Formal Debate Peanut Gallery - Atheistic Secular Humanism...

[Loudmouth]

How do you mean.

Having faith in people or organizations is not the same as having faith in a deity. You can demonstrate that people and organizations exist, and evidence their direct actions. Not so with deities. That's what makes it different.

When it comes to the big questions like the origin of the universe, the origin of life atheists do have some faith involved.

No, they don't. For things that we have no evidence for, atheists simply say "I don't know". For things that we have little evidence for, atheists simply say "It could have happened that way, or not". That doesn't require faith.

They are promoted to explain the finely tuned.

And we explain what confirmation bias is.

Some even go around the the high priests of evolution and science speaking like an evangelist on some of these theories.

Once again, you try to insult atheists by making them look like theists. Why is that?

The other thing to consider is that many lay people look to some scientists and their literature like gods. They believe whatever they say even though they dont know if what they are saying is true or not. They just believe that just because they are scientists it must be true. So many atheists do have faith in these things as non have been verified but they believe in them as fervently as they claim people do about God.

All false accusations. I have shown you plenty of evidence, and you ignore it.

Imagine a world wiithout any faith in a God. We all can acknowledge that our sense of morals has come from at least some form of a belief in a God.

I acknowledge no such thing. Theism is a human invention, and our own sense of morality was used to construct religions. Our morality didn't come from religions. Religion came from our morals.

This is easily seen by the way that people are condemned for immoral acts even though they say that they are following the commands of a deity. People accept or reject religious claims based on their own sense of morality.

All religion does is offer a false sense of authority in the priesthood. Perhaps some people need an authority figure, but it seems to me that the ultimate authority should be whether or not something is moral, not whether or not is commanded by a deity.

It has always represented good and bad and right and wrong. But we have seen what happens when there is no beliefs and we base things on the beliefs this world has about things. Thats why we are having so many problems. The more we move away from God the more trouble we find ourselves in. We have seen that secular society version of morals becomes compromised and corrupted and then the truth get turned into a lie and all sorts of things are allowed. Thats because it becomes subjective and has to allow many different individual values which then counter and undermine each other. We end up not really having any moral and a great big mess. We need God to define what is right and what is wrong in this world.

We are having problems? The western socieites with the least amount of religiosity are seeing some of the best times in all of history. Here in the US, people have never been as free or as prosperous. Crime has continued to decline over the last 50 years while discrimination has slowly disappeared. Problems? Look around, chief.

 

[Loudmouth]

Instead of taking religion completely out of schools and society we could be teaching it a bit more.

Are people being pulled out of churches? Are they being blocked from going to Sunday school? Is anyone stopping pastors, priests, or preachers from teaching in churces?

 

[Freodin]

I dont think a belief in God could ever be imposed and its not meant to be that way. Though some have tried in the past I believe that was their good intention, but thats it it was mans ideas and he added in all these extra things which had taken belief beyond what it should be. They say religion and politics should never be mixed.

So it would be imposed in the first place for anyone to have to deal with you. I just think that it is best served by letting it be an example to others as it mostly is now. But not as in the institutions of the church but in the examples of Jesus as was suppose to be in the early church and is with people today who live a good Christ like life. Instead of taking religion completely out of schools and society we could be teaching it a bit more. Or at least letting people hear the gospel more without it being demonized as it is now or being places as one of many religions that are all the same.

I am still here, opposing you to teach anything about your religion in schools. And next to me are my friends Mustafa and Prajit, who say that you should teach more about Islam and Hinduism in schools. We are the ones who keep your nice little christian society from working.

So try again: how do you suppose to deal with us?

I cant make you believe anything you dont want to. I believe there will come a time when Gods spirit will pour out on the world and there will be some great preaching and warnings coming. Like I said the world is getting crazier and somethings going to give. People are thinking more along the lines of something is going on and is going to happen with all this stuff about wars and terrorism and an uneasy feeling about things in the world. Economies are struggling and its like we are heading for some sort of flash point or crisis. The bible talks about the end times and you can tell its coming just like when the leaves fall from a tree and you know the season is changing. I just think we maybe to late and even though I believe Jesus is the answer this world is to far gone and set in their ways to stop and change anyway.

