Forgivness & Confession

Archangel · Jan 25, 2005

SLStrohkirch said:
Having viewed a few of the responses after this original post I think there is a lot of error being taught in protestant churches regarding what sins are forgiven when are regenerated through Baptism. We are forgiven for past and present sins, but not future sins. We can't be forgiven for what he haven't done yet. Not only that but the Holy Spirit can enable us to resist temptation and flee from it. On the other hand if we rely only on our own will and power we have the ability to reject this gift of Grace bought for us with Jesus blood.

The verses in 1 John 1:8-9 speak the truth of our condition.

I disagree. Firstly we can be forgiven for what we haven't done yet.

"11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possessionto the praise of his glory."

-Ephesians 1:11-14

Paul tells us here that we have been predestined according to God's plan. God knew before the creation of the world who would accept him and who would not. Paul then says that we have been predestined according to this plan with "everything in conformity with the purpose of his will".

God has worked out everything, he knows the future and can alter it, make it or end it. Because of this, God knows what sins we have yet to commit and therefore can forgive the sins of those who have been predestined [ie Those who accept Jesus as their Saviour]

Since God knows all and has complete birdseye view of all of time since before time, then he can forgive that which has not yet occured in this earth's history. To say we cannot be forgiven of future sins is saying that God cannot forgive future sins, which means that God cannot be God as God is allpowerful and omnipotent.

Now that we know that forgivness of future sins is possible by God, the question is does he choose, or did he choose to forgive future sins upon the cross?

My answer is Yes! 1 John 1:7...when we walk in the light Jesus forgives us of ALL sins. A Christian is someone who has fellowship with Christ...if you have fellowship with Christ then his blood upon the cross forgives [or in fact forgave] all sins.

As for the Holy Spirit helping us, yeap he does. When we are in fellowship with Christ we will want to live our lives as perfect and sinless as we can...we will want to be Holy Priesthood Peter talks about, and so God's Spirit helps us do this...he desires to help us stop sinning, even though he knows all the sins we are to commit.

SPALATIN · Jan 25, 2005

Orthodoxyusa said:
The underlined portion of your quote should be enough to point out that the protestant churchs could not possibly by "The Church" of Christ...

Forgive me...

Ortho,

In as much as I know you believe this, I must say that I am somewhat insulted by that comment. Yes, there are errors that are being taught in Mainline Evangelical churches, but that doesn't mean that they are not part of the invisible church that you and I also belong. They believe that Christ died for them as we do. We can judge the doctrine, but we can't judge the people for that is not our place to do so.

SPALATIN · Jan 25, 2005

rugerfann said:
If christ didn't take all yous sins away ,you are doomed!Believe what you wish,but the fact is he took them ALL.Man's pride doesnt want Christ to take them all,becuase then he can do something in his salvation.

Rugerfann,

He did die for all sin, but not all sin is forgiven until it is confessed and the transgressor has repented. Which is why we can ask for forgiveness of the sins we commit on a daily basis and know that his Grace covers those sins as well.

Re-read 1 John 1:8-9 and it will spell it out for you.

rugerfann · Jan 25, 2005

PaladinValer said:
Dude, that is montanism. Montanus taught that you were saved and forgiven once, but you couldn't be forgiven again. Thus, any new sins would not be forgiven because you were baptized already. This is exactly what you've been saying.

? I'm saying that Christ forgave all past,present,future sins at the cross,except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Orthodoxy states that Jesus didn't die to excuse our sins. He died to forgive our sins when we've repented of them with his Grace and our efforts. We need God's help to work out our salvation and to work on ridding ourselves of our sinfulness. We will never be fully successful; but it is in our continued walk in the Christ that our sins become "easier to manage" (in other words, we commit to sinful habits less and less) and we are better able to avoid other sins. We cannot "just" rely on God, for we have free will to sin or not to sin. God works with us in our lives, purifying our weakened deeds into a soul-healthy exercise of our free will. God is not a puppetmaster; we have no strings attached.

You must rely on God.The bible is clear you can do nothing apart from christ.

The Bible states Christ came to take away the reason for Spiritual death,which is Sin.You seem to not understand Grace verse the Law.Othodoxy seems to have the Law in a new package.

