Formal Debate - Baptism [moved from Formal Debate Proposals]

[dannybias46]

Baptism is God’s terms of surrender.
Baptism is our signal to God we have accepted Christ’s gospel.
Baptism is “calling on the name of the Lord.”
Baptism is being unified with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection.
Baptism is “clothing” ourselves with Christ.
Baptism is “accepting” Christ (on His terms, not ours)
Baptism is when our sins are forgiven.
Baptism is when we receive the Holy Spirit.
Baptism is how and when we come into contact with the blood of Christ.
Baptism is when we are reborn.
Baptism is an act of faith.
Baptism is how we enter the kingdom of God.
Baptism is when we are added to the body of Christ (the church).
Baptism is when we exchange our life for His.
Baptism is when we die to ourselves and come alive in Christ.
Baptism is the washing of regeneration, and renewal of the Holy Spirit.
Baptism is the starting gun of a race of a new life.
Baptism is proclaiming in Christ the resurrection of the dead.
Baptism is when the old dies and the new arises. In this manner we become saved.
Baptism is the point in time when we become saved.
Baptism is when we stop living for ourselves and start living for Jesus.
Baptism is how and when we scripturally make a conscious decision to dedicate our lives to Christ.
Baptism is how we scripturally enter into a relationship with Christ.
Baptism is the gavel striking the bench proclaiming forgiveness of sins, the end of the old and the birth of the new.

It is a rule of interpretation that things equal to one another can be substituted for the other in a passage and still grant the reader a perfect knowledge of what was meant.
Throughout the Book of Acts we see that Baptism follows repentance.
Acts 2:38 “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

Peter’s statement in Acts 2:38 came directly from the throne of God. When Peter said that baptism, coupled with faith and repentance, would obtain the remission of sins, one cannot – dare not – doubt it!

Mark 16:16 “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

First, let me say that forgiveness takes place in the mind of God. It is God who pardons sin. He has determined that forgiveness would take place when a sinner is immersed, for the Lord has said, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.” (Mark 16:16a)
I believe that immersion into Christ is essential to salvation. I am grieved that many have abandoned the truth of the subject, or even slacked off preaching about it in order to get numbers or promote unity with the unimmersed denominational people.
However, I believe that a repentant believer who is immersed to simply be obedient to the commands of the Lord Jesus Christ has the promise of salvation.
I believe that if a man obeys the Lord in immersion before he hears or understands Acts 2:38, is saved.
The “remission of sins” is what God does, not what man does.
Jesus Himself was baptized with the purpose of obeying God. He did it to “fulfill” all righteousness. God commanded it. Jesus obeyed it. When one is immersed to be obedient and to fulfill all that God requires, he follows in the footsteps of his Lord. In my judgment, one baptized to please and obey the Lord has a higher motive than the one baptized just to have his sins forgiven.
When one is baptized into Christ, he receives all the benefits of being in Christ even though he does not understand all the benefits at that time. When an alien becomes a citizen, he may not realize all the privileges and guarantees that he has as a citizen. They are his to enjoy upon learning them. Nor is it necessary for him to be naturalized again because he did not know those privileges before he became a citizen.
When one is immersed into the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, he receives all that is included in being under their authority.
The one immersed into the Name is found in Christ, in His Body, and receives the full benefits of His shed blood. He receives not only the remission of his sins and the Gift of the Holy Spirit, but redemption, sanctification, atonement, ect.
If the remission of sins needs to be mentioned and understood in order for the baptism to be valid, it follows that every other benefit bestowed at that time must be mentioned. If not, why not? To lay emphasis on the one expression and to make a test of fellowship over the knowledge contained in Acts 2:38 to the exclusion of all the other promises received at immersion borders on sectarianism. The general statement seems to me to be “baptizing them in the Name (or authority) of the Lord Jesus Christ.” When baptism occurs by His authority, all the benefits of being in Christ follow.
Look at Acts 2:38 “Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
This verse is often misunderstood.
In this verse we see 2 commands and 2 promises.
The 2 commands are to those who believe: 1) Repent and 2) be Baptized.
The 2 promises are 1) the remission of sins and 2) the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The remission of sins cannot be both the command and the promise. The command is NOT: “Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.”
The command is to repent and be baptized, in order that you may receive the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Remission of sins cannot be both the cause and the effect. It cannot be both obedience and the result of obedience. The commands are what the believer is to do; the promises are what God will do for the obedient believer.
Romans 6 was written to people who had to be informed again of the significance of their baptism because the brethren who believed the false teachers were confused about when pardon occurred. Paul corrected them.
Matthew 25:34-40

