Formal Debate -- Amillenialism vs Premillenialism

[MarkRohfrietsch]

1. Title: Formal Debate -- Amillenialism vs Premillenialism
2. Topic: A discussion of the Thousand Years found in Revelation 20 and the different understanding and interpretation of it.
3. Participants: @Taom Ben Robert who will be advocating the Amillenialist position and @ewq1938 who will be supporting the Millenialist position; Taom Ben Robert will open the debate with ewq1938 replying.
4. Number of Rounds: There will be three alternating rounds (three posts each).
5. Maximum time between posts will be one week.
6. Maximum length of each post will be 1500 words.
7. Outside references will be allowed. Please note that all quotes will fall under the 20% rule.
8. The regular rules of Christian Forums apply to everything not covered by these stipulations.
9. Start Date: Any time.

Formal Debate Peanut Gallery Thread is located here:
Formal Debate Peanut Gallery Thread -- Amillenialism vs Premillenialism

 

[Taom Ben Robert]

First off , I'd like to say that this is more like a friendly discussion between brothers than a debate for points .

I present to you the Amillennialist position, that the thousand years is allegorical, it's talking about a church age between the cross and the second coming at the end of time , there is no literal thousand year reign on earth of Christ or " millennium ", for one the Scriptures teach only one second coming , not a secret coming and a public coming ( Acts 17:31 , 24:15 )
Two everyone will see him ( Acts 1:11 , Mark 14:62 ) Third , premillennialism states that there's a second chance after the second coming , Scripture teaches no second chance after then ( Matt25:70 , Heb 9:27) , Fourth, the premillennialist position places the center of the gospel as the Jews , instead of Christ the Jewish Messiah ( Rom 1:16 ) , Fifth, the Nicene , Athanaisian , and Apostles Creeds as well as the majority of the church fathers teach the Amillinialists position , Also Christs kingdom is now in believing hearts and will be fully recognized at the resurrection of all, its not some earthy kingdom ( 1 John 3:2 , Rev 1:5-6) , and there will be no extra temple , for Jesus blood is sufficient, no further sacrifices necessary, the church is called the temple ( Ephesians 2:19-22 ) , and lastly believers and unbelievers alike will rise at the end of time at the same resurrection.

 

[ewq1938]

First off , I'd like to say that this is more like a friendly discussion between brothers than a debate for points .

I present to you the Amillennialist position, that the thousand years is allegorical, it's talking about a church age between the cross and the second coming at the end of time , there is no literal thousand year reign on earth of Christ or " millennium ",

It is noted that no scriptural evidence is offered to prove this claim.

Can you prove with scripture when the thousand years began?

Can you prove with scripture when scripture says it will end?

Can you prove with scripture the thousand years is the church age?

Does not Revelation say it is a time where formerly dead saints reign with Christ with a rod of iron over the nations? I don't see any physically resurrected saints any where. I don't see Christ physically returned any where. It appears you are claiming we are in a time period yet the world lacks all the written components of that special time period.

Jesus is NOT reigning over His enemies now - according to Scripture

To reign means to rule over people and have complete control. Look around at the world. ISIS is murdering Christians and harming the growth of the gospel. The world is full is false gods and religions and evil practices.

It is clear someone else reigns this wicked, morally corrupt world currently:

Joh 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Prince here doesn't mean second in command or something like we think in modern English, it means the ruler, the first in rank or power:

G758
a?´????
archo¯n
ar'-khone
Present participle of G757; a first (in rank or power): - chief (ruler), magistrate, prince, ruler.


G758
a?´????
archo¯n
Thayer Definition:
1) a ruler, commander, chief, leader
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: present participle of G757
Citing in TDNT: 1:488, 81

According to Christ, the ruler of this world was to come after Christ left. We know from Rev 12 that after He ascended there was a war in heaven and satan was cast to the Earth just as Christ said would happen. According to Jesus Christ himself, the one reigning/ruling the world after His ascension would be satan!

So when would Christ reign his enemies on the Earth?

Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?


Mar 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.


Luk 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luk 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.


Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.


Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Psa 110:2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
Psa 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
Psa 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Psa 110:5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
Psa 110:6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
Psa 110:7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

So when does Christ leave the right hand of God in heaven and come to the Earth to defeat his enemies and reign? The second coming of course. We also see this depicted in Rev 19.


Amill asks, "Isn't Christ's kingdom reigning on the Earth now?"

No.

Rev_11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

His reign here begins when the 7th trump sounds.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

This is the first time when Christ reigns literally over all kings and their kingdoms.

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

His times would be specifically "the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ" at the 7th trump! That is when he is actively and defacto King of Kings reigning over all Earthly kingdoms and reigning over his enemies with a rod of iron.

Here is what we know:

1. Christ said satan is the ruler of the world.
2. Christ's reign will begin when he leaves the right hand of God in heaven and comes to the Earth.
2a. That is the second coming at the 7th trump.


John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Christ knew his kingdom and reign here starts when he returned at the 7th trump.

Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.


Joh_10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Does this mean Christ died and resurrected himself right at this moment or was that a future thing he has authority to do?