If we sin, we are guilty of that sin. We've violated our baptism oaths and we are now in jeopardy of hell. But God is merciful; He knows that we are not perfect due to original sin. That is why He gave unto the world His only Son to be the Perfect Sacrifice for us. In our baptism, we are not only united in the Christ in life, but in death and in Resurrection as well. With baptism, we are washed of original sin and our souls begin the process of regeneration. God begins to help us, but we still must put in the effort by choosing not to sin. If we do, we've failed in our end of the baptismal covenant. God now expects us to atone from that sin. We now must repent of that sin. We must feel sorry we did sin in a sincere way. We must realize that we did indeed sin. We must now renounce that sin and promise not to do it again with an honest heart. When God sees this, He knows that we have indeed repented, and will help us again. His Grace helps us avoid those sins again, and we rejoice with God each time we are successful.

You will sin every day till the day you die!If Christ didnt forgive all you sinned you are doomed!

By saying "God already forgave us," it means only one of two things: God will never forgive new sins after baptisms and thus, even just one sin will condemn us to hell, regardless of how much faith or how many good deeds we do. Or, it means that Jesus died for nothing because people didn't change; they don't feel sorry for their continued fallen lives. They don't work on improving themselves. They don't decide to choose to follow God. They just continue on their ways, not God's Way. They just put everything on Christ and don't expect to do a single thing themselves; they can sin all they want to and it doesn't matter because they were "born again."

Nope,I'm saying he forgave ALL your sins not just some.

Well no. They were not "born again;" that bit of popular theology is only ~100 years old. That's montanism. You need to repent of your sins. Otherwise, you've squandered your baptismal vows and covenant with God. You've thrown it in the trash. And God will not turn a blind eye to you or anyone else. You've replaced Jesus' Sacrifice with your own, and that isn't good enough.

Nope,being born again of the spirit is tuaght by Jesus him self.

SALVATION IS

((((((((( LIFE))))))))))

not geting your sins forgiven.

Please get out of the Law and start living under Grace!

rugerfann · Jan 25, 2005

SLStrohkirch said:
Rugerfann,

He did die for all sin, but not all sin is forgiven until it is confessed and the transgressor has repented. Which is why we can ask for forgiveness of the sins we commit on a daily basis and know that his Grace covers those sins as well.

Re-read 1 John 1:8-9 and it will spell it out for you.

1John 1:8-9 is speaking to the agnostic in the church!Not the Chritians.

rugerfann · Jan 25, 2005

Archangel said:
I disagree. Firstly we can be forgiven for what we haven't done yet.

"11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possessionto the praise of his glory."

-Ephesians 1:11-14

Paul tells us here that we have been predestined according to God's plan. God knew before the creation of the world who would accept him and who would not. Paul then says that we have been predestined according to this plan with "everything in conformity with the purpose of his will".

God has worked out everything, he knows the future and can alter it, make it or end it. Because of this, God knows what sins we have yet to commit and therefore can forgive the sins of those who have been predestined [ie Those who accept Jesus as their Saviour]

Since God knows all and has complete birdseye view of all of time since before time, then he can forgive that which has not yet occured in this earth's history. To say we cannot be forgiven of future sins is saying that God cannot forgive future sins, which means that God cannot be God as God is allpowerful and omnipotent.

Now that we know that forgivness of future sins is possible by God, the question is does he choose, or did he choose to forgive future sins upon the cross?

My answer is Yes! 1 John 1:7...when we walk in the light Jesus forgives us of ALL sins. A Christian is someone who has fellowship with Christ...if you have fellowship with Christ then his blood upon the cross forgives [or in fact forgave] all sins.

As for the Holy Spirit helping us, yeap he does. When we are in fellowship with Christ we will want to live our lives as perfect and sinless as we can...we will want to be Holy Priesthood Peter talks about, and so God's Spirit helps us do this...he desires to help us stop sinning, even though he knows all the sins we are to commit.

Very well said!

FreeinChrist · Jan 25, 2005

Archangel said:
Thanks to everyone for their comments, please continue to discuss this, it is extremly helpful thank you.

My own personal opinion is that Jesus forgave all sins when he died on the cross, and that personal confession to God is actually more of a disciple than a necessity. We are told to confess our sins to one and other. By recodnising our sins and confessing them and being sorry we can grow up spiritually and become the Holy Priesthood we are supposed to be.

I do not think daily confession of sins brings forgivenss, but rather that repentance and the gift of salvation brings eternal forgivness. Confession shows us that we are guilty of sin, and does remind us to thank Jesus for this gift.

Very nicely said!