Yes, you can leave it to God. But that isn't going to change society. Its twothousand years since Jesus now, and God hasn't bothered to build a perfect human society yet, and and all the human attempts - as you have correctly recognized - have failed.

And all this "end time" talk: yes, the world is comming to some difficult times. And the world is comming to some great times. As I said before, society is a constant change. Society has been through difficult times before, times of great calamity, times where the end of the world as foretold was so close, you could tell its comming just like when the leaves fall. People have seen all the signs... all the time.

The "world" is never gone too far. As long as there are humans around, there will be human society. And it will change constantly. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse, and sometimes just so.

This is not something good. This is not something bad either. It just is the way it is.
Attempting to stop that, like you are wanting to do, is just a recipe for total disaster. Attempting to go with it, like I propose, will at least provide a way for coping.

Your system does not work. Mine doesn't work either. But mine still works better than yours.

 

[buzuxi02]

Enver Hoxha definately thought so. As the communist leader of Albania, he made it the official 'religion' of the state.

Article 37 of the communist constitution of Albania of 1976 states:


Article 37

The state recognizes no religion whatever and supports atheist propaganda for the purpose of inculcating the scientific materialist world outlook in people.

 

[bhsmte]

Originally Posted by stevevw View Post
Instead of taking religion completely out of schools and society we could be teaching it a bit more.

Which religion are you advocating being taught in public schools and in what class should this be taught?

Are you not free to learn and worship your religion in church and in the freedom of your own home? I would imagine you are, so why should it be taken to public schools?

 

[Freodin]

Enver Hoxha definately thought so. As the communist leader of Albania, he made it the official 'religion' of the state.

Article 37 of the communist constitution of Albania of 1976 states:


Article 37

The state recognizes no religion whatever and supports atheist propaganda for the purpose of inculcating the scientific materialist world outlook in people.

Yep, he definitly thought so. That would be the reason why the article you cited states: "the state recognizes NO RELIGION WHATEVER".

 

[stevevw]

Originally Posted by stevevw View Post
Instead of taking religion completely out of schools and society we could be teaching it a bit more.

Which religion are you advocating being taught in public schools and in what class should this be taught?

Are you not free to learn and worship your religion in church and in the freedom of your own home? I would imagine you are, so why should it be taken to public schools?

Maybe not in schools as a subject but maybe as a role model for living. Kids dont have much in the way of positive role models now a days. I just think that its a good way to help people learn a good way of living. I dont agree with mixing church and state as a way of ruling society as it doesn't work. But I think if we adopted some more of the examples of Christ it would benefit society a lot more. Make Jesus our role model instead of Hollywood stars or the many other idols we put up on pedestals.

 

[bhsmte]

Originally Posted by stevevw View Post
Instead of taking religion completely out of schools and society we could be teaching it a bit more.




Maybe not in schools as a subject but maybe as a role model for living. Kids dont have much in the way of positive role models now a days. I just think that its a good way to help people learn a good way of living. I dont agree with mixing church and state as a way of ruling society as it doesn't work. But I think if we adopted some more of the examples of Christ it would benefit society a lot more. Make Jesus our role model instead of Hollywood stars or the many other idols we put up on pedestals.

Back to my original point.

What is keeping parents from taking their kids to church, teaching them how to worship and teaching them lessons of Christianity?

Are people not free to do so right now?

 

[Loudmouth]

Maybe not in schools as a subject but maybe as a role model for living. Kids dont have much in the way of positive role models now a days. I just think that its a good way to help people learn a good way of living. I dont agree with mixing church and state as a way of ruling society as it doesn't work. But I think if we adopted some more of the examples of Christ it would benefit society a lot more. Make Jesus our role model instead of Hollywood stars or the many other idols we put up on pedestals.

