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Part of a thread I was part of discussed translation from one language to another. In this case, it was Spanish to English.

In Spanish, "como se llama" means "what's your name". Or does it?

Literally translated, it says, "How do you call yourself". (With the word order changed!) Como = how; se = yourself; llama = call. Of course nobody says that (or it could be interpreted differently if you use a cell phone! 8^) This is an example of formal, or word-for-word translation.

Functional translation emphasizes the meaning of the words, so it's much more accurate and meaningful to interpret "como se llama" as "what's your name". That is the standard question asked when you meet somebody for the first time; the strange-sounding "how do you call yourself" isn't.

Applying these principles to Bible translations, it is obvious that "literal" or formal translations such as the King James version can be very confusing and easily misinterpreted. As shown above, the literal translation to "How do you call yourself" sounds very odd to the hearer. That same principle applies to the KJV and other formal translations: the language is strange and and is easily misinterpreted by the reader/hearer. For example, a Bible verse I often use as an example is Luke 14:10...

"But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when
he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher:.
then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat
with thee."

That sounds very strange to modern English speakers/readers, as indeed it should, since nobody speaks or writes like that in the 21st Century. Indeed, Luke is known for his excellent Greek and that was undoubtedly was not how he phrased it.

Here is how the very popular NIV translates this same verse...

"But when you are invited, take the lowest place, so that when your host comes, he will say to you, ‘Friend, move up to a better place.’ Then you will be honored in the presence of all the other guests."

It is immediately obvious that this rendition is much clearer and more easily understood, the goal of functional translations. There are no mental gymnastics involved to determine what the verse means. And there was no need for mental gymnastics in the minds of those who heard/read the original.

It's time to change the emphasis of Bible translation to give the clearest understanding of what the Biblical authors meant in their writings. Rendering God's word in some antiquated, confusing, obsolete language is a disservice to those who want to clearly understand what God's word says and means. The KJV was fine 400+ years ago when it was translated for the people of that time. The same principle of clarity and understanding should be applied to the modern, functional translations that we use today.

If the meaning isn't clear the translation has failed.
 

Andrewn

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It is immediately obvious that this rendition is much clearer and more easily understood, the goal of functional translations. There are no mental gymnastics involved to determine what the verse means. And there was no need for mental gymnastics in the minds of those who heard/read the original. It's time to change the emphasis of Bible translation to give the clearest understanding of what the Biblical authors meant in their writings.
Here are my 2 cents :).

1) You compared KJV to NIV. KJV is not representative of modern formal translations. The MEV, a very formal translation that we discussed in the other thread is quite readable:

Luke 14:10 But when you are invited, go and sit down in the lowest seat, so that when he who invited you comes, he may say to you, ‘Friend, go up higher.’ Then you will have respect in the presence of those who sit at dinner with you.

2) No formal translation would render "como se llama" into "How do you call yourself". Only an interlinear would do that.

3) Functional translations definitely have their place and are nice to read in the OT for example.

4) In the NT, especially some of Paul's difficult passages, functional translations tend to interpret the text. This can be good if they have the correct interpretation. And it can be bad if they have the wrong interpretation. And in both cases they are not telling you what the Bible actually says.

5) Reading and comparing several translations side-by-side at the same time is always best.
 
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Radagast

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2) No formal translation would render "como se llama" into "How do you call yourself". Only an interlinear would do that.

3) Functional translations definitely have their place and are nice to read in the OT for example.

4) In the NT, especially some of Paul's difficult passages, functional translations tend to interpret the text. This can be good if they have the correct interpretation. And it can be bad if they have the wrong interpretation. And in both cases they are not telling you what the Bible actually says.

Translations fall on a spectrum.

Completely "literal" translations are impossible, because there often is not a direct English equivalent for a Greek word or phrase. Every translation requires some interpretation. It really becomes a question of how much.
 
