Formal Debate: Dogma of Purgatory Athanasias/Uphill Battle

[D'Ann]

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Stipulations:

The debate will consist of three rounds each post 5000 word maximum and 1 week to answer each post.

Athanasias (affirmative) will have the opening statement.

Uphill Battle(opposing) will have the closing statement.

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[Athanasias]

My Opening statement will have to come in a few post because the computer will not let me put it all on one post. This has never been a problem in the past as you may see my other debates. But as promised it will be under 5000 words. My opening is a little over 2000 words.

So here is part 1 of my opening statement.

I would like to begin this debate by thanking my worthy opponent and fellow brother in Christ UphillBattle for taking the time out to discuss and debate these important issues of the faith with me. May God bless him and his family. Lord Jesus Christ Son of the living God you revealed your truth to us in the sacred scriptures and gave your church the blessing to teach your truth for you speak to us through your holy Church which is God’s oracle(LK 10:16, Matt 18:18). Bless this debate and help us to listen to one another in Charity and peace. Open our minds to your truth about the issue of purgatory and help us to see in your word the truth on all issues. We ask this through the same Christ our lord who lives and reigns with you in the unity of the Holy Spirit One God forever and ever Amen.

Purgatory

I would like to start this debate by addressing what purgatory is not since many Protestants and even uneducated Catholics may not be aware of. Purgatory is NOT a waiting room for heaven. Purgatory is NOT limbo. Purgatory is NOT a second chance to get to heaven. All who go to purgatory are destined for heaven, as we will see St. Paul and Jesus alluding to in sacred scripture. Purgatory is NOT something that I do it is not a good work it does not earn me salvation by my good works. God does purgatory and it is completely passive on our part. Purgatory does NOT invalidate the Cross of Jesus rather purgatory is the graces of the Cross applied to the Body of Christ after death.

So now that you are aware of what Purgatory is not, I will explain what the concept of Purgatory in the Catholic understanding is. The Catechism of the Catholic Church which is a sure norm for Catholic official teaching states the following about Purgatory:

“1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire”(Catechism of the Catholic Church Para 1030-1031)

It must be stated that first of all the word purgatory is not in scripture but this should not deter us form not believing in it. The word Trinity is also not in scripture yet all Christians know that God is a Trinity. Just like the Trinity, the concept of purgatory is in the bible but the word itself was formulated later to help one give a name to a doctrine taught in the sacred scripture by the apostles. Like the Trinity, the concept of purgatory is implied in the Holy Writ itself.

Practical understanding

The Catechism lay out a few very strong biblical truths and foundations to what purgatory is. Purgatory is final purification or final sanctification of a soul. Practically think of Heaven as the public swimming pool. A person before he may enter the pool must first take a shower to cleanse himself from impurities that can get in the water. Purgatory then is the shower that one must go through before entering the pool. The soap and cleansing fiery water is the Holy Spirit cleansing you so you can enter the pool(the glories of heaven).

God lays down several biblical planks and facts that allude to the reality of purgatory.

1) There can be no sin or anything unclean can enter into heaven (Rev 21:27)

2) Jesus told us we must be perfect (Matt 5:48). For unless we completely die to ourselves and take our cross we cannot follow him. For if we wish to save our lives we must loose our lives ie..our selfishness and sinfulness(LK 9:23-25). God needs to perfect us because there is no non-perfection in heaven and Christ is the only one that can perfect us by virtue of his cross.

3) Most of us are not perfect when we die and many of us are still sinning by the time we die. We may have left over selfishness and sinful desires and attachments to our souls and God needs to fully sanctify us so we may see Gods glory in heaven,


4) Logically then God must purify our souls and give us the sanctification we need to enter in heaven and see him face to face. He does this by a purifying, sanctifying, cleansing, purgatorial fire of his love as indicated in both old and new testaments. So then Purgatory is Christ applying sanctification by virtue of the cross to us. The Cross was redemption accomplished. Purgatorial sanctification is redemption applied personally to us.

Old testament allusions to Purgatorial cleansing and sanctification in general.

“And he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy, every one who has been recorded for life in Jerusalem, when the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning.”(Isaiah 4:4)

And I said: "Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!"Then flew one of the seraphim to me, having in his hand a burning coal which he had taken with tongs from the altar.] And he touched my mouth, and said: "Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin forgiven."(Isaiah 6:5-7)

The prophet Malachi also alludes to this purgatorial cleansing:

“But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears?
"For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap; he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD.(Mal 3:2-4)

 

[Athanasias]

Part II to my opening statement on purgatory

There are several ways, which a person can be sanctified/purified biblically. A person is sanctified by Gods grace at his Holy Baptism (1 Cor 6:11, Eph 5:26), a person is sanctified and gains wisdom and holiness throughout his life when he suffers (James 1:2-4, 12, 5:10-11; Rom 5:3-5; 1 Pet 5:10). A person is also sanctified by God’s purifying fire when he suffers in purgatory at the end of this lifetime if he indeed has leftover sinfulness. St Paul spoke of this.

St Paul alludes to the purgatorial concept

“According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw -- each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”(1 Cor 3:10-15).

Here St. Paul speaks about this purifying fire that will purge the individual bad works away from the person and refine them. In this verse St. Paul, alludes to the Jewish concept of Gods fiery purification which was already found in the old testament in Malachi 3 and Isaiah 4 and 6 and applies it to the Christian theology of the afterlife and sanctification. Notice that when the individual is judged by God he will be saved! Purgatory is only for saved Christians and not the eternally damned. But those in purgatory will suffer loss and it will hurt as Paul says (As is common in most biblical sanctification). They suffer the loss of their selfish sinful ways so as to be purified and enter the glories of heaven.

St. Paul also prays for the dead in the new testament (2 Tim 1:16-18) when he prays for Onesiphhorus. Paul here utilizes a ancient Jewish custom of praying for the dead also known as the mourners kuddish. Here Paul applies that to Christian theology and practice thus alluding to purgatory. After all if the dead are in heaven then no prayer is needed and if the dead are in hell then no prayer can help them!

