Formal Debate Peanut Gallery - Atheistic Secular Humanism...

[quatona]

Thanks for the reply quatona. It seems that the quote button is only not working on this forum as the other ones worked earlier tonight.

Sorry if I harped on but I wasn't intending to come across that way. As you said we have to be practical and show how one way can work and not the other. Thats why I was saying that we cant put any religion in charge because it will be rejected. Not just rejected but rebelled against. So this is why I was emphasizing the best way was to live the example of Jesus as Christians. Though it wont change the world overnight it will make a different one by one in little ways. Theres no sense talking about it you have to walk the walk. I try to do this in my work and life. I help people at my local community center when they have problems. They dont know that I am a Christian and my intentions are not to preach and get them to convert. Its just to help them. I have to be practical and help them with their daily problems and find the best solutions. I hope that Jesus will shine from me as an example and this may spread the love. But there's no sense preaching to someone when they need food or a roof over their head.

I agree with you in that living up to one´s convictions is more effective in creating the world one would like to have than preaching one´s convictions.

It is a big problem that we all face and how to come together to find solutions and make things happen. Thats why I was trying to give some practical solutions to how belief can work to solve the worlds problems.
As I said we have to put people first before money and our comforts.

While I personally agree with this approach, there will always be those who insist that money must be put first (in fact, current social systems define themselves largely by their approach to economics).
Thus, this too would go down as your or mine personal wish - not a means of creating a society under the premise that people have different wishes and ideas.

This is hard as people want things and this world is based on this. You are right i that you cant make one persons views about what they believe be taken over others and everyone needs to be considered. Thats why I was saying that this is not the way to go with being a Christian. Its living the example and showing the way to go and everyone doing their little part to help. Keep chipping away and hoping it begins to grow. I dont believe its unreal or a dream and I'm out there doing my part.

Well, I understand that this is your personal way of trying to make your convictions influential (and it is mine as well).
However, this still doesn´t address what I understood to be the question: What political/social system accounts best for the diversity of views within that society?
Since, if I understood your former posts correctly, you were attributing the things you dislike in your society on the fact that it is a pluralistic one, I disagree. I think you are misattributing the problems. The fact that there are aspects in this society that you don´t like must be attributed to the fact that some people want it that way. Nonetheless, a comparably permissive, tolerant and pluralistic seems to be a good way of dealing with the fact of diversity.

 

[Loudmouth]

Sorry if I harped on but I wasn't intending to come across that way. As you said we have to be practical and show how one way can work and not the other. Thats why I was saying that we cant put any religion in charge because it will be rejected. Not just rejected but rebelled against. So this is why I was emphasizing the best way was to live the example of Jesus as Christians.

How did you determine that living as christians will lead to moral and ethical behavior?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Final post is up: #9

 

[stevevw]

How did you determine that living as christians will lead to moral and ethical behavior?

Because a Christian is a person who is born again. There is a battle within all of us between our sinful natures or the flesh and our spiritual nature which is the knowledge of God we have in our hearts. Satan wants to be God and wants us to follow his ways. So there is a battle within us and in this world. Jesus says that heaven is within us. The bible says that all know God from His creation and the invisible qualities that govern life and existence.

So when a person comes to God and accepts Christ into his heart they are transformed into a new person and are now living according to the spirit of God (the Holy Spirit). They get a God conscience and they will cease sinning or cannot live in sin anymore. As the bible says the spirit of God cannot live with sin and sin cannot be within a person who is born again of the spirit of God. A person can either serve the flesh which is living in sin or serve God. But you cannot serve two masters at once. So a person who is born again as a Christian is serving God and living according to the spirit of God through Jesus Christ.

So they have a God conscience and everything they do is to please God. They reject sin and they become aware of their sin and unholiness before God. They will sin less and less and be striving and growing to become more like Jesus every day. It doesn't mean they are perfect and they wont sin as their weak sinful flesh can cause them to fail. But they will be sensitive to this and be repenting and trying to do it less and stop sinning.

Romans 6:4
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

 

[stevevw]

quatona

While I personally agree with this approach, there will always be those who insist that money must be put first (in fact, current social systems define themselves largely by their approach to economics).
Thus, this too would go down as your or mine personal wish - not a means of creating a society under the premise that people have different wishes and ideas.

I realize this and I use to think the same. We are so entrenched in this system that we feel we would be lost without it. But in the end it will be our undoing and we will have to come up with another way of doing things anyway. Its like in Greece when the last GFC hit they went broke and people lost their savings. Money meant nothing and all that was important was to have the basics in life let alone a mansion of luxury holiday. So a loaf of bread could be more valuable them gold. The US just averted a similar thing but really only put off the inevitable. They just borrowed more to pay for more borrowed money. So we are digging a deeper and deeper hole.