I don't understand why Jesus or any religion is a required part of teaching children how to respect others and be a moral part of society.

 

[stevevw]

I am still here, opposing you to teach anything about your religion in schools. And next to me are my friends Mustafa and Prajit, who say that you should teach more about Islam and Hinduism in schools. We are the ones who keep your nice little christian society from working.

So try again: how do you suppose to deal with us?

Yes this is the trouble with a pluralistic society. We have to allow all versions of everything because no one wants to abide by any particular belief of set of values and morals. Objectivity blurs any chance of having clear and strong foundations to build a society on where we can have common and unified ways to live and behave. It all gets undermined and we end up with anything goes. This just destabilizes our societies and we end up having more rules and regulations to keep it all in check. We tell ourselves its worth it because its our right to do what we want according to how we see things. We call it a free society but little do we realize we are losing our rights more and more because of allowing anything goes. There are regulations for this and that and legislation's and restrictions for just about everything we do nowadays. But we still tell ourselves its a freedom.

Yes, you can leave it to God. But that isn't going to change society. Its twothousand years since Jesus now, and God hasn't bothered to build a perfect human society yet, and and all the human attempts - as you have correctly recognized - have failed.

No God hasn't intervened in what we choose to do. He has left it up to us. He sent His son as a way to come to Him and be saved. We just have to accept this by letting go of trying to play God and allowing Him to lead the way. Jesus has already shown us and has said He is the way, the truth and the life. Its said a hundred times in the bible about Jesus being the way and we just need to follow Him. Its pretty simple but we keep trying to do it every other way. We just have to trust God. The more we try to do it our way and reject God the more we will fail and it will gradually get worse.

And all this "end time" talk: yes, the world is comming to some difficult times. And the world is coming to some great times. As I said before, society is a constant change. Society has been through difficult times before, times of great calamity, times where the end of the world as foretold was so close, you could tell its comming just like when the leaves fall. People have seen all the signs... all the time.

I think the world is developing a form of insanity which is going to be hard to overcome. Sometimes it takes time but just like an individual can go past a point and break down and be damaged beyond repair so can this world. You can see it with each generation. One person commits suicide every 40 seconds now. People are worried and many are depressed. It may not be the end times who knows but there is sure some signs of bad stuff that is in store for many. If this world is all we have what a horrible existence for many.

The "world" is never gone too far. As long as there are humans around, there will be human society. And it will change constantly. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse, and sometimes just so.

Well it seems to have just gradually got worse in one way or another. Will there ever be a time when we will all be at peace and feel secure. This affects people to the point of affecting their mentality and nerves. I think many are in denial. We keep saying it will all get better but that just allows us to keep doing the same thing. Its just like with global warming. We tell ourselves it will be ok and leave it for later, for our kids to fix up. But we are already seeing the consequences. The world is going to get more populated. More mouths to feed, more resources needed, more of everything. How long do you think that can go on for. There has to be a breaking point.

This is not something good. This is not something bad either. It just is the way it is.

I just think what is happening is a progression. Its not 20 years ago or 50 years ago where we could turn things around a lot easier. Its now and things have accumulated and have taken some tolls on the earth and on us. You can see how people are more worried and that things are different. Its like some damage has been done thats not going to fix easily. Just like the planet is in for some rough times humanity is as well.

Your system does not work. Mine doesn't work either. But mine still works better than yours.

How do you know. I know we have had some bad examples in the past but that has been mankind still trying to do it his way by adding in his versions of things. We need to follow Jesus like the early church. Whenever Israel followed God they had peace and prosperity. Whenever a society moves away form their morals like it collapses. Families breakdown then communities and then nations.

 

[stevevw]

I don't understand why Jesus or any religion is a required part of teaching children how to respect others and be a moral part of society.

Because they can have a clear and unified example. It seems families dont teach kids respect anymore. Parents themselves are having their own problems. The role models that are presented like the music stars on MTV and others set bad examples. We send mixed messages and set bad examples. Thats because we dont have any strong and defined foundation to build our morals and values. It seems anything goes because no one wants to be told what to do and everyone wants to be the god of their own lives.