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? Or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? Or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”
Those believers who fed, clothed, visited, and shared with the sick, the needy, and those imprisoned, received blessings and were bidden to enter into the Kingdom, though they did not know that they had done it unto Christ.
Faith and obedience from love and honor for God is the very purest and highest of motives. Thomas, who had to see the resurrected Christ before he would believe and act, is not worthy to be compared to Nathaniel who believed on much less testimony.
The phrase “for the remission of sins” is NOT a part of the command in Acts 2:38. It is a part of the promise. Otherwise, it would require a man to remit his own sins. Jesus did NOT say, “He that believeth and is baptized for the remission of his sins shall be saved.”
Acts 2:38 happens to mention 2 promises or purposes, but the Scriptures mention up to 20 more reasons. To hold that one must know each of these before baptism is performed makes the baptism of the Philippian jailer, who was baptized the same hour of the night, ludicrous.
The command of the Lord was “he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.” Mark 16:16a. This is what God promised. Salvation is the result of obedience; can one be saved without the remission of sins?
Of course not. The teaching of Jesus and Peter are in perfect harmony.
Hebrews 9:22

“And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.”
Not all immersed believers are Christians. Some, such as the Jehovah Witnesses, do not accept Jesus as the Son of God. Mormons worship another Jesus other then revealed in Scripture. Adventists and many other denominations baptize into and by the authority of their denomination. In fact, in many Churches only their ordained clergy have the authority to baptize into their Church.
What is necessary, is that the immersed be immersed as a repentant believer who desires to obey the authority of Jesus Christ and therefore submits to the Lord’s command. Does the opinion of the denominational preacher who baptizes a repentant believer affect the validity of a repentant believer’s immersion?
We have no authority for trying to amend the ignorance of a denominational preacher by reimmersing those baptized by him.
The motive of immersion must be obedience to the Lord’s command, not the demands of some denomination. One, who is content with being immersed into a denominational church rather than in obedience to Christ, needs to re-evaluate his baptism before God. In whose name or by whose authority were you baptized?
That is the question.

 

[JCFantasy23]

MOD HAT ON


Thread has been moved from Proposed Formal Debate
​

 

[MrPolo]

One, who is content with being immersed into a denominational church rather than in obedience to Christ, needs to re-evaluate his baptism before God. In whose name or by whose authority were you baptized?

I'm unclear. Are you saying that some people are baptized because a preacher told them to and not because Scripture teaches we should be baptized for the remission of sins?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I would only stop to point out two problematic statements.

Baptism is how and when we come into contact with the blood of Christ.

Hmmm.... no, that's next.

Baptism is the point in time when we become saved.

The "saved at a point in time" run contrary to the teachings of running the race.

I enjoy your enthusiasm. (Why the tiny font?)

Forgive me...

 

[Schroeder]

Baptism is God’s terms of surrender.
Baptism is our signal to God we have accepted Christ’s gospel.
Baptism is “calling on the name of the Lord.”
Baptism is being unified with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection.
Baptism is “clothing” ourselves with Christ.
Baptism is “accepting” Christ (on His terms, not ours)
Baptism is when our sins are forgiven.
Baptism is when we receive the Holy Spirit.
Baptism is how and when we come into contact with the blood of Christ.
Baptism is when we are reborn.
Baptism is an act of faith.
Baptism is how we enter the kingdom of God.
Baptism is when we are added to the body of Christ (the church).
Baptism is when we exchange our life for His.
Baptism is when we die to ourselves and come alive in Christ.
Baptism is the washing of regeneration, and renewal of the Holy Spirit.
Baptism is the starting gun of a race of a new life.
Baptism is proclaiming in Christ the resurrection of the dead.
Baptism is when the old dies and the new arises. In this manner we become saved.
Baptism is the point in time when we become saved.
Baptism is when we stop living for ourselves and start living for Jesus.
Baptism is how and when we scripturally make a conscious decision to dedicate our lives to Christ.
Baptism is how we scripturally enter into a relationship with Christ.
Baptism is the gavel striking the bench proclaiming forgiveness of sins, the end of the old and the birth of the new.

like all this. very true.