How deep do you think we can go before it all unravels and collapses. If eventually a country comes to a point where they have to acknowledge that they are so deep in debt that they will never be able to even service the interest or never pay the debt back what does that do. It means that creditors know that what is owed mean nothing because they will never get it back. Then suddenly all that past debt becomes of little value. Its like when a person goes bankrupt. It just wipes the slate and you cant get blood out of a stone.

We keep making the same mistakes in a cycle of boom and bust and eventually it wont work anymore. So we will need another system of doing things. Whether it is some sort of trading or barter system I dont know. Some say it will be like a form of communism where everyone will have a ID number and only be able to get things that way. But any system that allows some to make money off others poverty will not succeed in the end. While as a decent society we can have some get so fat that they will have heart attacks while others die from not even a grain of rice will fail. How can we throw tons of waste food away because of market pressure while we neglect others to die of starvation is a doomed system. The No1 thing should be peoples lives and any system that doesn't do that wont work in the end.

Well, I understand that this is your personal way of trying to make your convictions influential (and it is mine as well).
However, this still doesn´t address what I understood to be the question: What political/social system accounts best for the diversity of views within that society?

Well I think we can all agree that to feed others and save them from starvation is a simple truth that we ll agree on. The problem is its not just about having a pluralistic society. Its about giving up some of our comforts and pleasures for the sake of others. Its a bit like Live aid worked but on an everyday basis. We all seen the need and we all came together. But it was a one off thing and not the norm. We have to go beyond that to make it a way of life. But people have got use to think of themselves and turning a blind eye to those in need. We will blame them for their plight and make reasons why we shouldn't have to affect our life for others. We could feed the world if we all lived a simple life without all the trappings we have become use to and demand.

Since, if I understood your former posts correctly, you were attributing the things you dislike in your society on the fact that it is a pluralistic one, I disagree. I think you are misattributing the problems. The fact that there are aspects in this society that you don´t like must be attributed to the fact that some people want it that way. Nonetheless, a comparably permissive, tolerant and pluralistic seems to be a good way of dealing with the fact of diversity.

I am not sure. As I said we all know and realize that it is not good for some to suffer and die. There are many reasons that it happens. But we seem to be in a vacuum where we only focus on what we want. We have got caught up in keeping up with the Jones and chasing the dream that has been sold to us. But at the same time I think deep down we realize that this is not the true way to peace and happiness. In fact in some ways it can do the opposite of what we are looking for.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Concerning Freodins final post ; while I greatly appreciate Freodin being by Debate Partner on this important issue, it is obvious that his final 'rebuttal' was woefully limited and lacking . It is very difficult to deny that Secular Humanism has devastatingly impacted western Society when looking at the internal evidence by the very words the Manifesto Authors and how we groom young people coming up thru the liberal Humanistic Public School System to be self serving Sexual Addicts of the worse kind. Further, he answered to NONE of the many questions that I raised concerning Humanisms formal affirmations in my final post , not one , which is very very telling. In fact, his final post was THE shortest rebuttal-attempt ive ever received in any Debate ive engaged in.

As for the excuses of pregnancies out of wedlock due to Secular Humanisms sexual 'freedom' mantra , the reason unwed births may be down (if that is true at all) is because walk in abortions are up --- I can see drive-thru abortions becoming popularized if this Humanist trend continues / the reason America has failed with abstinence programs isn't because abstinence isn't the answer...rather , that Secular Humanism thru the mass media and public schools has brainwashed young people into a 'gotta have it' sexually illicit Lifestyle which backfires on them with unwanted pregnancies and/or STD contraction now at a CDC reported rate of 1 in every 3 Adult Americans / and the desire for proven healthy lifestyles which is what the Christian Faith offers for ones ultimate protection simply aren't wanted because Western Countries no longer desire the God of the Universe meddling with their affairs but want themselves as their own 'god' --- 'MAN at the center of all things' ---- the precise adage that Secular Humanism pronounces in all their formal written material.

The only hope for any country who has embraced Secular Humanism is for it to return to making Self #2 and God his rightful place of #1 , but knowing Mankind, it will remain on the road to moral implosion of horrendous extremes to come .

End.

 

[Freodin]

"we groom young people coming up thru the liberal Humanistic Public School System to be self serving Sexual Addicts of the worse kind"... but of course you are not villifying secular humanists at all.

I took part in this debate, because I wanted to see what kind of arguments you could bring up to defend such a scape-goating position, but I should not have bothered. It is just the same kind of empty, hate-filled and self-righteous propaganda that your kind always uses.

But of course you are totally innocent and only use facts, like how humanists molest children. Joseph Goebbels would have been proud of you!

The shameful behaviour and remorseless insults that you and your ilk are presenting is one of the main reasons why I would never consider Christianity, even if it would make sense to me.

I should have known better before - I definitly know better now. This was the last time I wasted time on you.

 

[Loudmouth]

Because a Christian is a person who is born again. There is a battle within all of us between our sinful natures or the flesh and our spiritual nature which is the knowledge of God we have in our hearts. Satan wants to be God and wants us to follow his ways. So there is a battle within us and in this world. Jesus says that heaven is within us. The bible says that all know God from His creation and the invisible qualities that govern life and existence.