 

[bhsmte]

Because they can have a clear and unified example. It seems families dont teach kids respect anymore. Parents themselves are having their own problems. The role models that are presented like the music stars on MTV and others set bad examples. We send mixed messages and set bad examples. Thats because we dont have any strong and defined foundation to build our morals and values. It seems anything goes because no one wants to be told what to do and everyone wants to be the god of their own lives.

Since Christianity is clearly the gold standard for you, I still need an answer to my question:

Are parents not free to teach their kids about Christianity, take them to church and worship the religion or denomination of their choosing?

What else do you require? Do you want teaching kids Christianity to become mandatory for all people?

 

[Loudmouth]

Because they can have a clear and unified example.

So can secular humanism.

It seems families dont teach kids respect anymore.

Every generation has claimed this since time immortal. Even Socrates was convicted of "corrupting the youth".

If you look at real statistics, you will see that crime has gone down quite a bit over the last 30 years.

We send mixed messages and set bad examples. Thats because we dont have any strong and defined foundation to build our morals and values. It seems anything goes because no one wants to be told what to do and everyone wants to be the god of their own lives.

Secular humanism does have a strong and defined foundation for morals and values. Again, why do we need to reference a deity?

 

[buzuxi02]

Yep, he definitly thought so. That would be the reason why the article you cited states: "the state recognizes NO RELIGION WHATEVER".

In 1967 Albania proclaimed itself the first atheistic state in the world . What this meant is that it parted from the other communist countries which described themselves as "non-faith" or simply "none" . Atheism replaced the "none", thats what the statement is saying. As where in America government cannot pas a law establishing a favored religion, the article is establishing atheism as the favored religion and banning all the others.

 

[Freodin]

Yes this is the trouble with a pluralistic society. We have to allow all versions of everything because no one wants to abide by any particular belief of set of values and morals. Objectivity blurs any chance of having clear and strong foundations to build a society on where we can have common and unified ways to live and behave. It all gets undermined and we end up with anything goes. This just destabilizes our societies and we end up having more rules and regulations to keep it all in check. We tell ourselves its worth it because its our right to do what we want according to how we see things. We call it a free society but little do we realize we are losing our rights more and more because of allowing anything goes. There are regulations for this and that and legislation's and restrictions for just about everything we do nowadays. But we still tell ourselves its a freedom.

Another trouble with pluralistic societies is that they have, by default, to accept people who don't like living in a pluralistic society. People like you, for example.

But, well, I understand that you believe that. I understand that you don't like that.

But somehow it seems to be just so difficult to answer my simple question: I am the one who promotes this system, who keeps you from installing your prefered system.

How do you suppose to deal with me?

Stop lamenting about how bad it all is and tell me what you propose to do against it.

How do you know. I know we have had some bad examples in the past but that has been mankind still trying to do it his way by adding in his versions of things. We need to follow Jesus like the early church. Whenever Israel followed God they had peace and prosperity. Whenever a society moves away form their morals like it collapses. Families breakdown then communities and then nations.

We have a lot of bad examples. And we have no - zero, nada, nilch - good examples. Every single society that based itself on such an absolute worldview - and I include the authoritarian atheistic regimes in that statement! - have failed! Small or large, pathetic or powerful, ancient or modern... no society has managed to keep up with this noble claim.

Even if we consider Israel as a real society that followed God, and not some legendary tale of the past that some people used to tell to their contemporaries for that same reason that you make this post here... it has failed. It could not keep "following God".
Read the Bible. Most of the OT consists of prophets telling their people how bad it is and that they just had to return to "following God" and everything would be fine. It never worked.

That's how I know my system works better than yours. In every society you will have people who don't follow... whatever it is the rulers want them to follow. You cannot get rid of them.

 

[stevevw]

Since Christianity is clearly the gold standard for you, I still need an answer to my question:

Are parents not free to teach their kids about Christianity, take them to church and worship the religion or denomination of their choosing?