St Paul shows us a powerful thing here. Just like when we suffer in this life our friends can pray to God and ask him to help us get through it. So too in the after life can we pray for one another and ask God to help our deceased friends get through their suffering in purgatory.

Jesus Our Lord himself alludes to the concept of Purgatory.

Our Lord also teaches us that if we want to see heaven we must not have sinfulness on our soul when we die and we must make friends with our accusers or else we will put into prison (a temporary place of suffering) when we are judged. We will not get out until we have paid the last penny (until we have been purified and made completely sanctified Matt 5:25-26). Jesus alludes to the purgatorial concept. For Heaven is not a prison and we can never get out of hell its eternal. So Christ here speaks of a place or state of being that one will suffer temporarily in if he is does not have perfect charity for his accuser. That is a great example of the Catholic concept of purgatory.

Jesus also says:

“And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”.(Matt 12:32) Here Christ alludes to purgatory again. For there can be sins that can be forgiven not only in this age but the age to come ie..the afterlife, Jesus himself speaks this which connects to the old testament purgatorial purification where those who stood before God Full presence in heaven had to have their sins forgiven first(Isaiah 6:5-7).

These passages of scripture always have been used and believed to teach the purgatorial concept form the earliest times in the Christian Church.

Early Christian witnesses to the scriptural purgatorial concept

“It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing [Matt 5:25-26]; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering [1 Cor 3:10-15]. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord" ( Cyprian of Carthage Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).

St. Augustine is a favorite of protestants especially bible only Lutherans and Calvinist. They read and admire his writings and they know he is a orthodox theologian and not a heretic and yet Augustine naturally teaches purgatory using (1 Cor 3:10-15) the same passages that Catholics today use to teach it.

“"That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire [1 Cor 3:10-15]" ( St. Augustine Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity 18:69 [A.D. 421]).

Summing up

Given the solid biblical concepts mentioned above taken from both old and new testaments and the early Christians as they knew purgatory existed, it makes complete sense then to see purgatory as a scriptural thing. Infact it is hard to imagine how protestants could not see it as scriptural. I look forward to reading my worthy opponent s responses. God bless him and all who have read this.

 

[Hentenza]

This concludes the first round.

 

[Athanasias]

I will now begin my second round which will come in 3 parts but not longer than 5000 words.

Part I

Opening Statement

I must point out, however, that a detail regarding purgatory is conspicuously absent from the description above. Purgatory, if Catholic teaching on the matter is to be believed, IS a place, and there is “time” there.

I would like to thank my brother in Christ and worthy opponent for his enlightening comments and lively debate so far. I must correct my opponent first on a few things though. It is my opponent who has the burden of proof here. Not I. The Catholic side does not have to prove purgatory. It is my opponent who has to prove its non- existence as he seems to deny the purgatorial concept that the scripture and the early Christians spoke of. This has not been answered yet.

He seems to misunderstand the doctrine. In Catholic theology the concept of purgatory is a state of being where one undergoes final sanctification (Via Christ cross applied to them so they enter the glories of heaven). To show this is official Catholic teaching all one has to do is look to the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (A shorter Catechism released by the Vatican that also states our official teaching) which states that purgatory is a state of being(CCCC 210).

Theologians conjecture whether or not this sanctifying state of being happens in a place or not. The Church has never officially stated and various theologians debate. Also the Church never officially speaks whether or not this sanctification happen instantaneously after death or takes 10000000000000000 years. We ultimately do not know how time and space work in the after life. I and other theologians of the church suspect this happens over a period of time although not time in the sense we understand on earth. So we Catholics do as the ancient Jews would do and as St. Paul himself did and we pray for the departed souls( 2 Tim 1:16-18) who may undergo this painful sanctification of fire upon judgement(1 Cor 3:15).


Ladies and gentlemen my worthy opponent is wrongly looking for a passage in scripture that speaks merely of a specific purgatorial “place”. What he should be looking for is evidence that scripture indicates that sanctification/purification is a process and that one must be completely sanctified to enter heaven. Remember purgatory is defined as in our official teaching as the Catholic Compendium and Catechism show as a state of purification or sanctification the soul undergoes to be able to enter heaven because there is no sin in heaven. My opponent therefore is using a straw man argument to try to disprove the Catholic concept of purgatory which is implied in scripture as I have shown. What Purgatory is defined as is a state of final purification or sanctification for souls who are destined for heaven.


This is one thing he has avoided well. So it is worth repeating. Heaven requires perfection as Jesus instructed us(Matt 5:48) . If purgatory is merely a state of final sanctification of soul so as to perfect you and if nothing unclean or sinful can enter heaven(Rev 21:27), and if most of us are still sinning and are not prefect when we die, then it seems logical and biblical that God will somehow perfect us or sanctify us completely so we can enter heaven. That is the concept of purgatory. That is just biblical common sense ladies and gentlemen.

Purgatory then should be no problem for the protestant and my opponent to agree with unless my opponent has a problem with the bibles teaching on sanctification of souls. After all the bible teaches that sanctification is a thing of the past(1 Cor 6:11), The present(1 Thess 5:23), and Future(1 Cor 3:15).

Therefore, what we have is a variety of verses that supposedly allude to this place, while never verifying its existence at all. While I suppose for the purpose of this debate,. For instance, when Jesus stated in Matthew 10:16…“I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.”Some have made this the allusion that they base the teaching that Jesus, after his ascension, then made his way to the Americas to teach here. Something that I’d warrant that neither you nor I believe hold any water, but using the same methodology, can be called “true” by the ones who so claim it.

Here my opponent wrongly compares the Catholic Church and her teachings to the Mormon Church and her teachings. By trying to compare the two he is trying to down play or eliminate all the verses of I showed that shown purgatorial evidence in sacred scripture. This I will call him on and ask him to be more honest with his debate tactics. I used to minister to Mormons. Indeed if I wanted to I could easily compare protestant teachings to Mormon teachings to try to dispel any evidence he gives but I will not do that because I know that Protestants are Christians and Mormons are not. Likewise to compare Catholicism and its methods of exegesis and doctrine to Mormons is absurd and Protestants scholars themselves know this. Mormonism is a cult founded in the 1830’s by a man who was proned to hallucinogenic drugs. Catholicism on the other hand is the first Christian Church that goes back to Christ and the apostles (a fact admitted by secular and even protestant historians which I would be happy to display).