So when a person comes to God and accepts Christ into his heart they are transformed into a new person and are now living according to the spirit of God (the Holy Spirit). They get a God conscience and they will cease sinning or cannot live in sin anymore. As the bible says the spirit of God cannot live with sin and sin cannot be within a person who is born again of the spirit of God. A person can either serve the flesh which is living in sin or serve God. But you cannot serve two masters at once. So a person who is born again as a Christian is serving God and living according to the spirit of God through Jesus Christ.

So they have a God conscience and everything they do is to please God. They reject sin and they become aware of their sin and unholiness before God. They will sin less and less and be striving and growing to become more like Jesus every day. It doesn't mean they are perfect and they wont sin as their weak sinful flesh can cause them to fail. But they will be sensitive to this and be repenting and trying to do it less and stop sinning.

Romans 6:4
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

You still haven't answered the basic question. How does living as a christian lead to a moral lifestyle?

All you have really said is that living as a christian results in you being obedient to what the Bible says. You need to show how being obedient leads to being moral.

 

[Loudmouth]

Concerning Freodins final post ; while I greatly appreciate Freodin being by Debate Partner on this important issue, it is obvious that his final 'rebuttal' was woefully limited and lacking . It is very difficult to deny that Secular Humanism has devastatingly impacted western Society when looking at the internal evidence by the very words the Manifesto Authors and how we groom young people coming up thru the liberal Humanistic Public School System to be self serving Sexual Addicts of the worse kind.

Empty accusations, and no argument. Par for the course.

The only hope for any country who has embraced Secular Humanism is for it to return to making Self #2 and God his rightful place of #1 , but knowing Mankind, it will remain on the road to moral implosion of horrendous extremes to come .

End.

The worst moral conditions existed when people described America as being more christian. This is as free as this country has ever been. Discrimination against minorities is at an all time low. Discrimination against women is at an all time low. Theistic nutters view this as the moral implosion. If this is an implosion, then sign me up for more.

 

[stevevw]

You still haven't answered the basic question. How does living as a christian lead to a moral lifestyle?

All you have really said is that living as a christian results in you being obedient to what the Bible says. You need to show how being obedient leads to being moral.

You didn't understand what I was saying about being born again. Its not being just being obedient to what God says. Its becoming a new and different person who wants to be obedient. We cant do it ourselves and so we are transformed into someone who can be moral according to God. Being born again changes a person from their old sinful self to a new person living in the spirit of God. Its not a case of trying to be obedient under your own ability. We cant be obedient to God with our own will as it is weak and subject to the flesh. The flesh are our selfish desires which pursue the things of this world. So being filled with the Holy Spirit makes a person change and so they have a new nature that is like Jesus. The old self dies with Jesus and the new self rises with Jesus as He rose from the dead.

That is what I am trying to explain to you. That accepting Christ leads you to living a moral life because you are no longer the weak sinful person. Because you dont believe in the spirit of a person you will not understand this. Paul speaks about this a lot. There is a battle of the flesh and the spirit. Most people live according to the flesh and so follow their fleshly desires. Galatians 5:19-21 The acts of the flesh are sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But living in the spirit of God you will live according to the fruits of the spirit. Galatians 5:22-2322 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

So its not a case of trying to be good yourself and following a set of do's and dont's which we will always fall short of under our own abilities. Bit is by ut accepting Jesus and being changed as a person so that it is no longer you that lives but Christ that live in you that you are able to be good and moral. You have a God conscience so are more sensitive to what is pleasing to God and want to do that. You feel uncomfortable and pricked in your conscience more by sin and therefore want to avoid it and try not to do it. But the morality of God is different to the morals that this world has. Christ is the truth and this is stated many times in the bible. The truth of man is different to the truth of God.
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

 

[Loudmouth]

You didn't understand what I was saying about being born again. Its not being just being obedient to what God says. Its becoming a new and different person who wants to be obedient. We cant do it ourselves and so we are transformed into someone who can be moral according to God.

Does being moral "according to God" result in actually being moral? How do you determine this?

That is what I am trying to explain to you. That accepting Christ leads you to living a moral life because you are no longer the weak sinful person.

How does not being sinful guarantee a moral lifestyle? There are people I consider to be moral that you would consider to be sinful. There have been many immoral things done in the name of God.

Because you dont believe in the spirit of a person you will not understand this. Paul speaks about this a lot. There is a battle of the flesh and the spirit. Most people live according to the flesh and so follow their fleshly desires. Galatians 5:19-21 The acts of the flesh are sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

People who worship idols or gods other than the God of the Bible are immoral? I don't believe that. I think people should be free to worship as they please as long as it doesn't take away freedoms from other people. I believe that someone being a Hindu does not make them immoral.