What else do you require? Do you want teaching kids Christianity to become mandatory for all people?

Yes they are able to choose to follow their beliefs. But what we find is that they can do this only to then have their kids be in school and have an opposing set of values be taught. Then they go out into the streets and there is another set there as well. They then see what different sectors of society like with the pop culture and Hollywood movie stars and all the teen magazines ect promoting different values again. It becomes confusing and the messages get mixed and lost. One cancels the other out and then nothing really has any basis for being established. In fact when this happens its often the lowest common denominator that wins out. Kids get side tracked and lost in the system and easily influenced by many things.

So a pluralistic society where the humanist view is everyone is entitled to a belief and their own set of values and views actually creates a divided society that breaks down. If I am a Christian and believe that being promiscuous is wrong with sex I cant have any say in the society around me about it being wrong as far as having that view taken serious and being something to promote. It will just get ridiculed and rejected against as being to controlling. Thats because a humanist view is that we have a right to do what we want with our bodies as long as we dont harm anyone else. So then this can allow anything goes which undermines any attempt to place some values on this. What normally happens once again is the lowest common denominator and things break down again. We end up with underage pregnancies, marriage and family breakdowns, high abortion rates, emotional traumas from relationships and teen depression and suicide ect. So even though we tell ourselves we are not harming anyone so that we can do what we want it actually does cause a lot of harm in the long run. But we will deny this because we regard our own selfish desires as more important at the time.

So really as a Christian I lose my rights more than secular society who get to do anything. It moves away from anything that tries to put any reins on behavior. This I believe is what is leading to the breakdowns in our societies. But Religious values will not and can not be something that society will accept as a guide and standard as people dont want to give up their so called freedoms. The ironic thing is because all these so called freedoms lead to so many breakdowns in society we end up with 10 times as many rules, regulations and legislation's because of all the fall out. So its really a high price we pay for this so called freedom.

 

[stevevw]

Another trouble with pluralistic societies is that they have, by default, to accept people who don't like living in a pluralistic society. People like you, for example.

But, well, I understand that you believe that. I understand that you don't like that.

But somehow it seems to be just so difficult to answer my simple question: I am the one who promotes this system, who keeps you from installing your prefered system.

How do you suppose to deal with me?

Stop lamenting about how bad it all is and tell me what you propose to do against it.

At the end of the day there isn't much I can do. You win out and society gets their way. All I can do is live my life according to what I believe and set an example like Christ did. Jesus tried to show the way and look what happened there. But what Jesus did made it possible for others to have a way out of living in sin and being trapped in the ongoing defeat from the power of sin and death. We can be transformed and become new people living by the spirit of God and not being controlled by our sinful fleshly desires. This is the only way but I cant make someone believe that and do it. They have to decide and make that choice. Its a matter of faith and trust in God. Letting Him take the reins and not relying on this world and mans way of doing things which seems to fail all the time.

We have a lot of bad examples. And we have no - zero, nada, nilch - good examples. Every single society that based itself on such an absolute worldview - and I include the authoritarian atheistic regimes in that statement! - have failed! Small or large, pathetic or powerful, ancient or modern... no society has managed to keep up with this noble claim.

Thats right humanity cannot do it and hasn't got the power to overcome sin and death on its own. We can only do it by allowing Christ to be our power. We become born again and a new creature living in the spirit of God. It is no longer I that lives but Christ that lives in me. He lead the way and showed us the example. He defeated sin and death on the cross.

Even if we consider Israel as a real society that followed God, and not some legendary tale of the past that some people used to tell to their contemporaries for that same reason that you make this post here... it has failed. It could not keep "following God".
Read the Bible. Most of the OT consists of prophets telling their people how bad it is and that they just had to return to "following God" and everything would be fine. It never worked.