It is a rule of interpretation that things equal to one another can be substituted for the other in a passage and still grant the reader a perfect knowledge of what was meant.
Throughout the Book of Acts we see that Baptism follows repentance.
Acts 2:38 “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

Peter’s statement in Acts 2:38 came directly from the throne of God. When Peter said that baptism, coupled with faith and repentance, would obtain the remission of sins, one cannot – dare not – doubt it!

Mark 16:16 “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

problem begins. first off Christ dealt with our sins already its not what we do about our sins that saves us. its saying christ dealt with them. Repenting is saying we are sinners. Its admitting we are in the wrong. when God hears this and us submitting to Christ's work on the cross for our sins He then baptizes us. And our sins are forgiven Yes but we still sin, do we not. Christ being in us lets us live in the river of blood, his blood taken for our sins. what Christ did was take away the curse of sin being death. He washed us clean to start again our rebirth. that is what we get when we believe a restart. But the most important and main thing is that the curse of sin is gone.

Mark 16:16 doesnt speak of water baptism either. read john 3:16-18. says same thing but doesnt use the word baptism. WHY because he was not yet glorified. SO now read john 7:38-39. also why he said it the way he did. it wasnt the being baptized(in water as you think) that he repeats(becasue its not about water baptism) its the BELIEF part. because one can get dunked in water, in sin and unbelief all day and not be baptized.(saved given the spirit) but one could never not be spirit baptized if one believes in his heart he is a sinner and believes in Christ work to save him. Because BEIEF saves not water baptism. baptism comes when one believes. again read john 7:38-39. read acts 10,11:16-18, acts 15:8, eph 1:13-14.

First, let me say that forgiveness takes place in the mind of God. It is God who pardons sin. He has determined that forgiveness would take place when a sinner is immersed, for the Lord has said, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.” (Mark 16:16a)

doesnt say this as i have shown above. what about acts 10:43 "All the prophets testify about him that everyone who BELIEVES in him RECIEVES FORGIVENESS OF SINs through his name." acts 15:8-11. roms 10:8-13. The whole of scripture sasys otherwise it seems to me.

I believe that immersion into Christ is essential to salvation. I am grieved that many have abandoned the truth of the subject, or even slacked off preaching about it in order to get numbers or promote unity with the unimmersed denominational people.
However, I believe that a repentant believer who is immersed to simply be obedient to the commands of the Lord Jesus Christ has the promise of salvation.

JESUS commands "Water" baptism where. mark 16. the word WATER isnt there and i show why above.

The one immersed into the Name is found in Christ, in His Body, and receives the full benefits of His shed blood. He receives not only the remission of his sins and the Gift of the Holy Spirit, but redemption, sanctification, atonement, ect.

acts 10-11, acts 15:8-11 show otherwise. They BELIEVED and recieved the SPirit God saw their hearts and cleansed them. All this you claim to those who are only IMMERSERED in water ios clearly falsified in th is account. they were water baptized AFTER all this was given them. theres plenty of other passages to show this as well

This verse is often misunderstood.

got this right

In this verse we see 2 commands and 2 promises.
The 2 commands are to those who believe: 1) Repent and 2) be Baptized.
The 2 promises are 1) the remission of sins and 2) the gift of the Holy Spirit.

one cannot COMMAND another how to be saved especially in free will and GRACE. God doesnt COMMAND use to be saved. thats not free will or grace. grace is a gift to another without the reguirement of DOING something to obtain it. Gifts are not given AFTER we are told to do a specific ACT to obtain it. YOu cannot say this is FREE BUT you have to do this to get it. Its not I died for your sins BUT you still have to do something for your sins to be forgiven. Peter gives no COMMAND and its not written in COMMAND form. Its more like they ASKED him what they needed to do. Peter told them REPENT and be baptized. He doesnt say repent and be baptized in water by so and so. When one repents they are baptized. when they are baptized they recieve the SPirit. john 7:38-39 tells this acts 10 shows this. Peter in acts 11 even bring this up in saying they were SPirit baptized in the beggining JUST as they were(the gentiles).

Not all immersed believers are Christians.

The motive of immersion must be obedience to the Lord’s command, not the demands of some denomination. One, who is content with being immersed into a denominational church rather than in obedience to Christ, needs to re-evaluate his baptism before God. In whose name or by whose authority were you baptized?
That is the question.