This is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

 

[stevevw]

Does being moral "according to God" result in actually being moral? How do you determine this?

Well as far as I understand a Christian is being Christ like hence Christ-ian. You have Christ living in you and being like Christ and following His teachings and example. That is the whole idea of Christianity. So look at Jesus and work it out for yourself. Did Jesus live and promote a moral life. They say a Christian is known by the fruits they bear. Just like you know a fig tree by its figs. So there should be good fruits like the fruits I mentioned before.

So you can have a religious person who claims to be saved but they dont know Christ and are hypocrites. You can tell by the way they live. Normally they are secretively doing things that are immoral or even not being what they should be as different from others in the world. In other words they just live like secular society by still allowing to party or live sexually immoral lives. You should see that a Christian stands out and they are normally helping others on the streets and dedicating their lives to God to help others. They certainly wont get caausght up in controveries or money scams, be exploiting others with suspect deals, taking care of themselves at the expense of others ect.

How does not being sinful guarantee a moral lifestyle? There are people I consider to be moral that you would consider to be sinful. There have been many immoral things done in the name of God.

The truth of God is clear. The morals are in the bible and what Christ said. So it is plain to see. But what the world thinks is good and bad is different to what God says. Secular society can justify wrong and compromise the truth through different things like justifying something to allow them to do wrong. Or blurring the lines about what is right and wrong so it makes it easier to do wrong. Or corrupting the truth with power and money. It is all subject to mans interpretation of what is right and wrong. So there is no clear standards and many different views are included which undermines any true and clear foundations.

But God through Jesus is the truth and will never change. So for example with say porn. It is justified as being an expression of a persons freedom to express themselves. This was promoted and started with the sexual revolution of the 60s and women's liberation movements and the sexual revolutions. This promoted divorce and having more than one partner and being able to have sex in anyway people wanted on the bases of it being a persons right because it was their body. Normally a contradiction to God is based on self and what self wants. Thats why we have such a selfish society.

People who worship idols or gods other than the God of the Bible are immoral? I don't believe that. I think people should be free to worship as they please as long as it doesn't take away freedoms from other people. I believe that someone being a Hindu does not make them immoral.

No there are good people and most religions have good codes of conduct. So do many other ethical codes of conduct we have in society. But they are not the truth that is of God. They maybe based on this and may produce some similar results but in the end the truth of God is everlasting and the only way that will work. Normally a lot of religions that are not based on the truth of God have a lot of secular aspects mixed in and compromise things.

But you can have good moral people who are not necessarily professing God and they are more moral than someone who says they are religious. Thats why the bible says that the first will be last and the last will be first. Because some are hypocrites and dont rally know Jesus. Jesus said that anyone who helps another and gives them food or a drink are giving me one. This is shown in the parable of the good Samaritan. So I dont set a strict criteria to judge who will be saved because many maybe not what we consider religious that are the first to be saved.

This is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

Those idols are not necessarily gods. Money and things can be idols. The basic immoral trait is selfishness I believe, So those who are unselfish and think of others are a long way towards being saved I believed. But the things of the flesh lead to the things that this world is so concerned about like self, divisions, power, pre occupation with pursuing selfish desires and passions all the time. Money can be a root of evil.

 

[Loudmouth]

Well as far as I understand a Christian is being Christ like hence Christ-ian. You have Christ living in you and being like Christ and following His teachings and example. That is the whole idea of Christianity. So look at Jesus and work it out for yourself. Did Jesus live and promote a moral life. They say a Christian is known by the fruits they bear. Just like you know a fig tree by its figs. So there should be good fruits like the fruits I mentioned before.

You are the one claiming that being a christian leads to a moral lifestyle. It is your claim, so I think you should work it out.

What criteria do you use to determine if a religion produces moral lifestyles?

So you can have a religious person who claims to be saved but they dont know Christ and are hypocrites. You can tell by the way they live. Normally they are secretively doing things that are immoral or even not being what they should be as different from others in the world. In other words they just live like secular society by still allowing to party or live sexually immoral lives. You should see that a Christian stands out and they are normally helping others on the streets and dedicating their lives to God to help others. They certainly wont get caausght up in controveries or money scams, be exploiting others with suspect deals, taking care of themselves at the expense of others ect.

You are doing things a bit backwards. You are looking to first see if someone is moral, and then you are deciding if they are christian. It would seem to me that you are able to determine morality independently of christianity.

The truth of God is clear. The morals are in the bible and what Christ said. So it is plain to see. But what the world thinks is good and bad is different to what God says.

Then how do you know what God says is moral?

But God through Jesus is the truth and will never change. So for example with say porn. It is justified as being an expression of a persons freedom to express themselves. This was promoted and started with the sexual revolution of the 60s and women's liberation movements and the sexual revolutions. This promoted divorce and having more than one partner and being able to have sex in anyway people wanted on the bases of it being a persons right because it was their body. Normally a contradiction to God is based on self and what self wants. Thats why we have such a selfish society.