Rev_2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

So in comparison he received the knowledge that in the future he and his saints would rule over the nations with a rod of iron.
That particular reign did not start when John had this vision, which was somewhere around Ad 93 or so. Even AD 70, which I disagree with, is still many decades after the cross. If Christ is reigning now with a rod of iron why the decades of delay after the cross? That makes no logical sense.

But understand both of the things he said he received from the Father were related to the future, everything makes logical and scriptural sense and matches perfectly with each other. This is sound exegesis.

for one the Scriptures teach only one second coming , not a secret coming and a public coming ( Acts 17:31 , 24:15 ) Two everyone will see him ( Acts 1:11 , Mark 14:62 )

That's an argument against the Pre-trib rapture, yet that is not what we are debating here. Christ indeed returns one time but we are debating when that is in relation to the thousand years. Clearly Christ returns once and all see him.

Third , premillennialism states that there's a second chance after the second coming , Scripture teaches no second chance after then ( Matt25:70 , Heb 9:27) ,

Neither of those verses state there are no second chances after the second coming. What Rev 19-20 show is there is a thousand years after the second coming. If God gives anyone a second chance during that time it is God's choice. Clearly God has given some type of a chance to the nations because he allows them to live and be reigned over by Christ and the saints. Why give them that time to be reigned over rather than just kill them at the second coming?

Fourth,the premillennialist position places the center of the gospel as the Jews , instead of Christ the Jewish Messiah ( Rom 1:16 ) ,

This isn't true. Scripture is clear there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ, all are equal. Anyone who espouses anything different is incorrect.

Fifth, the Nicene , Athanaisian , and Apostles Creeds as well as the majority of the church fathers teach the Amillinialists position ,

Firstly, that is untrue. Secondly, even if it were true, it is irrelevant as only scripture matters.

Also Christs kingdom is now in believing hearts and will be fully recognized at the resurrection of all, its not some earthy kingdom ( 1 John 3:2 , Rev 1:5-6) ,

The reign of a rod of iron is very much an Earthly kingdom because the entire purpose of it is to be reigning over the Earthly nations! The nations are not being reigned by Christ now! Look at them, they are murdering Christians, promoting their false religions...if Christ is reigning he isn't actually doing anything to control the nations. It is clear that the nations are wild and reckless and are not under a Godly reign currently because the rod of iron is used to control negative behavior. You are confusing the rod of iron reign (which is temporary, lasting only a thousand years) with his eternal reign.

Rev_12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

The Millennium is the first time Christ has the opportunity to rule the nations with a rod of iron. The rod has no need in heaven thus the rod of iron can only apply to an Earthly reign over his enemies.

Rev_19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Here he returns, smites and "shall rule" the nations. That happens because shortly after his return the Millennium begins.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

This is clearly a new development else it wouldn't be mentioned.



It is at the 7th trump when he takes reign over the kingdoms of the world, stripping them of the reigns they previously enjoyed. That is the use of the rod of iron in action, dissolving their evil administrations.

Rev_2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


Barnes:

As the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers - The ironic here is that of the vessel of a potter - a fragile vessel of clay - struck with a rod of iron and broken into fragments. That is, as applied to the nations, there would be no power to oppose His rule; the enemies of his government would be destroyed. Instead of remaining firm and compacted together, they would be broken like the clay vessel of a potter when struck with a rod of iron.

Rev_2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Rev_12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

"Rule"
G4165
p??µa?´??
poimaino¯
poy-mah'ee-no
From G4166; to tend as a shepherd (or figuratively superviser): - feed (cattle), rule.


Some people don't understand what a supervising shepherd does when he TENDS a flock under his control. To tend is to take care of! A supervisor watches over his employees, not kill them! A shepherd controls and protects his flock and that is the type of rule that shall be not the judgment and destruction of the wicked during the Millennium. They are protected from the deceptions of satan for the entire thousand years. It is clear error to mix the concept of shepherding with judging and punishing and killing. In addition, they will have no way to group and form together to rebel during this time which is expressed by the vessels being broken up. The pieces are individuals and the vessels represented they previous way they had been grouped together in opposition to Christ.




There is another use of this vessel being destroyed and it is not about killing people but breaking up an organization of people who rebel against God:

Isa 30:12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
Isa 30:13 Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.
Isa 30:14 And he shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; he shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit.

The metaphor of a vessel being broken is never about individuals being killed. God didn't kill every Jew. But their rebellion and sin against him caused the demise of their chosen status, even the covenant between them and God. Fast forward to the Millennium and again those who rebel against Christ shall have their wicked organizations broken up, leaving them powerless and unable to organize against Christ during this period of TIME of the reign/rule with a rod of iron. They live to be reigned over. When God allows satan to deceive them, then a brief and failed rebellion occurs and they are killed and judged and are no more forever.

Barnes:

As the breaking of the potter’s vessel - That is, as an earthen, fragile vessel, which is easily dashed to pieces. The image here is all drawn from the bursting forth, or the complete ruin of the swelling wall; but the sense is, that the Jewish republic would be entirely broken, scattered, demolished.

Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Barnes:

Psalms 2:9

Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron - That is, evidently, thine enemies, for it cannot be supposed to be meant that he would sway such a scepter over his own people. The idea is that he would crush and subdue all his foes. He would have absolute power, and the grant which had been made to him would be accompanied with authority sufficient to hold it. That dominion which was to be conceded to him would be not only one of protection to his friends, but also of punishment on his enemies; and the statement here is made prominent because the former part of the psalm had respect to rebels, and the Messiah is here represented as being invested with power sufficient to punish and restrain them. The Vulgate renders this “thou shalt rule;” the Septuagint, “thou shalt feed - p??µa?e??? poimaneis; that is, thou shalt feed them as a shepherd does his flock; thou shalt exercise over them the care and protection of a shepherd.

Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

This speaks of this. The rod of iron destroys their dominion and systems of control and rebellion for a period of TIME known as the Millennium. They are allowed to live for that period, then they will be destroyed just as Rev 20 portrays. And this is the corroboration for the Millennial period some have demanded at length.


Psa 2:9 (LXX) You shall break/tend them with a rod?ofiron; as?vessels of a potter?you shall break them.?

AMill thinks the term "break" means destroy. Many of the translations Psalms 2 translations read "to rule" (BBE, NIV, NIRV, ERV, Brenton (LXX), DRB, YLT, ABP) because they recognize that the LXX uses of it (shepherd) and the illogical conclusions related to the inheritance if it means "destory"

Psa 2:9 (LXX) You shall tend them with a rod?ofiron; as?vessels of a potter?you shall break them.?

The New Testament translation ALL USE the word "shepherd" (poimaino) in REV 2:27 which means to "tend, feed, or rule". It NEVER MEANS to destroy.

For example:


Matt 2:6 'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are not the least among the rulers of Judah; for out of you shall come a Ruler who will shepherd My people Israel.' "

Did Micah mean Jesus would destroy God's people, Israel? No!




John 21:16 He said to him again a second time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Tend My sheep."

Did Jesus tell Peter to kill His sheep??? NO!



Acts 20:28 "Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Did Paul tell the Ephesian elders to kill the congregation??? No!



1 Pet 5:1 The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed: 2 Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly;

Did Peter tell the elders to kill their congregations??? NO!



Rev 7:14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 "They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 "for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

Is Jesus going to kill the saints after He wipes away tears from their eyes? No!





Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

This corresponds to this:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.



Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.


This corresponds to this:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


So we have the first beast of Rev 13 being cast into the LOF which happens in Rev 19, the 7th trump. Daniel says "rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time." proving people do survive past the 7th trump for a period of TIME.




Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

This corresponds to this:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.



Dan 7:15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
Dan 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
Dan 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

This corresponds to this:

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


This corresponds to this:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

and this:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.



Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


This corresponds to this:

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

[/QUOTE]and there will be no extra temple ,[/QUOTE]

Irrelevant to topic.

for Jesus blood is sufficient, no further sacrifices necessary,

I already informed you that I don't believe the sacrifices ever return so why would you mention this here?
and lastly believers and unbelievers alike will rise at the end of time at the same resurrection.

There will never be an end of time because the eternity is an eternity of time, Rev 21-22.
Believers are said to rise first, 1Th_4:16, so it is false to claim believers and unbelievers rise at the same time.

 

[Taom Ben Robert]

First off , Happy New Year , my brother, I pray that you grow in and keep the faith , and have a good day .


1. One judgment day at the second coming in the future ( Matt 13:40-43, 25:31-32, 2 Pet 3:7 , 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 , Zeph 1 , Isaiah 24-27 )

2. One bodily resurrection of all , saved and unsaved at the second coming ( John 5:28-29 , Daniel 12:2 , Acts 24:15 , Rev 20:13 , John 6:39-40, 54, 1 Thess 4:16 , Phil 3:20-21 , 1 Cor 5:23 )

3. All will see him ( Acts 1:11 , Matt 24:27 , 30, Luke 17:22-24, 21:27, 35, Mark 13:24-26, 14:62 , Rev 1:7 )

4. Believers will receive eternal salvation , unbelievers will receive eternal damnation ( Matt 25::31-46 , 1 Pet 1:4-5,7, 5:4 , 1 John 3:2 , Heb 9:28 , 2 Cor 5:10 , 2 Thess 1:6-10 )

5. When Christ returns there will be a new heaven and earth ( 2 Pet 3:10-13 ) not a 1000 yr political kingdom .

6. THe Apostles Creed , Athanaisian Creed , and Nicene creed are Amillennialist

7. The majority of the church fathers are Amillinialists ( such as Caius , St Augustine, St Dionesius , Origen , Puesdu-Barnabas , Clement of Alexandria, and many , many others )

8. The majority of Reformers are Amillinialists ( such as Martin Luther , Martin Chemmiz , Flacius , Phillip Melchananon , Uther Zwingli, John Knox , Jan Huss , Heinrich Bullinger and many others , )

9. Christ owns the Holy Land , the Jews are caretakers ( Deut 6:10-11, 1 Kings 21:1-16, Ps 24:1 )

10. The Church is the New Israel comprised of Believing Jews and Gentiles , there is no mass conversion of the Jews, but a remnant .( Rom 4:11-12 , 16, 9:24, Gal 3:26-29 , 6:15-16 )

11. The kingdom is now but not yet ( i.e. in believing hearts ) ( 1 John 3:2 , Rom 1:5-6)

12. Christ centered eschatology , not Jew centered ( Luke 24:25-27, 44, John 5:39, 46, 2 Cor 1:19-20 )

13. There cannot be one covenant for the Gentiles and one for the Jews , both need the Law and gospel so , Jews must be under the same covenant as Gentiles or you undermine the gospel God is no respecter of persons .