I believe that is what was spoken of in mark 16:16. Because being immersed in water doesnt save or give you anything. Belief does. christ said it over and over. BELIEVE in me and you will have eternal life. God said in acts 15:8 he say their HEARTS(not their faithful immersion in water) and purified their hearts by Faith. he accepted them whent hey believed and gave them the Holy Spirit which cleansed them. just as john 7:38-39 says so. gal 3:2,14,22. the guestion is do you truelly axcept Christ into your heart. thats what God is looking for not something you do to gain his respect. Thats not Grace. besides how does one do an act of obediance To God before he is even saved and in sin. How or why would God command something for us to do while we are without the Spirit in us and in sin. to understand this read rom 8:7-8. again the WHOLE OF SCRIPTURE must be used. Not just two verses to interpate the rest.

 

[Apollos1]

Select and concise replies to the errors of Schroeder as stated above…

Christ dealt with our sins already its not what we do about our sins that saves us. its saying christ dealt with them.
The difference between who is saved and who is NOT saved results by DOING what God tells us to do to receive salvation.
Mark 16:16 says nothing in itself about Christ “dealing” with our sins – how silly!

Repenting is saying we are sinners. Its admitting we are in the wrong.
This are certainly a NEW definitions of repentance – that are not supported by scripture. I would say this is scripture twisting, but I can’t think of even one to twist to derive such a spurious meaning.

“…submitting to Christ's work on the cross for our sins…”
Is there a passage anyway that supports this terminology?

He then baptizes us.
Big-time WRONG! In the parallel passage of Matthew 28:18f, Christ told His disciples that THEY were to go, teach, and BAPTIZE all nations. To say that it is Christ baptizing us is specious.

Mark 16:16 doesnt speak of water baptism either.
WATER baptism is exactly what Christ was talking about. Water baptism is baptism “in the name of Jesus Christ". The accounts of disciples baptizing pentitent sinners throughout Acts show that it was WATER baptism that was practiced – starting with Acts 2:38.

read john 3:16-18. says same thing but doesnt use the word baptism.
LOL – no, it does NOT say the same thing IF one reads this passage with objectivity. To “believe ON Him” means to believe EVERYTHING He said as well. This is not just mental ascent, but obedience as God directs. It also includes the obedience of Mark 16:16.

SO now read john 7:38-39.
You read too much into this passage not knowing to whom the Spirit would be given, how It would be given, or in what measure. There are other passages to learn what it means to “believe”, as well as about reception of the Spirit. I don’t care to base my theology on just ONE verse when others exist, or on personal assumption.

because one can get dunked in water, in sin and unbelief all day and not be baptized.
It appears one can “believe” and not receive the Spirit or “get” saved – John 12:42. Now you will say Christ was yet to be glorified, but what about all those verses that just say “believe” and you will be saved?? Was no one saved until after glorification?

The Samaritans did not receive the Spirit when they bona-fide believed - Acts 8:12-16, but were WATER baptized (8:12) by the Spirit led Philip!

Because being immersed in water doesnt save or give you anything.
It does if God says so…. And He does – Mark 16:16 !!

 

[Tangible]

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[Schroeder]

Select and concise replies to the errors of Schroeder as stated above…

Christ dealt with our sins already its not what we do about our sins that saves us. its saying christ dealt with them.
The difference between who is saved and who is NOT saved results by DOING what God tells us to do to receive salvation.
Mark 16:16 says nothing in itself about Christ “dealing” with our sins – how silly!

yea like believe in me and you will receive forgiveness of sins and have eternal life. john 3:16 among the many. God tells us we cannot DO anything to recieve salvation. thats why he sent his son i do believe. becasue we were not able to do it.

Repenting is saying we are sinners. Its admitting we are in the wrong.
This are certainly a NEW definitions of repentance – that are not supported by scripture. I would say this is scripture twisting, but I can’t think of even one to twist to derive such a spurious meaning.

how consice is this if you dont even provide another deffinition. And it weasnt exsactly a defining deffinition of the word repent. It was a bit generalized. So when you repented you DID NOT admit you were wrong. The point of repentance was becasue of our sins and not following God.

“…submitting to Christ's work on the cross for our sins…”
Is there a passage anyway that supports this terminology?

are you just making stuff up to make me look incorrect. or you going to actually ever be a bit more specific.

He then baptizes us.
Big-time WRONG! In the parallel passage of Matthew 28:18f, Christ told His disciples that THEY were to go, teach, and BAPTIZE all nations. To say that it is Christ baptizing us is specious.