You are confusing freedom with morality. They are not the same thing.

No there are good people and most religions have good codes of conduct. So do many other ethical codes of conduct we have in society. But they are not the truth that is of God. They maybe based on this and may produce some similar results but in the end the truth of God is everlasting and the only way that will work.

Based on what evidence? European nations with low rates of church attendance and christian beliefs are working great, probably better than the US. How do you explain this?

Normally a lot of religions that are not based on the truth of God have a lot of secular aspects mixed in and compromise things. But you can have good moral people who are not necessarily professing God and they are more moral than someone who says they are religious. Thats why the bible says that the first will be last and the last will be first. Because some are hypocrites and dont rally know Jesus. Jesus said that anyone who helps another and gives them food or a drink are giving me one. This is shown in the parable of the good Samaritan. So I dont set a strict criteria to judge who will be saved because many maybe not what we consider religious that are the first to be saved.

Other religions make the same claims about their gods.

Those idols are not necessarily gods. Money and things can be idols. The basic immoral trait is selfishness I believe, So those who are unselfish and think of others are a long way towards being saved I believed. But the things of the flesh lead to the things that this world is so concerned about like self, divisions, power, pre occupation with pursuing selfish desires and passions all the time. Money can be a root of evil.

If you worship another god, is that immoral?

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

You are the one claiming that being a christian leads to a moral lifestyle. It is your claim, so I think you should work it out.

What criteria do you use to determine if a religion produces moral lifestyles?



You are doing things a bit backwards. You are looking to first see if someone is moral, and then you are deciding if they are christian. It would seem to me that you are able to determine morality independently of christianity.



Then how do you know what God says is moral?



You are confusing freedom with morality. They are not the same thing.




Based on what evidence? European nations with low rates of church attendance and christian beliefs are working great, probably better than the US. How do you explain this?



Other religions make the same claims about their gods.



If you worship another god, is that immoral?

a. All your questions or at least the majority are specifically answered in this recent CF Debate Thread : http://www.christianforums.com/t7825098/

b. As to your final question...it is an act of idolatry if you worship any substitute for the real actual Creator (God) for our Universe and thus it would fall into the realm of Immorality or certainly unethical behavior ; such gods that people choose to idolize in place of the Creator fall into a number of categories such as People / Materialism / Experiences / Philosophies --- a few more common examples would be : Oneself (Narcissism) , a Loved One , a major Celebrity , love for making money, love for material acquisition , love for power - prestige - recognition , love for illicit sex , love for a Hobby , etc.... or anything that One chooses to obtain ultimate purpose, meaning, and ego fulfillment in life thru while all the while jettisoning God because he is seen as an affront and offense to ones desire for complete autonomy . This is why Secular Humanism is in direct opposition to our Theistic Personal Creator to whom we are invited to grow in knowledge of which can lead to a dynamic personal relationship thereby fulfilling our deepest desires ; Secular Humanism endorses SELF as ones own god and with that comes the devastating consequences to individuals and a Nation at large as the Formal Debate on this subject clearly showed (http://www.christianforums.com/t7841230/) because the void the Creator put in every one of us is something meant for him to only fill....and not our superficial ,ultimately worthless pursuits to find meaning. Youll never hear anyone on his deathbed proclaim : ' Gee, I wish I had just 10 more minutes to spend at the Office closing another deal ' or ' I wish I had been more assertive in trying to round up a 3-some for a superbowl of illicit sex ' . Instead emptiness, despair , hopeLESSness, fear always accompanies the lifelong Secular Humanist as he/she faces the great Foe to living ; not so for the One who was wise and trusted , enjoyed Gods presence in their lives and got their many sins forgiven by the sole sufficiency of CHrist crucified . Death to this life is simply a passageway to Ones real Home and graduation to being in the very presence of the Creator in all his fullness.

People can overtly reject God or covertly reject God by in the final analysis the end result is the same after wasting life on superficial chasing of idols. Fortunately, such People can change direction anytime during their lifetime but with life being so uncertain, the wise person doesn't wait and wait and wait. Where are you on the waiting list if I may ask ?

 

[stevevw]

You are the one claiming that being a christian leads to a moral lifestyle. It is your claim, so I think you should work it out.

Oh sorry I thought you asked how do I determine being moral as a Christian. So I was telling you how and that if you look to Jesus then you will see the example of how a Christian determines being moral.

What criteria do you use to determine if a religion produces moral lifestyles?

I believe there is a moral truth that stands true despite what religion or secular group or individual states. I believe this is written in our hearts and our conscience will determine this. But people can compromise, change or even corrupt this truth. Other religions will have their versions of this and have their own little variations. A lot of the time most religions will have some secular aspects they allow which compromise or have multi gods and beliefs and make it mystical and non specific. But secular society can have their own truths which they think is the right way to go. But this can be compromised or corrupted or changed to suit whatever the situations are. But the truth of God is through Jesus as Jesus says in the bible He is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE.