14. Contrary to popular belief Amillinialists are supporting of the moral law for believers , and are not anti Semitic

15 . The 1000 yrs are allegorical of the church age .

16. Tradition IS important when discussing theology .

 

[ewq1938]

First off , Happy New Year , my brother, I pray that you grow in and keep the faith , and have a good day .

Happy New year!

1. One judgment day at the second coming in the future ( Matt 13:40-43, 25:31-32, 2 Pet 3:7 , 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 , Zeph 1 , Isaiah 24-27 )

Christ does do some judging when he returns but it is not the great white throne judgment seen in the end of Rev 20 simply because we see Christ return in Rev 19 and there is a thousand years inbetween the second coming and the final day of judgment. Also note that there is a judgment in the early chapter of Rev 20 which would pertain to the day of the second coming where only dead saints are judged where in the final judgment we only see the wicked dead being judged.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Before the thousand years even begins, there are thrones and judgment is given to those sitting on the thrones. Then we are introduced to a group of dead Christian martyrs. Even the Amill scholar Barnes believes not only is there a judgment here but also states it is these dead martyrs that are being judged and there is only one judgment for them, eternal life!


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


John sees two groups of people/souls:

1. people sitting on thrones and judgment given to them
2. souls of the tribulation martyrs who instead of remaining dead are said to live with Christ

Claiming 1 and 2 are the same group doesn't make any sense. Those judging are not the second group mentioned. It can only be that second group of martyrs that were being judged and the judgment has to be a resurrection to life which we know is the reward for the dead in Christ.



We see the same event in Daniel:

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.


Here are multiple thrones and God the Father himself sitting there.


Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.


And here again judgment is mentioned and a large group standing before him. This must be the dead in Christ being judged to life because it cannot apply to the unsaved because the beast hasn't yet been slain:


Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.


This beast of course is also seen in Rev 19 being destroyed at the return of Christ. What we then have been given is a judgment of a group before the beast is destroyed so that group must be the saved being judged to eternal life as we also see in Rev 20.

Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

And just like it is for the thousand years, some "beasts" (the wicked/unsaved/and satan himself) have their lives prolonged. Indeed during the thousand years satan and many unsaved gentiles of the world's nations will live through the thousand years.

Another example of the righteous being judged separately from the wicked:


Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


Here we again have judgment of the righteous first! No wicked are being judged with the righteous. Exactly what Daniel 7 and Rev 20 also show.


Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Christ does not address time in this but According to Rev 20, there is a period of time inbetween the judgment of the dead in Christ vs. the rest of the dead so we know there is time inbetween these two judgments. Even in human courts there is no such concept of judging someone a reward while judging someone to death. That happens at different times. The two don't belong in one court judgment.


1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

As you can see, the righteous are judged FIRST. Judgment starts with "us" as Peter confirms.

2. One bodily resurrection of all , saved and unsaved at the second coming ( John 5:28-29 , Daniel 12:2 , Acts 24:15 , Rev 20:13 , John 6:39-40, 54, 1 Thess 4:16 , Phil 3:20-21 , 1 Cor 5:23 )

Nope. There are two different mass bodily resurrections according to scripture:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Amill denies the scripture that the dead in Christ rise first since they claim the saved and unsaved all rise at the same time. That scripture demands and establishes two resurrections. Rising first means they rise before any other dead rise.



Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


Order of events:

1. second coming
2. dead in Christ rise. No wicked dead rise yet.
3. the rapture of the living in Christ. No wicked dead rise yet.
4. Christ kills the beasts army. No wicked dead rise yet.

So by this time there is only one completed mass resurrection of those that were dead.

5. In Premill there is a thousand years because it literally says the rest of the dead lived not or resurrected not until after the thousand years, which must be the wicked because no saved dead are still dead according to number 2.
5a. In Amil instead of a thousand years until the wicked dead rise they say it's a second or seconds despite Rev 20 saying it's a thousand years before they rise. Or some claim it's all at the same time ignoring multiple scripture that say the opposite.

Everything points to two resurrections at different times.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Why does it say many instead of all?