There is no historical evidence that Christ appeared to the Americas or that verse in Matt 10 was ever to be taken that way for the first 1800 years of the church. However there is strong historical evidence that the early Christians held to the scriptures as teaching a purgatorial concept and perhaps even stronger evidence that there never was any problems with teaching among Christians. This was a early Church who was devout and used sacred scripture to preach constantly. They preached the purgatorial concept using the same passages Catholic today use as I have shown. They could spot heresy in the blink of a eye and there were many heretics. Indeed when major problem or heresy arose in the early Church councils were called to deal with the heresies. Yet no one had a problem, with the purgatorial concept taught in scripture until the reformation some 1500 later.

No early councils called to correct the concept of purgatory they just naturally understood it was apostolic teaching based on sacred scripture and the long standing practices of the Christian Church. In other words my opponent wants us to believe that the Christian Church lost their way about understanding sanctification for 1500 years until Luther came around and fixed this purgatorial teaching. Is that really so? Now who uses Mormon tactics (Like sweeping aside early church history and its evidence) to preach what they want to believe?

Also, unlike Mormons Catholics are not the only ones who look to sacred scripture and see the purgatorial concept taught. One of the most influential protestant theological minds in the 20th century hailed by all Christians for his defense of the Christian faith and books, C.S Lewis, also believed in the concept of Purgatory and he saw it very implied in sacred scripture as Catholics do. Likewise Protestant scholar Darwell Stone also spoke about purgatorial concepts in sacred scripture. So my opponents comparison to Catholics methods of exegesis and Mormons are simply ridiculous and only meant to fool others and to enact the fallacy of poisoning the well so they would disregard the biblical concepts and evidence of purgation that have been long taught and believed in the Christian church. I cannot let someone smokescreen that.


Also my opponent acted like he has problems with doctrines that are only alluded to or implicit in sacred scripture as he thinks they do not “Hold Water”. The problem, with that is that he himself holds to a doctrine in sacred scripture that is only alluded to or implied namely the Blessed Trinity. Likewise the majority of bible only Christians such as Lutherans, Episcopalians, Methodist, Presbyterians, United Church of Christ, etc look to sacred scripture and see other doctrines such as infant baptism that are alluded to or implicit only in sacred scripture. So the just because a Catholic uses implicit evidence in sacred scripture to show the purgatorial concept does not mean that those doctrines do not exist and should not be regarded as doing so nor does it mean that we employ methods that cults(Like Mormons) use to exegete sacred scripture.

 

[Athanasias]

Part II

Old Testament allusions to Purgatorial cleansing and sanctification in general, Rebuttal.

One must go back all the way to Isaiah 2:12 to discover the context to which this passage applies. The entire discourse leading up to the passage provided, is in regards to the Day of the Lord. It does not speak of a place of purgation at all….Ignoring context of scripture is Eisegesis

Ladies and gentlemen my opponent again misunderstands the evidence I bring up and the concept of purgatory. He again is looking for a direct explicit statement in these passages to say there is a physical place where one suffers for a time called purgatory. The understanding for purgatory is implicit and not explicit and it is defined as a state of being sanctified completely before being in Gods presence in heaven. I corrected that in my earlier rebuttal. He seemed also to not understand the implicit evidence I was giving from the Old Testament. The Catholic Church and I do not say that these Old Testament passages speak specifically of the full blown dogma of purgatory! We do not eisegete the sacred scriptures. I was not giving a textual exegesis of the scriptures historical meaning. My Old Testament classes and Catholic Bible commentaries do go into those things. Rather what my opening subtitle to these passages said were “Old Testament allusions to Purgatorial cleansing and sanctification in general.” What that means is the Old Testament verifies that God cleanses and sanctifies and purifies his people to enter his presence and he does it by burning and fire. This is a form of sanctification that purges God people. You cannot be in Gods full presence, the beatific vision in heaven, and have sin or be unsanctified (Rev 21:27). Yet we all are not prefect yet and have sin when we die. The case I was building here is to show that Isaiah and Malachi spoke of the need to to be cleansed, sanctified by a burning before he could ever enter Gods presence and God promise to do that. This does relate to the concept of purgatory because ultimately that is what the biblical concept Purgatory is! St ,Paul relates it to the purification by fire in judgment that we will undergo before we can enter heaven(1 Cor 3:15).

My opponent likely thinks that this lynchpin verse will support the teaching of Purgatory. …For the day. In that day. This is in regards to a specific day, NOT that of an indeterminate time in a place of purgation. Using the passage in context, it can be rightly stated that the judgment of the believers, which we will all undergo, will be a day where our works are scrutinized, and the unworthy works, the wood hay and straw, will be “burned” away. Also note, that the passage mentions rewards, in which the believer is rewarded based on the building they made on the foundation, and has nothing to do with purifying of the soul, rather, speaks solely to the eradication of works that we may have held as worthy, but were no more than straw in the economy of Heaven. The passage states nothing in regards to a purging prior to admittance to Heaven.