YES the apostles. the Church wasnt even around yet. The Church is made up of those who have the SPirit of Christ in them. Which didnt happen until after his assension. read john 7:38-39. Scripture says the SPirit gives the SPirit. john 3:6. Christ is Spirit and where the SPirit is their is life.

Mark 16:16 doesnt speak of water baptism either.
WATER baptism is exactly what Christ was talking about. Water baptism is baptism “in the name of Jesus Christ". The accounts of disciples baptizing pentitent sinners throughout Acts show that it was WATER baptism that was practiced – starting with Acts 2:38.

Why do you keep adding the word water. its NOT their. Notice Jesus repeats the need to BELIEVE to be saved not baptism. why is that. becasue baptism will not happen untill you believe in him. read acts 10:43. 11:16- john 7:38-39. notice how its helpful to use scripture to interpret scripture. The water baptism was for identification. read 1 cor 1.

read john 3:16-18. says same thing but doesnt use the word baptism.
LOL – no, it does NOT say the same thing IF one reads this passage with objectivity. To “believe ON Him” means to believe EVERYTHING He said as well. This is not just mental ascent, but obedience as God directs. It also includes the obedience of Mark 16:16.

again with your obediance. how are you obediant without being saved first. You cannot obey commands to someone you do not place your faith in FIRST. If you dont believe with all your heart you wont be OBEDIANT. scripture says If you BELIEVE you will recieve. eph 1:13-14. its rather clear. YET you claim i dont read with objectivity. I BELIEVE it when christ says believe on me for eternal life. I believe what ALL the passages say without haveing to add or take away. they all say completely what is need to be saved. SO when john 7:38-39 says that when we BELIEVE we will receive the SPirit i believe it without ADDING to it. when acts 15:8 says God accepted them and gave them the SPirit i Believe it. simply put you do not. you think we must add to these verses WATER baptism something we physically do to receive salvation which is not grace. PERIOD.

SO now read john 7:38-39.
You read too much into this passage not knowing to whom the Spirit would be given, how It would be given, or in what measure. There are other passages to learn what it means to “believe”, as well as about reception of the Spirit. I don’t care to base my theology on just ONE verse when others exist, or on personal assumption.

yea right thats a laugh. your whole theology is based on what you think the word baptism actually means. being dunked under water by someone. even though scripture shows this to be not even close to the only meaning. and your acts 2:38 matt. 28 maRK 16. takes which were before the Church even started. Why would Christ give commands to the Church before its even around. To the Chursh the apostles dont even understand yet. I read it simple as it is stated. it doesnt seem to hard to understand seeing how there are verses to back it up.

because one can get dunked in water, in sin and unbelief all day and not be baptized.
It appears one can “believe” and not receive the Spirit or “get” saved – John 12:42. Now you will say Christ was yet to be glorified, but what about all those verses that just say “believe” and you will be saved?? Was no one saved until after glorification?

No they were not. there sins were held over untill his glorification. They were saved but God doesnt work on our time. IF they believed on christ before his death and assescion they were still saved just not like the Church is now. they were saved in the old covenant.

The Samaritans did not receive the Spirit when they bona-fide believed - Acts 8:12-16, but were WATER baptized (8:12) by the Spirit led Philip!

Because being immersed in water doesnt save or give you anything.
It does if God says so…. And He does – Mark 16:16 !!

they were water baptized. You would even say that. they believed in christ yes but remember this is the beggining of the preaching and God was showing who had the blessings of God or who was the true speakers of God. revealing the apostles so to speak. besides why you use such simple understated passages to trry to prove me wrong. therer isnt much info for this passage so its easy to misuse. SO your admiting one doesnt receive the SPirit when they are water baptized. thats true. Jesus says in mark says whoeve BELIEVES and is baptized will be saved. And whoeve does not BELIEVE will be condemed. you think he would have said who ever does not get water baptized will be condemed. but nope he says those who dont believe. WHY is that. becasue the baptis of the Spirit comes ONLY after you BELIEVE. acts 10 eph 1:13-14. john 7:38-39. Jesus said over and over whoever BELIEVES in me will have eternal life. wonder why becasue he will recive the SPirit which is Christ into thier life. and as it is stated where the SPirit is their is life. rom 8. JTB said he baptized with water but the one after me will baptize with the spirit. go ahead you take JTB baptism I will take Christ baptism. I will believe titus 3:5 john 3:16 eph 1:13-14. acts 15:8