That's because not all resurrect at the same time so many means a lot of people, the saved, will awake and later the rest shall. So not "all" awake at the same time.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The last day of this age is the day of the second coming when Christ resurrects those in him, those that "eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood" and no wicked do that. No wicked are raised on that day.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


If these people are bodily resurrected then that proves the dead martyrs are also bodily resurrected:


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This next verse helps prove that because John is using "live" and "lived" as a reference to bodily resurrections not living in a spiritual sense simply because these people have been spiritually alive since they became Christians. We all know the saved and unsaved dead are actually still alive as far as a living soul etc is concerned. They are dead bodily because they were born and died at some point.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Contextually Rev 20's two resurrections are bodily resurrections of two different groups of people at two different times.

3. All will see him ( Acts 1:11 , Matt 24:27 , 30, Luke 17:22-24, 21:27, 35, Mark 13:24-26, 14:62 , Rev 1:7 )

Yes but this is irrelevant to the topic we are discussing.

4. Believers will receive eternal salvation , unbelievers will receive eternal damnation ( Matt 25::31-46 , 1 Pet 1:4-5,7, 5:4 , 1 John 3:2 , Heb 9:28 , 2 Cor 5:10 , 2 Thess 1:6-10 )

Yes but not at the same time, see above.

5. When Christ returns there will be a new heaven and earth ( 2 Pet 3:10-13 ) not a 1000 yr political kingdom , .

That's incorrect according to Rev 20 as a reign lasting a thousand years does begin after the second coming. And you are also incorrect as to when the NHNE begins as John says he saw them in Rev 21:1, long after the second coming (and the thousand years and the releasing of Satan and the gathering of an army, and the defeat of that army by the Father in heaven as opposed to when Christ defeats a different army in a different location and timeframe in Rev 19. and the final judgment of only those who are dead because all the saved people ether were resurrected earlier or some had never died in the first place)

6. THe Apostles Creed , Athanaisian Creed , and Nicene creed are Amillennialist

Claims are not sufficient in a debate. It is appropriate to provide evidence of any claims and as I already said, it wouldn't mean anything IF they were Amill. Anyways. Creeds are not scripture.

7. The majority of the church fathers are Amillinialists ( such as Caius , St Augustine, St Dionesius , Origen , Puesdu-Barnabas , Clement of Alexandria, and many , many others )

Also irrelevant If true. You also failed to back up your claims about these people and others as you did above.

8. The majority of Reformers are Amillinialists ( such as Martin Luther , Martin Chemmiz , Flacius , Phillip Melchananon , Uther Zwingli, John Knox , Jan Huss , Heinrich Bullinger and many others , )

See above.

9. Christ owns the Holy Land , the Jews are caretakers ( Deut 6:10-11, 1 Kings 21:1-16, Ps 24:1 )

So?

10. The Church is the New Israel comprised of Believing Jews and Gentiles , there is no mass conversion of the Jews, but a remnant .( Rom 4:11-12 , 16, 9:24, Gal 3:26-29 , 6:15-16 )

So?

11. The kingdom is now but not yet ( i.e. in believing hearts ) ( 1 John 3:2 , Rom 1:5-6)

That's quite a contradiction. The truth is the reign of the rod of iron over the nations by Christ and his resurrected saints is not now because it has a certain starting point after the second coming and lasts a thousand years and then that particular type of reign is over. It also doesn't matter to Premil if the thousand years is exactly 1000, or more or less but if it is exactly 1000 or less, then it proves Amil wrong.

12. Christ centered eschatology , not Jew centered ( Luke 24:25-27, 44, John 5:39, 46, 2 Cor 1:19-20 )

So?

13. There cannot be one covenant for the Gentiles and one for the Jews , both need the Law and gospel so , Jews must be under the same covenant as Gentiles or you undermine the gospel God is no respecter of persons .

You appear to be debating someone other than myself. You are preaching to the choir half of the time brother.

14. Contrary to popular belief Amillinialists are supporting of the moral law for believers , and are not anti Semitic

???

15 . The 1000 yrs are allegorical of the church age .

Why no evidence to support this claim? I don't think you were prepared to actually have a formal debate on this subject...
The 1000 years is obviously not the church age because the church age doesn't match what little we do know about the 1000 years.

1. Christ is not reigning over the nations with his resurrected saints with a rod of iron. The nations run amuck with no control being exercised over them which is why they murder Christians and repel the gospel and promote their own satanic religions. That won't be allowed during a real reign!

2. Satan is not bound and imprisoned and unable to deceive the nations. Clearly the nations are still currently being deceived!

3. There is no difference in Amil's thousand year reign and the time before or after it! Shouldn't there be an effect in the world with Christ and his saints reigning with a rod of iron and Satan being unable to deceive?? Amil's thousand year reign make a mockery of the true thousand year reign. Amil's thousand year reign is lawless and without any direct control/reign over the God hating nations. Premil's thousand year reign understands that Christ and his resurrected saints will use the symbolic of iron to stop the nations from doing what they have chosen and currently still choose to do. When the reign ends, Satan will go and deceive them again just as he is currently doing and they will return to their old ways but will be destroyed. We do not live in the thousand years of Rev 20 and that is obvious just by looking at the actual world we live in.