You are doing things a bit backwards. You are looking to first see if someone is moral, and then you are deciding if they are christian. It would seem to me that you are able to determine morality independently of christianity.

I guess so. JUst because a person says he is a Christian doesn't mean he is. You have to have something to measure this by. That is why Jesus is the truth. But Gods truth is in our hearts and this is through our conscience. But people can block it out or rationalize it away. Eventually it gets lost or a person hardens their heart to this and they dont recognize or hear the voice of truth in their head/heart. They tell themselves that other things are OK and eventually get deluded with this. Though when I say deluded I dont mean living in a delusion. They may have what they think is a good living life and believe that it is the right thing. But I believe this is the way according to this world. This can be tricky as it looks like it is the right thing but it still is not living according to Gods truth. It still relies on self and using worldly idols and living as the most important thing.

Then how do you know what God says is moral?

It is what Jesus says with His words and teachings. Thats why He was sent so that we have a clear understanding of God. He was God incarnate, God is with us here on earth. He wasn't in the sky or heaven He was among us so we could see clearly who He was and how He lived. When Jesus ascended into heaven after He resurrected for the dead He said He would sent another helper the Holy Spirit. This is Gods spirit who teaches and guides us. This reminds us of what Jesus said and speaks to our conscience.

When we accept Christ the spirit of God lives in us and we are awakened to this. Our conscience is sensitive to God so we get a God conscience. Our conscience is pricked when we sin and we are always being reminded or have high lighted what is pleasing to God. So in everything we do we will have this little voice like anyone has but this is strong and in tune with God. This is different to the truth and the right and wrongs that this world has. It will also tell us Gods will for our lives. As Jesus prayed They will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

You are confusing freedom with morality. They are not the same thing.

The moral truth stays the same. But when society went through the sexual revolution of the sixties it was based on freedom to do what a person wanted to do with their own body. They were breaking with the constraints of being told that it was wrong to do this and wrong to do that. Thats why there was a lot of nudity with the hippy movement and Woodstock ect. This was a point society got to which spurred the change in attitudes.

From that we have grown and become more liberal and accepting of a lot more things sexually and in our lifestyles. Marriage was seen as less important, it was OK to have affairs and have sex more often without commitments. It was partly based on a good thing about discussing the taboos of sex which society had hidden and had cause its own problems but it was a over reaction. So the morality was changed, compromised and corrupted with the justification of a person rights to be free to choose their lifestyle, who they had sex with, when they did and how they did it. So it was about self and what a person felt like doing as an expression of sexual freedom.

Based on what evidence? European nations with low rates of church attendance and christian beliefs are working great, probably better than the US. How do you explain this?

This is just a personal belief that a Christian will have. Like I said I believe that Jesus is the truth and the way to go. Throughout history secular society and even religions have had many different ways in which they have tried to live. We often here of the latest trends with how to live a better life. We have had different rates of crime and divorce and drugs ect. They go up and down and some societies do well for periods. But overall throughout time I believe they are all attempts to find the best ways but are all missing the mark.

So gradually if we look I believe that things have become worse in one way or another. If crime goes down then domestic violence or suicide goes up. But there is always something. We just kid ourselves that things are OK when we get over one thing we then fail with another. But we will never really live in peace and harmony with each other and this planet. Eventually things will start to break down more and more. We are seeing this with the planet and other things like terrorism.

Other religions make the same claims about their gods.

Some do and some just have different philosophies. A lot of the Buddhism religions have reincarnation and many Gods so I am not sure what they believe. Its very mystical and also has some secular ways. Islam can be seen for what it is and was created from Christianity by man. It is a diversion of the truth. There maybe some truths in these religions that God sees as ok but there is only one truth as far as God is concerned. So I believe these other religions can cause some to go off the track and live according to untruths.

If you worship another god, is that immoral?

I am not one to judge an individual. Though what a person may believe can be in line with what is right before God. Maybe some religions are in tune with God but its their way of understanding. So long as they are living according to what Jesus teaches. I believe even non religious people can be more moral than some religious people as they live according to what Jesus said more. Jesus said if we love others as ourselves and help others we are helping Jesus. When you give a drink to someone who thirsts you are giving Jesus a drink.

This is that Godly nature we all can have in our hearts and its something that comes by nature and not by trying to keep in line with a list of do's and dont,s and failing all the time. Thats why Jesus was always going off at the pharisee as they were walking around being all righteous and saying look at me I am so good. But Jesus hung with the outcasts because they were more realistic and realized their sin and were humbled and repented.

 

[Loudmouth]

I believe there is a moral truth that stands true despite what religion or secular group or individual states. I believe this is written in our hearts and our conscience will determine this. But people can compromise, change or even corrupt this truth. Other religions will have their versions of this and have their own little variations. A lot of the time most religions will have some secular aspects they allow which compromise or have multi gods and beliefs and make it mystical and non specific. But secular society can have their own truths which they think is the right way to go. But this can be compromised or corrupted or changed to suit whatever the situations are. But the truth of God is through Jesus as Jesus says in the bible He is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE.