My worthy opponent has made yet another common mistake. He has rightly pointed out that what is being spoken here is the Day. What is the day? How long is a day??? We do not know how time works in the after life as the day spoken of here is the day of judgment. Remember 1 day can be a 10000 years to the Lord. God told Adam that if he ate of the fruit of the forgbideen tree he would die that "day"(Gen 2:17) yet Adam lived much longer then that. So waht does day mean?? I suspect my opponant may view the day as a day other than the particular or final judgment of God. Numerous protestants since the reformation have eisegeted the passage this way so they will not have to deal with the purgatorial reality. When he does this he is simply following the man made tradition of protestant reformer John Calvin who also denied this in his commentaries. What is the day Paul refers to? It is the day of judgment by God and where we will be judged according to our works and either enter heaven or hell St. Paul connects his eschatological understanding of this verse in 1 Cor 3 to Matt 7:22. Here Paul addresses the sanctification that just ones will get before entering eternal salvation. They will be “saved but only as fleeing through fire”, and they will “suffer” according to St. Paul. This is exactly the type of sanctification the Catholic Church has always described purgatory as. It is no doubt that they will receive a reward based upon how they led their lives once purgation is done. If the work the man has built on the foundation survives he will receive ea reward. Those who do not survive end up in hell by implication. Those who do are purged and eventually will receive the reward of heaven and the crowns they deserve but not until they suffer and flee through the purging fire of God. That does not destroy this verse or the concept of purgatory at all rather it shows it quite nicely.

The “prayer for the dead” of Onesiphorus perplexes me……. The passage does, as all the above, NOTHING to confirm the existence of Purgatory.

Quite the opposite is true. This passage implies purgatory quite nicely and many protestant commentators are aware of that so in their commentaries they try to do damage control. Since Paul already knows that one on the “day” of judgment God will judge and purge the saved person( 1 Cor 3:15) so he can enter salvation and be rewarded Paul now applies the ancient Jewish custom of praying for the dead souls to get to heaven to Onesiphorus as Paul knows that we can pray for the body of Christ suffering and God will help their suffering along and grant them salvation.

It is key because St. Paul prays to God to be merciful to him on the “Day” of judgment. The same “Day” that Paul mentions in 1 Cor 3:15 when he speaks about purging fire of sanctification that souls receive when being judged. So there is one purgatorial connection. He is praying for his soul. He is praying for a dead man. He also prays for his living family as we also do at funerals in the Catholic mass. It is also noteworthy that my observation was never answered at all by my opponent. It is funny that my opponent has ignored my points I will repeat them again. This passage also implies purgatory in a second connection because Paul is praying for the dead. Now if this man were in heaven already then no prayer would be needed. And if he was in hell then no prayer could ever get him out and it would be useless for Paul to do such a thing…. unless he knows that a person might be being purged and sanctified at judgment time.

Matthew 5:25-26 is offered as an allusion to purgatory by our Lord, and it is probably the most distressing example of lacking context than all the other passages. To believe that this passage is in regards to purgatory, you would have to then believe that Jesus was giving a discourse regarding life on this earth, for two verses, switched it to a completely separate and alluded meaning, and then switched back as he continued.The topics that Jesus was expounding on ranged from murder, to hatred, divorce, adultery. ….The allusion to purgatory in this passage is utterly absent. This is Eisegesis at its most complete.

Now I will reveal how my opponent is actually the one committing eisegeses and not the Catholic Church. The context of Matt 5 deals with two things one how we should act and two how we are judged eternally. So eternal judgment is in the immediate context. Beginning with the beatitudes Jesus , the new Moses, gives us the new law of love and how we are to act. He directly relates this action to our judgment in heaven. For Great will be your reward in heaven for persecution….(Matt 5:10-11). Again keeping with the context when Jesus speaks about things like Lust he warns not to it for it is a mortal sin and can send you to the judgment of hell(Matt 5:30). Indeed He tell us that our righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees or we will not enter the kingdom of heaven (Matt 5:20). So contextually here my opponent runs into a wall. He must deny the immediate context speak about judgment if he is to deny the purgatorial concept. Jesus here shows a very strong evidence for purgatorial sanctification. All the other cases in Matt 5 Jesus warned about doing something that can send you to hell like lusting. He also taught that if we are persecuted and are faithful we will see heaven but now in these verses Jesus throws you for a loop. He mentions neither or heaven nor hell in context of judgment but warns that if we do not make friends with our accuser we will be thrown into first a place of suffering (prison) where we will never get out until we have paid the last penny. Now ask yourself this. Is heaven a prison?? No! Is hell a place you can ever get out?? No! Then there must be intermediate state where one does suffer and get out of by paying the last penny (being purged) right? This is the concept of purgatory very plainly and in context of judgment it connects nicely to St. Paul’s own statements on 1 Cor 3:10-15..

 

[Athanasias]

Part III

Matt 12:32….. This passage offered does nothing to confirm the existence of purgatory……and is by far the weakest eisegetical allusion offered so far. .

My opponent makes one mistake. He forgets to look at what the passage also implies, namely that there are sins that can be forgiven even after this life. This is only a hint to purgation but it is a hint. Especially given that there are no sins in heaven and that most us are sinning by the time we die. God must somehow purge us and sanctify us before we can enter heaven. And that is the concept of purgatory.

So often forwarded as proof, as the belief that if they can pull of the “this has been taught from day one” argument, That it might lend some credence to what it is they are saying. I will not go in to too much detail on the “Early Christian witnesses” that are listed, save this. The “from the beginning” argument is unproven, as the earliest passage that can be offered is 3rd century, and another from the 5th. I have no illusion that the concept of purgatory did not develop; its mere presence is proof positive that it did, indeed develop over time. The fact that a belief developed over time, is moot to whether or not it is true, or taught by the authors of the scriptures, or their contemporaries. Unless my opponent is capable of proving outside of centuries later sources, he has failed to derive the proof required from the scriptures as we had previously discussed.

My opponent would like to illogically poo poo on any historical evidence I may bring up. Well I don lot blame him for that given that the historical evidence is against him strongly and shows early Christians preaching about purgatory and utilizing the same scriptures I brought up. I list these for those Christians who do read church history and who would like to know that there is evidence for it. I utilized mostly scripture for this debate and only marginalized the fathers as side evidence as I promised but evidence is evidence and my opponent has no good reason why his own private interpretation of the bible is better or more precise then these key preachers interpretation of the bible was in the early church. If anything they are closer to the time of Christ and have a handed down a long standing practice and teaching from the apostles. So if the are wrong because they are 300 or 400 years removed from Christ then so much worse for him and protestants today who are 2009 hundred years removed from the time of Christ. Funny because non –Trinitarians also use the same false argument that my opponent uses when they object to the Nicean Creed and Trinity. They state that the council was some 295 years removed from Christ so the teaching of the Trinity can’t be real. Sound familiar? My Opponent also fails to understand doctrine in general. He complains that the fuller understanding of purgatory did not come about until the 3rd century and he argues that because it had to develop it must be false. Well he must not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity then.

