 10: 18

Which is all to say- Christ's Death had much much more significance than people might have thought. I believe His death effectively ended Hell....effectively caused Satan to be barred from Heaven (and ended his role as accuser of men) ...and also allowed humans (ALL humans) to go to Heaven.

But just out of curosity....if Revelation 12 is not about Jesus and Mary...what do you think it is referring to ?
 
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white gardenia

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I’m not familiar with these passages. Sheol is separate into two different places. One is Abraham’s Bosom where the righteous went to await Jesus’ crucifixion and the other is Hades where the wicked go to await Judgement Day.
My understanding is that Hades and Sheol are the same thing...I think that Hades is the Greek word and Sheol is the Hebrew word. But Gehenna and Tartarus seem to be completely different terms. For instance, Tartarus seems to be clearly delineated as a prison for errant angels that exists after the "Harrowing of Hell"( Tartarus is described in 2nd Peter 2:4 as a place of "gloom" but not necessarily a place of flames or torment).

And yes, as you note, "Abraham's Bosom" is completely supported by Scripture. It was the place where the righteous were shielded from the full horrors of Hades/Sheol. But it seemed to be in the same basic place (remember that Lazarus and Abraham were close enough to the Rich Man to see his suffering and have a detailed conversation with him). When Samuel was raised from the dead (and its heavily implied that he came "up" from Hell) he warns Saul that "to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me". And its unlikely that Saul was in God's favor since Samuel had just informed him that "the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy (1st Samuel 28) So we can see a pretty consistent view of the afterlife under the Old Covenant...EVERYONE went to Hell.

Here is an excellent website for breaking down the different root words for Hell (although I probably disagree with their views on Hell..they are probably more in a agreement with your views than mine)-

 
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Revelation is one of the most interesting books in the Bible. I do believe it is predicting future events....But it seems to shift forward and backwards in time. Revelation 2-3 is clearly referencing past events....and Revelation 12 also seems to be referring to Mary and Jesus (the "rod of iron" is often thought to be a reference to Christ ...and to Psalm 2:9)

12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

And if the above passage is about Jesus...then it would make perfect sense that Satan is expelled from Heaven thanks to Christ's mission on earth. The story of Satan/Lucifer falling from Heaven AT THE DAWN OF TIME does not seem to be in the King James Bible (and may be heavily derived from the books of Enoch). The fall happening at the dawn of time does not seem to fit with the rest of the King James Bible....since we see that Satan is wandering around Heaven in the Book of Job. The timeline seems to be that Satan had access to Heaven until Christ came to earth and changed the status quo...Revelation 12 seems to detail the The War in Heaven that came about through the Child (Jesus)...and this also seems to run concurrent with Christ seeing Satan fall from the sky in Luke 10: 18

Which is all to say- Christ's Death had much much more significance than people might have thought. I believe His death effectively ended Hell....effectively caused Satan to be barred from Heaven (and ended his role as accuser of men) ...and also allowed humans (ALL humans) to go to Heaven.

But just out of curosity....if Revelation 12 is not about Jesus and Mary...what do you think it is referring to ?
Ezekiel 28 makes it clear that satan’s fall took place long before Christ’s ministry. I don’t know who the woman is in Revelation 12, I have a tendency to refrain from making assumptions about ambiguous prophetic passages. In the beginning of chapter 4 the scriptures make it very clear that everything that comes after is prophetic.

“After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4‬:‭1‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
 
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