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Radagast

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To pick an example, consider John 2:1-4:

Καὶ (And) τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῇ τρίτῃ (on the third day) γάμος (a wedding) ἐγένετο (happened) ἐν Κανὰ (in Cana) τῆς Γαλιλαίας (of Galilee), καὶ ἦν ἡ μήτηρ τοῦ Ἰησοῦ ἐκεῖ (and the mother of the Jesus was there)· ἐκλήθη δὲ (and called/invited) καὶ (also) ὁ Ἰησοῦς (the Jesus) καὶ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ (and the disciples of him) εἰς τὸν γάμον (into the wedding). καὶ οἶνον οὐκ εἶχον (and wine they had not), ὅτι συνετελέσθη ὁ οἶνος τοῦ γάμου (because finished was the wine of the wedding). εἶτα λέγει ἡ μήτηρ τοῦ Ἰησοῦ πρὸς αὐτόν (then says the mother of the Jesus to him)· οἶνος οὐκ ἔστιν (wine they do not have). λέγει αὐτῇ ὁ Ἰησοῦς (says to her the Jesus)· τί ἐμοὶ καὶ σοί (what to me and you), γύναι; (woman?) οὔπω ἥκει ἡ ὥρα μου (not yet come the hour of me).

A fairly loose translation would be the NLT:

(1. delete the Semitic starting "and") The next day (2. provide an interpretation of "the third day, based on the text") there was (3. reorder words and use "there was") a wedding celebration (4. "wedding celebration" makes the meaning clearer) in the village (5. add "village" for clarity) of Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ (6. no "the" for English names) mother was there, and Jesus and his disciples were also invited to the celebration. The wine supply ran out during the festivities (7. completely rewrite the Greek to gave an English phrase with the same meaning), so Jesus’ mother told (8. change the Greek "narrative present" to past tense) him, “They have no more wine.” “Dear (9. add "Dear" to soften "Woman") woman, that’s not our problem,” (10. completely rewrite the Greek to gave an English phrase with the same meaning) Jesus replied. “My time has not yet come.”

A so-called "formal" translation would be the ESV, which makes six of those ten changes (the MEV is almost identical to the ESV), so that the ESV and MEV are closer to the NLT than they are to any kind of interlinear (as, indeed, they should be):

(1. delete the Semitic starting "and") On the third day there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee (3. reorder words and use "there was"), and the mother of Jesus (6. no "the" for English names) was there. Jesus also was invited to the wedding with his disciples. 3 When the wine ran out (7. completely rewrite the Greek to gave an English phrase with the same meaning), the mother of Jesus said (8. change the Greek "narrative present" to past tense) to him, “They have no wine.” And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does this have to do with me? (10. completely rewrite the Greek to gave an English phrase with the same meaning) My hour has not yet come.”
 
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Which is freer: paraphrase or free style? What type do you consider The NIV, NLT, The Message and The Passion Translation?
My go to is a literal bible such as the ESV or NASV.
On line I like bible hub as there are about 25 translations there.

When you move into the paraphrase they often do some tinkering to make it flow better in the. English. The freestyle tries to make it written on a 5th grade level.

The problem is the further you get away from the literal word for word the translations begin to insert bias.
 
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My go to is a literal bible such as the ESV or NASV.
On line I like bible hub as there are about 25 translations there.

When you move into the paraphrase they often do some tinkering to make it flow better in the. English. The freestyle tries to make it written on a 5th grade level.

The problem is the further you get away from the literal word for word the translations begin to insert bias.

I disagree. Functional translations are not paraphrases; they concentrate on the ideas expressed in the early texts, which is IMHO the purpose of translation. The early cultures that understood the ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek had a very different way of thinking, hearing, and understanding the Scriptures than we do today. The purpose of any translation is to communicate God's message to humanity as clearly as possible. There must be a balance between the precise words written and the thought the writer was trying to communicate.

"The freestyle tries to make it written on a 5th grade level" is not true. BTW, the King James version was written so that even the 17th Century ploughboy would understand it.

"The problem is the further you get away from the literal word for word the translations begin to insert bias" is absolutely wrong. Functional translations are created to communicate the exact meaning of the source documents; there are all kinds of protections against translators' bias. Since all translations must convert one language to another, even the supposedly "literal" translations are not free from the interpretations of the translators, based on the receptor language and culture.
 
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