All religious texts say that they are the truth. Yours is not original in this aspect.

Like you, I have concluded that we have our own sense of morality, and it works quite well. We even use it to judge the morality of what gods command, as you do with other religions. Secular humanism is the distillation of that morality that we all naturally have without the corruption of religions and traditions.

I guess so. JUst because a person says he is a Christian doesn't mean he is. You have to have something to measure this by. That is why Jesus is the truth. But Gods truth is in our hearts and this is through our conscience. But people can block it out or rationalize it away.

How do you determine that the Bible does contain the truth? Because it says so?

 

[TheImmortalJellyfish]

What seems to make the most sense (to me, anyway), is that Christianity should be more like a philosophy. Just like atheism.

Religion comes around when people start "doing stuff" for their god...atheists don't have to "do stuff", so nobody really has any business calling them "religious"...while a HUGE MAJORITY of theists from every denomination think they need to do this, do that, don't do this, abstain from that, point out how others are wrong, and if they follow it all, they get their reward.

If we use the term "religious" to define an habitual act/set of acts performed by an individual in order to achieve validation of their beliefs, then we could all be considered religious, because we all habitually seek knowledge and understanding. The source material one chooses - whether it's a Bible, Koran, or a Dawkins publication - should be irrelevant.

Faith is subjective. Atheists are not religious, but they could be considered "faithful" - to scientific processes. Which could also be considered a philosophy.

What these all seem to have in common is conviction, which is why this is such a touchy subject with everyone. We're all trying to make a case for what we consider to be very important.

 

[stevevw]

All religious texts say that they are the truth. Yours is not original in this aspect.

No not really. Buddhism has a Gautama who would be the equivalent of Jesus is only one of many prophets who claimed to find enlightenment. But He wasn't a God and died. Mohammad was a man and said he was the final prophet but he also died. He was not God and only claimed to be a prophet on the level of someone like Moses in the old testament. Mormonism says there are many gods and a person can become a god. So these beliefs are relying on a man to speak and claim the way. But these men come and go and they are the same as many other great men of religious status. None of them claim to be God and that they are the only way to God. They are pointing to another way and in the case of Islam it is a book not a God. In the case of other religions there are many god heads so nothing is specific.

Jesus states that He is God and that He is the only way to God. He is not just a man who was a prophet but is actually God himself who dwelt among us. The other thing that is different is that all these other religions talk about a state that a person needs to be in such as perfection to be in the presence of God. As with Buddhism it is being reincarnated until you reach nirvana. But with God we can be imperfect sinners before God as Jesus paid the price for our sins and makes us acceptable to God. The truth cannot contradict itself. If truth is real then truth has to mean there is one truth and not many truths. So we have to look into which is the truth. Just because many say they are the truth doesn't mean they are and that there can be one truth among them all for us to find. The bible has prophesies about Jesus which have been fulfilled. Jesus is a person who was among us in history. He was crucified for claiming to be the Son of God and the only way to God the father. No other person has ever claimed and done this.

Like you, I have concluded that we have our own sense of morality, and it works quite well. We even use it to judge the morality of what gods command, as you do with other religions. Secular humanism is the distillation of that morality that we all naturally have without the corruption of religions and traditions.

I agree we all have the moral truth within us and this is in our conscience. But I believe it is the truth of God through Jesus Christ. But this worlds morals are subjective and can be made into many versions which make it hard to claim there is any clear and strong moral truth that stands out and stands firm to last and overcome the compromise and corruption that can dilute or even pervert the truth of God. If we allow many peoples ideals of what is moral then how can we ever have any clear understanding. When one person gives their version it is then undone by anothers because both have to be accepted as valid. The bible talks about how this world through humanism and worldly thought compromises and corrupts the truth of God.

[FONT=&quot]Rom [/FONT][FONT=&quot]1:19[/FONT][FONT=&quot]-25: “Because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man-- and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.[/FONT]

Romans 1:28-32: “And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.” Notice these are things that religions address, moral and ethical issues.

How do you determine that the Bible does contain the truth? Because it says so?

Partly by this which is a faith. But you also have to check it out and compare what is claimed by people and other religions. You can normally find that other religions will have man made things in them or that it is a man who makes the claims. There are also ungodly things in them if you look carefully. But there are claims in the bible that can be checked and verified. Jesus is making a specific claim to be the truth above all truths even saying that there will be other religions who will claim the same. The disciples address these things time and time again in their sermons about the one true God.

Paul speaks to the people his time who worshiped idols telling them they were just things of metal and wood and had nothing. That Jesus was the living God and able to do things in their lives. Jesus performed miracles and there were witnesses. He was God among us. The old testamnet talks about how the other pagan gods claimed things and the prophets challenged the people to see which was the true living God. God proved himself so that they could see He had the power of a true God and wasn't a man made idol that people worshiped and put their faith in.