Much of the old testament speaks about the great kings who ruled with their own power and how they rejected God. The prophets warned them because of their pride and sin that they would face disasters and and their kingdoms would suffer and they did. When Gods people were obedient things went good and there was peace and rewards such as the promised land and other things that worked out for the best when they followed God and were obedient.

That's how I know my system works better than yours. In every society you will have people who don't follow... whatever it is the rulers want them to follow. You cannot get rid of them.

I am not sure of that. I think there are some examples that show when people follow moral religious lives they can have some benefits. There is data that shows people can have good outcomes from living a religiously good life and having some good moral standards. There are a lot of Christians who set good examples. I realize there are non religious people that are also good. Being religious in itself doesn't mean that its because of any God either. But I believe being a Christian and believing in Jesus is different and there are Christians around the world who are living a Christ like life. It is the examples that will stand out in the end and it wont be because of any particular religion or country or set of particular things that cause it. It is only through Jesus in a persons life that will make the true changes that transform a person into a new child of God.

 

[Freodin]

At the end of the day there isn't much I can do. You win out and society gets their way. All I can do is live my life according to what I believe and set an example like Christ did.

See, this is why my system works and yours doesn't. We live in a pluralistic society where you can live your life according to what you believe and set any examples you want.

If I am a Christian and believe that being promiscuous is wrong with sex I cant have any say in the society around me about it being wrong as far as having that view taken serious and being something to promote. It will just get ridiculed and rejected against as being to controlling.

And I will get ridiculed and rejected against as being a promoter of the destruction of society.
So we both have our freedom to live our lifes according to what we believe... and all we have to endure for that is a little ridicule and rejection.

Isn't that better than fearing the thought police banging at your door at four in the morning?

 

[bhsmte]

Yes they are able to choose to follow their beliefs. But what we find is that they can do this only to then have their kids be in school and have an opposing set of values be taught. Then they go out into the streets and there is another set there as well. They then see what different sectors of society like with the pop culture and Hollywood movie stars and all the teen magazines ect promoting different values again. It becomes confusing and the messages get mixed and lost. One cancels the other out and then nothing really has any basis for being established. In fact when this happens its often the lowest common denominator that wins out. Kids get side tracked and lost in the system and easily influenced by many things.

So a pluralistic society where the humanist view is everyone is entitled to a belief and their own set of values and views actually creates a divided society that breaks down. If I am a Christian and believe that being promiscuous is wrong with sex I cant have any say in the society around me about it being wrong as far as having that view taken serious and being something to promote. It will just get ridiculed and rejected against as being to controlling. Thats because a humanist view is that we have a right to do what we want with our bodies as long as we dont harm anyone else. So then this can allow anything goes which undermines any attempt to place some values on this. What normally happens once again is the lowest common denominator and things break down again. We end up with underage pregnancies, marriage and family breakdowns, high abortion rates, emotional traumas from relationships and teen depression and suicide ect. So even though we tell ourselves we are not harming anyone so that we can do what we want it actually does cause a lot of harm in the long run. But we will deny this because we regard our own selfish desires as more important at the time.

So really as a Christian I lose my rights more than secular society who get to do anything. It moves away from anything that tries to put any reins on behavior. This I believe is what is leading to the breakdowns in our societies. But Religious values will not and can not be something that society will accept as a guide and standard as people dont want to give up their so called freedoms. The ironic thing is because all these so called freedoms lead to so many breakdowns in society we end up with 10 times as many rules, regulations and legislation's because of all the fall out. So its really a high price we pay for this so called freedom.

It would appear, that you desire all other parts of society to coincide with your particular beliefs and or teachings, because what you are allowed freedom to follow and teach on your own, doesn't hold up well if others disagree with you.

 

[PsychoSarah]

In 1967 Albania proclaimed itself the first atheistic state in the world . What this meant is that it parted from the other communist countries which described themselves as "non-faith" or simply "none" . Atheism replaced the "none", thats what the statement is saying. As where in America government cannot pas a law establishing a favored religion, the article is establishing atheism as the favored religion and banning all the others.

Ugh, that is pretty terrible actually