The Trinity like purgatory is merely implied strongly in sacred scripture. In the first 170 years of the Christian church the term Trinity did not even arise and its concepts were still debated somewhat. After time developed(hundreds of years) so did the understanding of the doctrine. Eventually 325 years later its main properties were hammered out at the first Nicean council(325 A.D.). And then even after that they had to be more hammered out at the Council of Constantinople(381 A.D.). Then years later Christ nature and hios mother were hammered out at other councils(Ephesus 431 A,D. and Chalcedon 451 A.D.). All of these things were scriptural and implied in early history but as time grew God gave his Church a deeper and deeper understanding of these truths till we got the full blown dogmas we do today.

This is called the development of doctrine and even protestant ministers and apologist admit that doctrine does develop over time as with the Trinity. So he cannot use that argument and try to say that just because something was implicit in scripture and developed over time it is not true or else he will have to say the same thing about the Trinity and the hypostatic union and nature of Christ which are doctrines which have developed and are in scripture implicitly.

continued:

Hebrews 10:14 states emphatically, He HAS made perfect for ever those who are being made Holy.”

Can those who God has, in his sight, made perfect, thanks only to the shed blood of Christ, require purging?

Hebrews 10:2 is also telling……..How, can someone, who is cleansed once and for all, require purging after death?

My opponent to understand things the way he does must deny that Christians can sin after they are saved and those sins can have any effect on their sanctification and salvation. This is where my opponent errors strongly. Two things. First of all they very same passage my opponent quotes to disprove purgatory actually alludes to purgatory. Purgatory is the continuation of sanctification.

This indeed is the big argument that separates some Protestants with Catholics (although some Evangelicals would agree with us). Some Protestants tend to view sanctification as a one time event. Catholics and the bible view it as a process throughout life and even death. Sanctification is a process biblically as I have shown and not a one time event. It has a ongoing action in the believers life and Hebrews shows this. Heb 10:14 clearly shows us that sanctification is a ongoing event in life and not a one time thing. Christ did perfect those who are “Being sanctified” not just who have been sanctified on a one time event! Likewise other passages in the bible show that even after a initial sanctification at baptism (1 Cor 6:11) people continue to grow in sanctification as it is a process ( 1 Thess 4:1,3, 1 Thess 5:23, Heb 2:11). Paul and Jesus show us that sanctification of suffering happens even after death to purify us to enter heaven(1 Cor 3:15, Matt 5:25-26). We grow in sanctification and need continual sanctification because we can commit sins that make our sanctification of the cross useless to us(Heb 10:26-30).

In the Old Testament the high priest had offer the blood of goats and bulls continually as those sacrifices had no power to really save for they were just a shadow of the good things to come in Christ. Christ Jesus offers himself once and for all in a bloody manner on the cross and his grace and power do save us and sanctify us. But as Hebrews 10 also states we can throw that away and make the cross and our sanctification useless to us by our disobedience and sin. So even though Christ sacrifice is powerful and does open the gates and will sanctify us we must also personally appropriate that sanctification in our lives on earth by being faithful and not committing sin and by repenting.

If someone dies and has some leftover selfishness attached to their soul then they cannot enter the glories of heaven. For there is nothing impure in heaven(Rev 21:27). This selfishness must be purged. So Christ applies his continual sanctification(from his cross) to a the person so they can enter heaven. His one sacrifice does perfect all. He just gives this perfection of his one sacrifice gradually in the life of the believer depending upon how we appropriate it.

Numerous passages also state that God remembers our sin no more. How can God not remember our sin, yet still have us go through Purgation to remove sins that he no longer recalls?

There are essentially two problems with my opponents understanding of this objection. 1). God does forgive and not remember sins no more as scripture states. However you must confess your sins to have them forgiven (1 Jn 1:8-9). He will sanctify you then but this sanctification and cleanse you but this cleansing is a ongoing action as the rest of the bible shows and not just a one time event. What about those who die and have not confessed to there sins of selfishness? I would say the majority of people die unknowingly perhaps from a heart attack or car accident etc. They may not have had time to confess every little sin they did. There conscious might still be attached to the things of this world. Unless you think that every Christian dies in a state of utter perfection you have a problem. I know no one on earth who is perfect do you? Yet heaven has no imperfections does it? So then you would you admit that God must sanctify this person so as to perfect him to enter heaven? This is the concept of Purgatory!


2) The second problem you have is this. Although God does forgiven sins and does not remember them he still chooses to give his children temporary punishments due to their sin. This is extremely biblical! The most obvious example of this is pain during childbirth. Although Christian women are forgiven of their sins (original and actual) by virtue of their baptism(Act 22:16) they still go through terrible Birth pains as a temporal punishment due to the original sin of our parents(Gen 3:16). Even though God forgave David about his sins of adultery he still had to suffer the loss of a son as a temporal punishment (2 Sam 12:13-14). Likewise in Numbers 14:13-23 even though God pardons his people he still imposes a temporary penalty on them by keeping them from the Promised Land. Okay so God even though he does forgive and not remember the sins of another still choose to impose temporary punishments on his people even after they are forgiven. Purgatory as such is also described by Holy Mother Church as a temporary punishment. In other words even though God forgives you of this sin as he did all throughout the bible you will still have to the suffer the punishment of cleansing fire to sanctify your soul as Paul shows in 1 Cor 3:15.

On a practical level one can explain it like this. A boy throws a ball threw the neighbors window. That is his sin. He confesses to his daddy that he did it. Dad forgives him and will not remember or hold a grudge against him for it later. The window still needs to be replaced. Only the Dad(Jesus) can pay for it. So he does(With the Cross), But now the son is still punished and is grounded for 2 weeks so he will go through pains of grounding but they will help make him a better person in the long run. This is a great way to understand purgatory that I teach to children and adults!