 

[Loudmouth]

But He wasn't a God and died. Mohammad was a man and said he was the final prophet but he also died. He was not God and only claimed to be a prophet on the level of someone like Moses in the old testament.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, and the other authors of the Bible were not gods, either.

Mormonism says there are many gods and a person can become a god. So these beliefs are relying on a man to speak and claim the way.

The same is true for the Bible.

Jesus states that He is God and that He is the only way to God.

That's what the authors of the Bible claim, and they were men.

I agree we all have the moral truth within us and this is in our conscience. But I believe it is the truth of God through Jesus Christ.

That belief is not necessary for the use of that morality.

But this worlds morals are subjective and can be made into many versions which make it hard to claim there is any clear and strong moral truth that stands out and stands firm to last and overcome the compromise and corruption that can dilute or even pervert the truth of God. If we allow many peoples ideals of what is moral then how can we ever have any clear understanding. When one person gives their version it is then undone by anothers because both have to be accepted as valid. The bible talks about how this world through humanism and worldly thought compromises and corrupts the truth of God.

Once again, you assume that your religious beliefs are not the perversion of morality.

[FONT=&quot]Rom [/FONT][FONT=&quot]1:19[/FONT][FONT=&quot]-25: “Because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man-- and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.[/FONT]

Romans 1:28-32: “And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.” Notice these are things that religions address, moral and ethical issues.


Partly by this which is a faith. But you also have to check it out and compare what is claimed by people and other religions. You can normally find that other religions will have man made things in them or that it is a man who makes the claims. There are also ungodly things in them if you look carefully. But there are claims in the bible that can be checked and verified. Jesus is making a specific claim to be the truth above all truths even saying that there will be other religions who will claim the same. The disciples address these things time and time again in their sermons about the one true God.

Paul speaks to the people his time who worshiped idols telling them they were just things of metal and wood and had nothing. That Jesus was the living God and able to do things in their lives. Jesus performed miracles and there were witnesses. He was God among us. The old testamnet talks about how the other pagan gods claimed things and the prophets challenged the people to see which was the true living God. God proved himself so that they could see He had the power of a true God and wasn't a man made idol that people worshiped and put their faith in.

Again, all of this is written by man, not God.

 

[stevevw]

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, and the other authors of the Bible were not gods, either.

Yes and neither were all of the other possible figures in religions. But Jesus was and He made certain claims about Himself and about God the father. When He died He rose from the dead so He showed He was made immortal and overcame the power of an earthly death. So the things said by other religions can be taken as just man saying these things about someone or something that they believed. But this is nothing unusual to what man have said and doesn't stand out or have anything different.

The same is true for the Bible.

No the bible doesn't say we can become gods. But in Mormonism it shows how we can look into what a religion says and find that it actually is false. Saying that a person can become a god is taking away the significance of any god as a supreme being and giving humans a power. This is what many want as it makes the individual on par with God and takes that away from the real God which defeats the purpose. In fact this is what Satan wants as he believed he was just as great. But this was his pride and selfishness that caused him to be like this. The person who made the claim initially was Jesus who is more than a man. He is God incarnate. So the actual God who is spoken about is stating things and was among us.

That's what the authors of the Bible claim, and they were men.

No this is what Jesus claimed and He was not just man but also God himself. The men of the bible just repeated what they were told be Jesus himself. They actaullt seen Him perform miracles and rise from the dead so they not only heard the words but seen this for themselves.

That belief is not necessary for the use of that morality.

If there is a moral truth then there has to be one moral truth that can be held up. Truth itself points to there being a single truth. So this truth would have to be known by all and this is where I believe that the bible tells us about God being known by all in our hearts and minds. Jesus stated this as well by saying He was the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE.

Once again, you assume that your religious beliefs are not the perversion of morality.

Well how can they be they dont state anything perverse. It is merely truth. When Jesus spoke to the pharisees He was challenging them as they were hiding behind a veil of religion. He was saying it is what is in your heart that makes a person. Everything Jesus spoke about was to do with its not what goes into a person or what they just do on the outside that is truly where they are at. It is what was inside them and in their hearts. You could tell a person by the fruits they had just like a fruit tree. But more than this He was saying that a person needed to get this a person had to come to God through Him and there was no other way. It wasn't about Him exalting Himself but it was that there was a power in being transformed into a new person through an act of faith in what He had come to do that made this possible. Then a person was born again into the truth of God and your heart and conscience was living in the light and truth of God.
Mark 7:15
Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them."
James 1:23 - 24 23 If you listen to the word, but do not put it into practice you are like people who look in a mirror and see themselves as they are. 24 They take a good look at themselves and then go away and at once forget what they look like.

Again, all of this is written by man, not God.

Yes but it is man who has witnessed and heard those things from God himself in Jesus Christ.