16. Tradition IS important when discussing theology .

Tradition is merely history. It can be a history of false doctrines being promoted so it is not viable as evidence of truth. Only scripture can provide evidence of something being true. Christ never said to look at man's traditions to find the truth! He said to find truth in scripture, "Have ye not read?"

 

[ewq1938]

Since the other person has failed to respond within the proper amount of time I will make my third and last post in the debate.

Unfortunately this debate was very one sided and the main tenants of Premil have not been properly challenged. While that alone does not prove Premil correct, it is in my experience very typical of the Amil position.

I am hoping someone that supports Amil and is prepared to debate this topic would post in the peanut gallery thread for this debate and perhaps a new debate can begin. I will end this with a list of problems with Amil:

Major holes found in the Amill theory.

(these various issues have been presented in threads in various forums by people who believe in Amill. These may or may not be held by every individual holding that doctrine)

If any of these are true, then you can be assured that Amill is faulty and should be extremely distrusted as a theological doctrine.

Each person who believes in Amill is a good person with good intent regarding scriptural interpretation but Premill very much disagrees with their doctrine, their way of interpretation, and their exegesis of various scriptures. In this list you will see the biggest problems the doctrine contains.


1. Time no longer theory

The "time will stop existing" theory which is based on misunderstanding the KJV wording and is used to suggest the pit must be opened to release satan before time ends. Scripture never claims that time ends in fact the eternity is literally never ending time and a new fruit on the tree of life every month (30 days of time).

Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

World here is AION which is an age or period of time, usually it speaks of an everlasting period of time. Here the verse not only uses AION but adds "without end" to make clear time never ends for overcomers.


2. Apollyon is released out of the pit?

Amill claims that Apollyon who is "the angel of the pit" was in the pit with the locusts and was also released with them though the scripture does not state this happened. It is assumed because Amill believes this was the same event in Rev 20 when satan is released from the pit though there are no similarities in the details or timeframes.

3. What does "loosed" mean?

Contradicting the above claim in number 2, some in Amill believe there is no such "releasing" of satan from the pit because at times the Greek word translated as "loosed" can imply destruction. Amill believes satan is not "released" but destroyed which contradicts the idea that satan is Apollyon and that he is literally "released" from imprisonment in Rev 9.

4. The first resurrection? Christ's resurrection?

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Here Amill changes the "first resurrection" from a reference to the dead in Christ being raised first when He returns to it referencing Christ's own resurrection found in the gospels. It is clearly not speaking of that resurrection for many contextual reasons.

5. First resurrection, a resurrection without a death?

Also, some in Amill alternatively claim those of the first resurrection never died in the first place despite it saying these were beheaded during the tribulation. Both claims regarding the first resurrection are false and each contradict the other.

6. Timeframe of the first resurrection.

Amill believes Christ comes after the Millennium yet Christ clearly returns before the Millennium because Rev 20 mentions the first resurrection occurring before the Millennium begins and that only happens at the second coming.

7. Return of Christ not found inbetween the end of the Millennium and judgment day.

In Rev 20 we are shown the beginning and the end of the Millennium and then the great white throne judgment yet the most anticipated event in human history is nowhere to be found. If Jesus does not return inbetween the end of the Millennium and judgment day, then when did his return actually take place?

8. Who judges on judgment day? Jesus or his Father?

Amill asserts that Jesus is the judge on judgment day and that occurs when he returns yet multiple scriptures, and from Jesus' own mouth, state that it is Jesus' father who judges on that day making the second coming not judgment day.

9. 1,000 year reign of the saints in Heaven or on the Earth?

Amill claims the resurrected saints that reign for 1000 years are in heaven during that reign, yet Amill also says the 1000 years doesn't apply to those saints in heaven because "heaven is eternal" and there is no time there.

10. Satan attacks New Jerusalem?

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Amill sometimes teaches that this attempted attack on Jerusalem is actually against New Jerusalem and satan is trying to access God's throne yet New Jerusalem does not descend from Heaven until after judgment day, Rev 21.

11. The first resurrection of Rev 20 is when a person is born again and is spiritually resurrected.

The problem with this idea is that Rev 20 specifically says those who are of the first resurrection had died from being beheaded in the great Tribulation (which most Amill's also deny) because they "had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark".

12. The beast of Rev 13 existed in John's time.

Amill teaches that The beast of Rev 13 existed in John's time, yet John was told that this beast did not exist in his time yet. That also eliminates the possibility that the beast was Rome. Also the fact that Rev 13's beast is destroyed at the second coming (Rev 19) also disproves Amill's interpretation of who the beast is and when it exists.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition. And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, they whose name hath not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast, how that he was, and is not, and shall come.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns that thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but they receive authority as kings, with the beast, for one hour. Yet John was told that this beast did not exist in his time, that it would come to be again in the future.


13. The dragon (satan) is bound in the pit once he is kicked out of heaven.

Amill teaches that he is cast into the pit after being kicked out of heaven yet Rev 12 does not show this at all.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

No being bound and imprisoned in the pit. No new reduction or restriction placed upon Satan in the slightest in fact he is seen to be more active and more destructive than ever. Not only does he make war against the saints Rev 13 shows that he overcomes and kills them! That is not a Satan who supposedly is bound and imprisoned.