Well Again I thank UphillBattle for such a good debate so far. I ask God to bless him and all who read this. And I look forward to hearing his next rebuttal. As the next round will be answering the rebuttal and closing statements. God bless all of you!

 

[Hentenza]

This concludes round 2 and begins the closing posts.

 

[Athanasias]

Part I of my closing remarks.

Ladies and Gentlemen, my Christian brothers and sisters of the various protestant faiths, and my Catholic brothers and sisters who are reading this peace be with you! We have come to the end of this debate. I would like to thank Uphillbattle for his great thought provoking debate skills. It has been a interesting debate with him and I ask the Lord Jesus to bless him because he is my brother although we disagree on certain issues in this debate. I would love to debate him on the protestant dogma of sola scriptura in the future. I will now begin with my closing arguments.

Closing statement.

My opponent tried very hard in this debate to give the impression to the readers that purgatorial concepts are not found anywhere in sacred scripture. He was able to do this because he created his own version of what purgatory is instead of using the official teaching of the Catholic church which I presented. Since my opponent falsely tried to create his own version of purgatory(even after he was corrected) and claim it is a actual place, he could easily disavow any clear biblical references to the purgatorial concepts I gave.

He stated:

Nobody has denied that we require cleansing. This is not the issue. What is being debated is the existence of Purgatory, a place where people are cleansed after their death. In all three OT passages offered, this is not the case.

.

Ahh but if my opponent actually listened to what purgatory actually is he would know that the issue is cleansing, sanctification/purification and not a place! Being purged means to be cleansed and not a place! Just like sanctification here on earth does not mean a place, sanctification after we die is not a place but a state of being. Thus I have exposed his false definiton and the entire reason why he rejects any biblical evidence I give for purgatory. Do not be fooled! His attempt to poison the well of biblical evidence I give by using a straw man argument is simply dishonest. I will call him on that!

Ladies sand gentlemen I am not secretly trying to downplay the purgatorial reality as my opponent suggest by “replacing” the concept with “a state of being” or condition of the soul. That is simply our official Catholic teaching. Purgatory is the state of final purification or sanctification of a individual. It’s not a place! Our Church does not officially define it as a place. Our Compendium, the official church teaching in a small Catechism does not define it as so. Both Popes John Paul II and Benedict the XVI in their writings did not define purgatory as a place but as a state of being, namely the state of final sanctification/purification. Just like sanctification on earth is not a place nor is final sanctification a place in the after life! Whether this final sanctification takes place in some realm, or not we do not know because we do not know how space works in the afterlife and divine revelation is silent on this so “some” scholars conjecture and that is why sometimes you will read purgatory in reference to a place but it is never defined as such by official Catholic sources nor is it understood that way by the Church . It is not a place. It is final sanctification period.

My opponent wants to act like I am trying to lie to you to avoid finding purgatorial concepts in scripture. I am not. I understand he must do that because he gives you a false definition of purgatory and then he expects me to find a “place” in scripture and then when I can’t he says “See there is no concept of purgatory in the bible”. My opponent here is being dishonest and is using a straw man argument to try to fool people. Do not be fooled.


We can say in a mere human sense “go to purgatory”. Some protestants and non Catholics may wrongly deduce from this phraseology that purgatory is a place. But we do not teach it is! It is a state of being or condition of existence. Consider this. People are taught that heaven is above and hell is below. Does that mean that heaven hell must exist in certain special coordinates between earth literally???? No. Mankind can only explain things in terms "analogous" to human existence. This is why when Jesus spoke of how we are supposed to lead our lives on earth and the judgment that comes after it explains this concept using the analogy of a prison where you would not get out till you have paid the last penny(Matt 5:25-26). But this does not mean that it is a actual place. It is the process of purification/sanctification.

The Vatican released Compendium or shorter Catechism contains the official teaching of the church and is a norm for teaching. It states:

“Purgatory is the state of those who die in God’s friendship, assured of their eternal salvation, but who still have need of purification to enter into the happiness of heaven.”

Pope John Paul II said

“Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church's teaching on purgatory. The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence.”------(taken from his General Audience of Wednesday, 4 August 1999,)

The Catechism our official teaching never teaches it’s a place but rather shows its purification/cleansing.

“1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned”(CCC 1030-1031).

So if my opponent as he did in his writings admits that cleansing is need then he should have no problem with purgatory! Debate is over. The Catholic side has won!


What I have shown is that the bible teaches over and over again that one must be perfect, sinless and sanctified to be with Gods full presence and enter heaven. This is biblical, as I have shown above. For nothing unclean will enter heaven (Rev 21:27). And no one will see God unless they are completely holy (sanctified) (Heb 12:14, Eph 5:3-5,). But holiness/sanctification comes through many means biblically. It comes by baptism initially(1 Cor 6:11) and through suffering(Rom 5:3-5, 2 Cor 1:5, 12:7-9, James 1:2-4, 12, 5:10-11, 1 Pet 5:10). My opponent wants us to take a passage clearly out of context in Hebrews and try to make it look like complete sanctification for a individual is just a passed event. But the bible show us that sanctification of souls is a ongoing process, It is a thing of the past( Heb 10 :29) The present(1 Thess 5:23) and the future(1 Cor 3:10-15). It I also showed that God sanctifies individuals to be in his presence by a spirit of burning and purifying fire that cleanses and forgives sins and does away with impurity (Isaiah 6:5-7, Mal 3:2-4) . This is something that the Old Testament passages in Isaiah and Malachi show and that is why I include them as they teach purgatorial concepts as well as some of the New Testament passages such as(Lk 3:16) which allude to Baptism and purgatorial burning and cleansing in general. St. Paul speaking of that same day of judgment tell us that we will undergo this purification by the fire that Malachi 3:2-4 the prophet alludes to in the Old Testament whereas we will be tested and flee through this cleaning fire purifying us as Gold and Silver, and burning away our Wood, Hay, and Stubble(1 Cor 3:12) ie..our left over selfishness and dross(Isaiah 1: 25) or works that are attached to us (see 1 Cor 3:10-15). This is a form of final sanctification so as one can enter the glories of heaven. For “we” will be saved but only as fleeing through this painful purgatorial fire that the prophets alluded to.

