Formal debate

[StJohnCalvin]

Its been a while since I have debated formally. I am wondering if anyone is going to take me up on my proposal of a formal debate of this issue: http://www.christianforums.com/t3115842

Looking forward to formal debate dialogue.

God Bless

 

[Iosias]

Its been a while since I have debated formally. I am wondering if anyone is going to take me up on my proposal of a formal debate of this issue: http://www.christianforums.com/t3115842

Looking forward to formal debate dialogue.

God Bless

I recently wrote to the Open Bible Trust who are ultradispensationalists about their errors. Below is the content of that letter:

I reread This we Believe and The Church! When did it begin? and have decided against rejoining the mailing list for the following reasons:

1. “While the one sacrifice of Christ on the cross is through God’s love and grace, it requires a response from us. “God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). God’s gift to us is that through His grace He requires only our faith in Christ for salvation and life.” (This we Believe)

This is clearly synergistic and implies that we cooperate with God in our salvation. The truth is that God is “the author and finisher of our faith” (Hebrews 12:2) and faith is itself a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8). Our faith is not meritorious but is rather the hand that receives Christ by whose death we are saved. God’s gift to us is a complete atonement in Christ which he gives to us by giving to his elect justifying faith. Hence “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified” (Romans 8:29-39). Those God has chosen to be saved (Acts 13:48; 2 Thessalonians 2:13) he gives faith. This is grace, that to those who were “dead in trespasses and sins” are regenerated by God, given faith by God, saved to the uttermost by God.

1. “The kingdom gospel was God’s grace plus the works of the Law for righteousness.” (The Church! When did it begin?) Regarding Matthew 19:16-17 and Ephesians 2:8-9 “the issue is clearly salvation and the answer is to keep the law and do good works. You must do something! Paul’s statement in Ephesians is just as clearly the opposite of what Christ said as possible, good works in his statement are not what lead to salvation.” (The Church! When did it begin)

These statements I find somewhat worrying because they advocate two ways of salvation. A ‘Jewish’ gospel of faith plus good works and a ‘Pauline’ gospel of grace alone. Yet this goes against the clear teaching of Scripture.

i. “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” Romans 3:20, 28
ii. “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” Galatians 2:16
iii. “But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.” Galatians 3:11

From the very beginning there has been only one gospel which we find starts in Genesis 3:15 “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.” This we see also in Galatians 3:8 “And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.”

Hence also the following: John 5: 46 “For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.” Luke 24:27 “And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.” Hence Paul stated in Acts 24:14 “But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:”

What is Matthew 19:16-17 about? Christ said “if thou wilt enter into life keep the commandments” in order to show, that it is impossible to enter into, or obtain eternal life by the works of the law, since no man can perfectly keep it; and so His aim was to unhinge this man from off the legal foundation on which he was, that he might drop all his dependencies on doing good things, and come to Christ for righteousness and life. Hence by the Law comes the knowledge of sin, the Law a divine mirror in which we see just how far we fall short of God’s glory and so see our need for Christ.

1. “No Law-keeping or good works on our part could save us from sin and death and none need be, or can be, added to Christ’s all sufficient sacrifice. “No one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the Law” (Romans 3:20). There is a place for works, but they come after faith in Him and His “once for all” sacrifice on our behalf. James wrote, “I will show you my faith by what I do” (2:18). Good works are the evidence of our new life in Christ, a life which was accepted from Him by faith.” (This we Believe) “In Scripture, faith and deeds are inextricably linked together, one with the other.” “A saving faith, then, is one that manifests itself in good deeds. James 2:22, referring to Abraham, says, ‘You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.’” “…it is of utmost importance that there is evidence of our faith in the form of good works.” (This we Believe)

Now these statements contradicts point 2 above which sees two ways of salvation. Compare “The kingdom gospel was God’s grace plus the works of the Law for righteousness” with “No one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the Law” (Romans 3:20)! So it seems that OBT have published The Church! When did it begin? even though it disagrees with This we Believe. Now this statement (4) holds the truth in balance that ‘faith alone saves but faith is never alone’ and this is how we ought reconcile Paul and James. Never have works contributed to our justification.

Yours sincerely,

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Hi AV1611,
If I remember correctly, you used to be an ultradispensationalist a few years ago. I know you've moved away from that position. If you're ok with it, I'd be very interested in the details of how you changed your views.

Lamorak Des Galis

 

[Iosias]

Hi AV1611,
If I remember correctly, you used to be an ultradispensationalist a few years ago. I know you've moved away from that position. If you're ok with it, I'd be very interested in the details of how you changed your views.

Lamorak Des Galis

Technically I was more of a Mid-Acts dispensationalist than an ultradispensationalist but sure I will explain.

Very basiclly I saw the delightful unity of the Scriptures. There is no justification for taking a huge knife and slicing up the Word of God rather (as I think Augustine said) if I were to see contradictions I would rather confess my ignorance and take up more study than to say the Scripture contradicts itself.

The dispensationalist method can say it has found 'solutions' to the supposed contradictions but in fact they have not, they have invented a system to divide up the Bible. The best example is the supposed contradiction between Paul and James but the solution is a rather simplistic one, instead of saying Paul was Body truth and James was Kingdom truth he who sees the continuity/unity of the Scriptures harmonises them as many have done throughout the ages in saying "faith alone saves but faith is never alone" i.e. a true and living faith produces good works, hence the import of Ephesians 2:8-10 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

The OT is like the bulb and the stem, the NT is the flowering glory of the OT - Christ!

But what really started me questioning the validity of dividing the people of God was the following verses:

Romans 2:28-29 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Galatians 3:16, 29 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Philippians 3:3 "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."

 

[ddub85]

@ AV1611

But what really started me questioning the validity of dividing the people of God was the following verses:

Romans 2:28-29 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Do you take this verse to say that all who are circumcised of the heart are Jews? If so, then you believe there are no Gentiles in Christ, would that be correct? All in Christ are Jews, and there are no Gentiles. Is that how you would see it? If not, please explain how you see it.
In this verse, Paul is addressing Jews, and saying those Jews who are circumcised of the heart are the true Jews. I substantiate this by saying Gentiles aren't included, as we are only used as comparisons throughout the verse.

Galatians 3:16, 29 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

This verse says all of the promises are to the seed. And in that seed, there are both Jews and Gentiles. Paul also says the seed will receive what they've been allotted (i.e. fellowheirs), denoting that all of the promises don't go to all of the seed, but we receive what we've been allotted.
I think you're saying that all of the promises go to all. If so, how do you explain Paul's point about fellowheirs?

Philippians 3:3 "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."

Is he speaking of circumcision of the heart, or of the flesh here? I contend it's of the heart, which would include the seed, the entire body of Christ. We are all circumcised of the heart, not the flesh. But it is the the Jews only who are called the circumcision of the flesh. We Gentiles aren't included in that. The connection to circumcision and Jew is of the flesh, not of the heart. We Gentiles are included in the circumcision of the heart AS Gentiles.
I'd love to hear your thoughts.

God Bless!