14. The opening of the pit in Rev 9 is the same exact event and time when the pit is opened in Rev 20.

The problem here is that in Rev 9 onward satan is powerful and successful against his enemies even to the point of overcoming and killing the saints. In Rev 20 satan fails completely with no success against the saints. The other issue is that Rev 9 is the 5th trump/1st woe but Rev 20 is decidedly after the 6th trump/2nd woe and even after the 7th trump/3rd woe so how can the two openings be parallel events according to chronology?


15. Is satan released from the pit immediately before the 7th trump?

Amill teaches that satan is released in the 1st woe, Rev 9:2, and immediately after the 3rd woe/7th trump return of Christ. This not only ignores the 2nd woe completely but contradicts that the unsaved trample Jerusalem for 42 months within the 2nd woe. It also ignores that the locust have 5 months in the first woe to torment the unsaved. If Amill is correct about Rev 9:2 being the same releasing of satan in Rev 20,
there is a conflict of time and events.

16. Rev 11, the two prophets that are slain in Jersusalem represent "the Word of God" and "the Spirit of God".

It doesn't take much to recognize that "the Word of God" and "the Spirit of God" are not killed in Jerusalem by the beast nor do they have bodies that lie in the street for 3 1/2 days.

17. Rev 9-11 vs. Rev 20. Is satan in control of Jerusalem or not?

Amill claims satan being released in Rev 9 is the same exact event of releasing in Rev 20 yet after the Rev 9 releasing satan goes on to kill two of God's prophets in Jerusalem but in Rev 20 he is only able to surround the city before being destroyed, killing no one let alone leaving two dead bodies in the streets of New Jerusalem!

18. Does God destroy 1/10th of New Jerusalem?

Amill teaches the Jerusalem of Rev 11 is New Jerusalem because they match Rev 9-11 events to Rev 20 events and they believe the Jerusalem in Rev 20 is New Jerusalem.

19. Can satan deceive the nations while being bound and sealed in the pit?

Amill teaches, "satan has deceived the nations from Adam onwards. But his power was limited by his being imprisoned in the Abyss by Jesus Christ." Yet Rev 20:3 says he can "deceive the nations no more".

So, Amill teaches satan has limited power to deceive the nations while bound and sealed in the pit but scripture states he has no power to deceive the nations at all.

20. Christ reigns in heaven over his enemies.

The problem with that is that Mat 22:44 says he only remains in heaven at the right side of his Father until it's time to reign over his enemies. That is when he returns at the 7th trump and reigns his enemies with a rod of iron upon the Earth. A heavenly reign over his Earthly enemies is not scriptural and is obvious to the eye to not currently be happening.

21. Saints in heaven not reigning with Christ on thrones?

Those souls of dead saints in the 5th seal should be on thrones reigning in heaven if Amill is correct, but they aren't since they are under the altar, which means reigning with Christ on thrones is a future event.

22. When are the beast and false prophet cast into the lake of fire? Before the resurrection or after it?

If the resurrection of the dead occurs in Rev 19 when Christ returns then that happens before the false prophet and beast are cast into the lake of fire.

But if the unsaved dead are not resurrected at the same time the saved are, then that places their resurrection after the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. Amill teaches all are resurrected at the same time or close but this contradiction proves there are actually two separate resurrection times for those who are dead and they aren't as close as Amill suggests.

23. Jesus returns at the 5th trump or the 7th trump, or both?

Amill teaches Jesus is the angel descending from Heaven to the Earth to open the pit in the fifth trump. They also claim that is the same event of the 7th trump which they place in Rev 20. So they claim Rev 9:1 is the same exact event as Rev 20:1 yet the first is the 5th trump and the second is the 7th trump (according to Amill.) How can the same exact event be in two different trumps especially when the 6th trump between them is the tribulation period?

Does Jesus descend from heaven to open the pit in the 5th trump or the 7th trump Amill?
Does Jesus descend from heaven to open the pit before the tribulation/6th trump or after it has ended?
Is Rev 9:1 truly the same event as found in Rev 20:1?
Why are they in different trumps?


24. Does Jesus descend from heaven to open the pit before the tribulation/6th trump or after it has ended?

This is another contradiction related to the above.


25. One resurrection of the dead or two?

Amill teaches, "The righteous are immediately followed by the wicked at the general resurrection. Again, this could all literally happen in a second (or seconds)." That promotes two different resurrections separated by a short time period, yet Amill also denies there are two resurrections.


26. How much time inbetween the resurrection of the saved vs. unsaved?

Amill teaches, "The righteous are immediately followed by the wicked at the general resurrection. Again, this could all literally happen in a second (or seconds)."

Rev 20:5 states "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" which negates the possibility of only a second or seconds separating the two resurrections.


27. How many armies are in Rev 19-20?

Rev 19-20 speaks of three armies. One of that belongs to the beast which is defeated by the return of Christ and his army, then after satan is released from the pit he raises a new army which does not face an army of God but is destroyed by fire from God the Father in heaven. Amill teaches there are only two armies which contradicts what we are given.