We will suffer loss( 1 Cor 3:15) and it will hurt as Paul says because suffering a loss to sin hurts us as we have grown a liking or attachment to our sinful ways. Ask a recovering alcoholic(my dad is one) if it hurts them to initially to quit drinking. It indeed is a sanctifying process for them as God cleanses them from their addiction but they suffer loss which actually hurts them initially on the inside. God's sanctification to us can hurt and even seem as a punishment at times(Heb 12:5). Often times dying to our sinful ways and self does hurt but remember that the Lord only punishes us to sanctify us or make us holy(Heb 12:10). And we need to be completely holy (sanctified) to see the Lord(Heb 12:14, Eph 5:3-5). For he only punishes those whom he loves and chastises those whom he receives (Heb 12:6). And to receive us we must be Holy so this sanctification of fire, this temporary punishment of painful sanctification is something we must all go through in the end unite us to him. After all our God is a consuming Fire (Heb 12:29) and his fire of love will not let us bring sin or a unsanctified soul into heaven. So he will purge us till we are completely sanctified.



My opponent wants to deny all that, How he can I do not know. Perhaps he is using a black highlighter in his bible! Later in the debate I will look to this verse In 1 Cor 3 closely to show that it clearly does teach purgatory. Given that even a justified person when he dies is not perfect or sinless or completely sanctified yet (no one is perfect, sinless, or completely sanctified on earth by the time we die) and given that we may have some unconfessed sins on our soul and attachments in our conscious to sin when we die, and given that in heaven there are no imperfections or sin then biblically it makes sense that God must purify or sanctify souls so they may be with him in heaven sometime after death but before entrance into heaven. This is the teaching of purgatory! It clearly has biblical warrant whether my opponent wants to admit it or not and I think those who look to the actual teaching and the passages in scripture can see the biblical connection. If my opponent disagrees with this he will have to show and prove to the audience and myself how he or any Christian is absolutely perfect and completely sanctified in every way before death. I would love to see how he can do this.

Given then that most Protestants agree that one must be perfect and completely sanctified before they can enter heaven and God will perfect them, and given that most protestants also admit that they are not perfect when they die then they should have no problem with believing in the general concept of purgatory! And if they can get that far in understanding it I am pleased and so is God and I have done my service here well. The only difference is that Protestants think its all done all at one time and Catholics view this as being a process. Both sides do agree that this biblically does happen though. Debate then should be over for the main part. Most Protestants then believe in 98% of what Catholics do on the doctrine of Purgatory already.

My opponent does not understand why Catholics or St. Paul or the early Christians prayed for the dead who are going through this purging state. We do not pray for the dead to lessen their time in the way he thinks! We hope that in praying for them God will give them strength and there passing in this state will be easy in Gods time. There sanctification is painful and our prayers may aid them. Period. Just like we pray for those dying of cancer who are suffering (being sanctified) hear on earth. The Catholic Church does not speak about nor even knows how long a person could go through this state. We do not know how time works in the afterlife! It is a rumor of that dates back to corruption in the middle ages that says that we do this to lessen time in purgation because we know how and when one will be made completely sanctified. It is a process that we cannot measure with time in our understanding on earth. Some corrupt and ignorant priest and clergy in the middle ages no doubt abused these teachings and since then the reformation and reformers have been weary and have believed rumors that we teach that if I pray for aunt Gertrude tomorrow she will get out of purgatory in only a hundred years or so. This is not the case. We pray for the dead because they are suffering. We pray that God get them through their suffering and that they can be with him in heaven soon just like we pray for those on earth who are suffering. We get this concept from the Jews, from scripture, and St. Paul . We do not pray for them to reduce their time by 1000 years or so on. We cannot know how long a person may go through this fire. Catholic theologians have also suggested that this purgation could be instantaneous (in our earthly understanding) or it could take 10000000000 years we just do not know how time works in the after life.

Pope Benedict put it this way.

"The transforming 'moment' of this encounter cannot be quantified by the measurements of earthly time. It is, indeed, not eternal but a transition, and yet trying to qualify it as of 'short' or 'long' duration on the basis of temporal measurements derived from physics would be naive and unproductive. The 'temporal measure' of this encounter lies in the unsoundable depths of existence, in a passing over where we are burned ere we are transformed. To measure such Existenzzeit, such an 'existential time,' in terms of the time of this world would be to ignore the specificity of the human spirit in its simultaneous relationship with, and differentiation from, the world…………..[Purgatory] is the inwardly necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints…….."Encounter with the Lord is this transformation." --Joseph Ratzinger, Eschatology: Death and Eternal Life, p. 230-231.

 

[Athanasias]

Part II Closing statements

In our own limited understanding Theologians have looked to scripture to indicate there are two judgments. These judgments are the particular or individual judgment of a soul when we die(Heb 9:27) and a general judgment(Matt 25:31-46). Because no one can be in Gods presence in heaven without being purified/sanctified completely and because we are sinful still when we die and because there is no sin in heaven, this Purification must take place sometime between the particular and general judgment of humans when they die. Christ alluded to this when he spoke of judgment that if we did not make friends with our accuser we will put into prison and not get out until we have paid the last penny(Matt 5:25-26) This is Something that the early Christians who preached the Christian message such as St. Augustine spoke of in the early Church. However we do not understand how time works in the afterlife. So to them it could be 1000000000000000 years or 1 second. One day as is a 1000 year to our Lord. Down here time is different. Adam was told he would die the very day he ate the fruit(Gen 2:17) yet he died years later. What does a day mean to God? Time in the after life and when judgment occurs to them only God knows. We do not know for sure how long it will take them to suffer the fire of purging. So we do as the Jews do and as St. Paul and the early Christians of the first 8 centuries of the Christian church did and we pray for the departed souls (2 Tim 1:16-18) who are suffering so they may see Gods salvation soon and be completely sanctified and find no more pain on the day of their judgment(Pain of separation from heaven and pain of purging fire that St. Paul’s speaks about suffering in 1 Cor 3: 10-15).

I believe my opponent has lost this debate because he or any Christian cannot deny these biblical truths.


Now I will address my opponents objections.

My opponent uses Heb 10:14 to try to disprove purgatory. He says:

Hebrews 10:14 states that he HAS made perfect, those who are being made Holy. We are positionally Perfected in the sight of God. He continues to make us more Holy, that is, set apart, but thanks be to God for his sacrifice of his Son, he declares us perfected. This was completely glossed over by my opponent in his response.

.


Ladies and gentlemen There are a few questions you need to ask yourself. First of all UPhillBattle admits that God continues to make us holy(sanctified). Then he should have no problem with the concept of purgatory because that is what the concept of purgatory is! (Making us Holy, sanctified, purified ie setting us apart from our worldly ways to be with God). So in essence by his own admission Uphillbattle just admitted and proved to us that purgatory is biblical. Thank you for finally admitting that Uphill. Debate again should now be over. The Catholic side has proven the point again and my opponent just admitted that. Amen!

What God declares he does. If he declares his Children perfect he will make them perfect, sanctify them completely. But God does not just do this at one time. He does this through out life and even death of a believer. Remember that sanctification, is a ongoing process, It is a thing of the past( Heb 10 :29) The present(1 Thess 5:23) and the future(1 Cor 3:10-15). Hebrews 12 specifically speaks of Honoring the old testament saints(which means Holy ones) in heaven who God has made perfect (Heb 12:23) while advocating that on earth a person must strive for this holiness of sanctification which without they shall not see God(Heb 12:14). Hence perfection or “complete” sanctification on earth has not happened yet. The rest of Hebrews 10 speak of those who commit mortal sins and spurn the blood of the covenant by which they “were sanctified” . What awaits them is hell(Heb 10:26-31). Does Uhpill believe that a person is completely perfect and sanctified on this earth, hence no attachments to sins, and yet these completely perfect people committed mortal sins? First of all if he does I would like to meet one completely sanctified perfect person. Can he show us one?? Show us one person who is completely sanctified and who does not sin daily on this earth??????? In heaven we will not be sinning nor have the desire to. So again God must purge us of this before we enter heaven. This is the concept of Purgatory!!!!!!!!

What has been made perfect is Christ one sacrifice compared to the multiple sacrifices that the high priest had to do (Which never really had the power to take away sins or sanctify). That is the context and comparison of Heb 10 generally (especially verses1-4) my friends. Hebrews 10:1-2 does allude that through Christ one perfect sacrifice we can be made perfect unlike the Jews whose multiple animal sacrifices could not make us perfect. This is something the Catholic Church teaches. Amen! The only question is how is this perfection of the Cross then is applied to the believer. Well the bible shows us that this perfection, this sanctification, is applied to the believer throughout his life and even after death according to St. Paul and Jesus.(1 Cor 3:15, Matt 5:25-26). The Perfect Sacrifice of Christ Cross is redemption and sanctification accomplished. Purgatory is that redemption and sanctification applied personally to us after death at judgment time(1 Cor 3:15).

My opponent does not believe that 1 Cor 3:10-15 teaches purgatory. His first problem is that he is looking for a place as we have already demonstrated and that is one of his issues. But he also objects saying:

Before Going on, I’d like to also note that for all the biblical evidence that has been presented, not ONE reference clearly or remotely states the existence of a “place” of Purgatory………….

……………[1 Cor 3:1-015] has nothing to do with purifying of the soul, rather, speaks solely to the eradication of works that we may have held as worthy, but were no more than straw in the economy of Heaven. The passage states nothing in regards to a purging prior to admittance to Heaven.

.

Again here take a look at the passage. How we are judged is going to be a result of how we led our lives (echoes Matt 25:31-46 ). If we led our lives on a foundation of wood hay and stubble(Some sinfulness) we will be purged by the fire of God and we ourselves will suffer loss. Paul connects his teaching here to Malachi’s. Paul speaks of the day of the Lord, ie judgment and contrast how our we ourselves will need to be purged or purified to enter heaven and see God. This is Purgatory!!!! Just as God purified the Sons of Levi and refined them like gold and silver(Mal 3:2-3) so too he will purify us and refine us as gold silver and precious stones sifted from our wood hay ands stubble( 1 Cor 3:12) and we ourselves will be saved(not just our good works but we ourselves) but only as we are fleeing through the fire. The eradification of works is going to hurt, as we ourselves will suffer loss. As I mentioned before suffering loss of any habit or sin is painful, ask an ex drug addict. So it is US and not just our works that will go through the fire. That is why we ourselves will be saved but only as through fire and not Our works alone will just go through the fire. We go through it to according to St.Paul. This clearly teaches what Catholics call Purgatory.



One more verse my opponent tried to fudge over is (Matt 5:25-26) . Matt 5 itself is a chapter where Jesus teaches us how to behave with good moral actions and our eternal consequences that result in our behavior if we do not. One example is if one lust after a women then one commits adultery and can go to hell for that sin(Matt 5:27-30). If one calls his brother a fool he shall liable to the judgment of hell(Matt 5:22). Jesus also shows us that a person needs to make friends with their accuser because in the end they will be going with them to court(Judgment). And the Judge(God) may hand them over to be thrown into prison(purgatory) where they will not get out until they have paid the last penny(until they have been purified and paid there due with suffering/sanctification). Now heaven is not a prison. Prison is a place of suffering and reform or sanctification. Hell one can never get out of ever? So what is this prison? The early Christians preaching this rightly suggested purgatory.

I now ask the Lord God to be with and sanctify more fully both Uphill Battle and myself. And I thank him for debating me. May God bless him and all who read this as they will be surprised by Catholic truth!

 

[Hentenza]

This concludes the formal debate. Those that have followed the debate can continue commenting in the peanut gallery thread. I want to thank both participants for their graciousness during this debate. Thank you both for participating.