28. The beast's Rev 19 army defeated by God the son and army, satan's Rev 20 army defeated by God the Father with no army.

The Battle of Armageddon (in the valley of Megiddo) is the same battle found in Rev 20:8-9? (Gog Magog)
Amill teaches these are the same battle yet they clearly are not:
In Rev 19 a battle involving two armies is fought at Armageddon (in the valley of Megiddo).
One army is led by the Rev 13:1 beast and the false prophet, and the other is led by Christ at his second coming. He and his army destroy the enemy army and the beast and FP are cast into the lake of fire. All this before the Rev 20's "a thousand years" even begins.
After the end of the "a thousand years", Rev 20:8-9 shows an army led by satan surrounding Jerusalem and facing no opposing army. Instead of Christ and his army defeating this army, God the Father rains fire from heaven and destroys them. This second battle happens just outside of Jerusalem and Jerusalem is 50 miles away from the valley of Megiddo.
Satan is then cast into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet already are proving they were cast into the lake of fire at an earlier time before satan was further proving the two battles are not the same battle repeated twice.
Clearly two different places and two different battles where an army of evil is destroyed.

29. Was satan bound and imprisoned at the cross or when Christ resurrected?

Not according to Rev 12. Amill teaches he was bound at the cross or when Christ resurrected yet we read in Rev 12 that after the ascension, satan is cast out of heaven with his angels and then we read, "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

There is no binding or imprisoning at all! He then proceeds to "persecute the woman which brought forth the man child" and after that he continues his rampage, "went to make war with the remnant of her seed".

Furthermore, Christ certainly didn't say it was going to happen at the cross. What he did say about when he would be gone is that the ruler of the world, satan, would be coming. That is the opposite of what happens in the Millennium.

Joh_14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the ruler of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.


30. The Millennial Kingdom/Kingdom of God established at the cross?

Amill believes the Millennium began at the cross but Christ said it was related to his second coming through a parable he spoke:

Luk 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.


They made the same mistaken assumption that Amill does.

Luk 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
Luk 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
Luk 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
Luk 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.


Clearly the Kingdom/Millennium does not begin until the return of Christ. This is exactly what is found in Rev 2, 19 and 20.


31. Did the reign with Christ and the saints becoming kings and priests occur at the cross?

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

"and shall reign" is in the future tense and this was written decades after the cross. Amill teaches this reign as priests and kings happened at the cross but that violates the future tense John uses proving the reign with Christ could not have started at the cross. It is a future event which validates the Premill understanding of this reign.


32. Is the beast of Rev 13 from the distant past and has already been defeated?

Amill teaches that the events of Rev 13 are from the past yet how is that possibly true when we see the same beast and false prophet from Rev 13 in Rev 19 which most Amill's believe to be the future second coming? Has the beast and false prophet been ruling the world since Ad 70? If so, how can they have so much power in a time when satan is supposedly bound and imprisoned since Ad 33?

Truth is the events of Rev 13 with the beast and false prophet are roughly 42 months prior to the events of the last half of Rev 19, the second coming. Rev 13 is not the past.

Amill has no answer as to why the Rev 13 beast is destroyed at the second coming. It proves the events of Rev 13 (and part of 11) occur just prior to the second coming which then brings in Daniel 7 and the 4th beast which is usually agreed upon in Premill to be the same Rev 13, 19 beast.



33. Is the thousand years/Millennium over and we are now in the little season where satan raises a final army?

There are a lot of problems with this theory.

When did the Millennium end exactly?
When did the little season begin?
Does Rev 20 suggest satan waits to raise his final army?
Why isn't there a camp of the saints outside of Jerusalem now?
Why is deception still a problem for the nations as it has been for the last 2,000 years?
Shouldn't there have been a drastic change between satan being bound and satan being unbound?
Why was Islam founded and became quickly very popular within the time of the Millennium if satan was bound from deceiving?

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Truth is satan is released and gathers together this final army. That hasn't happened and isn't happening so it is literally impossible that we are in the little season just as it is impossible that we could be in or were in the Millennium. None of the events that precede the Millennium have even happened.

Amill is desperate to explain why satan has so much power in the world today. Typically they claim his power is limited in the Millennium but not taken away completely. Now they seem to prefer to claim we are in the little season so they can say satan is unbound and has his powers to deceive back in full.

34. Who binds and imprisons satan in the pit?

Amill teaches that Christ binds and imprisons Satan in the pit but is that accurate?

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Rev 12 proves satan is upon the Earth and cannot return to heaven so his binding is here upon the Earth where the pit is said to be located. The pit is a spiritual place not a geographic place but is said to be in the vicinity of the Earth because to get to the pit an Angel must leave heaven and come to the Earth.

Christ then could not be the one to bind Satan because Christ would have to leave heaven to accomplish that which would have been a second coming. Since we know he only returns one final time since leaving we know it was indeed an actual angel which bound satan. Anyone that believes Christ bound Satan accidentally believes in a second and a third coming because that's the only way Christ could have bound satan.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Closed.