Qoheleth · Jan 25, 2005

The underlined portion of your quote should be enough to point out that the protestant churchs could not possibly by "The Church" of Christ...

Is this some way of expressing unity, in your way. Or are you simply just trying to remind us, non-Orthodox, that we are what...outside the church and heretical?

PaladinValer · Jan 25, 2005

rugerfann said:
? I'm saying that Christ forgave all past,present,future sins at the cross,except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

No, you haven't. To quote you:

"Only sin you need to repent of is our unbelief in Jesus.Asking Christ to forgive what he already has isn't scriptural!"

That's wrong.

"Becuase I already have repented for all my sins!Its not a contining process!"

That's wrong.

"Repent means to turn away and never do again.You can't repent more than once!If you do,you never have repented!"

That's wrong.

You must rely on God.The bible is clear you can do nothing apart from christ.

Baptism is a covenant. A covenant is an agreement between two sides; God and the people or individual. Have you fulfilled your end of the bargain if you continue to live in unrepentent sin? No.

The Bible states Christ came to take away the reason for Spiritual death,which is Sin.You seem to not understand Grace verse the Law.Othodoxy seems to have the Law in a new package.

He paid the price, but we must accept it. And that means repenting constantly of any sins we do after our baptisms. Otherwise, we've forsaken our baptisms and shoved it to God's nose. No thank you.

You will sin every day till the day you die!If Christ didnt forgive all you sinned you are doomed!

He will if I repent of them.

Nope,I'm saying he forgave ALL your sins not just some.

Only if I keep my end of my baptismal covenant.

Nope,being born again of the spirit is tuaght by Jesus him self.

False. The Greek says "born from above," meaning to forsake sinning. That means if you sin, you must repent of that sin. Those who do begin to master their sins with God's help. Those who don't are spiritually dead.

SALVATION IS

((((((((( LIFE))))))))))

not geting your sins forgiven.

Not this life.

Please get out of the Law and start living under Grace!

Law? What law? God's covenant with me when I was baptized? If that is "Law" to you, then sobeit. Forsake your baptism all you want; I shant mine.

Qoheleth · Jan 25, 2005

rugerfann said:
not geting your sins forgiven.

So, you can walk into Paradise with unforgiven sins???

Isnt that what Christ did on the cross, forgive us our sins? Thereby we are Justified by the merits of Christs work before the Father by obtaining for us the foregiveness of sins?

Can sin exist in Heaven?

Have you ever been angry in your life? Will you ever be angry again?

If your love for Christ and what He has done for you by His suffering is so intense, humbling, and ever before you, dont you ever want to fall on your knees and say Im sorry or at least feel bad about the sins especially you commit when you remember His suffering to gain you this forgiveness??

FreeinChrist · Jan 25, 2005

Archangel said:
As for the Holy Spirit helping us, yeap he does. When we are in fellowship with Christ we will want to live our lives as perfect and sinless as we can...we will want to be Holy Priesthood Peter talks about, and so God's Spirit helps us do this...he desires to help us stop sinning, even though he knows all the sins we are to commit.

Rom 8:26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for {us} with groanings too deep for words;

Rom 8:27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to {the will of} God.

Rom 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to {His} purpose.

Archangel · Jan 25, 2005

Baptisim is also a command given by our Lord Jesus as a sign that we are living in fellowship with him, it is a symbol of our trust and faith in Jesus. It doesn't take a baptisim to get us saved...baptisim does not bring salvation...rather salvation leads to baptisim.

Archangel · Jan 25, 2005

FreeinChrist said:
Rom 8:26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for {us} with groanings too deep for words;

Rom 8:27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to {the will of} God.

Rom 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to {His} purpose.

Thank You for the Bible references!

One more thing I would like to add...

Jesus forgiving all sins past present and future is not a free ticket to sin all we want. We are fellowship with Jesus and live for him, this is our spiritual response to God's grace the bible says. Unlike the parable of the prodical son, we must live for our Father. The Holy Spirit helps us do this, just as those verse from Romans say...he is our helper...like Jesus promised!

Qoheleth · Jan 25, 2005

Archangel said:
It doesn't take a baptisim to get us saved...baptisim does not bring salvation

I have never heard this before. Would you please show me the scripture verses that say specifically: "...this Baptism now does not save you..." And "...Baptism is not for the remision of sins..."

I cant find those verses, will you help me?

SumTinWong · Jan 25, 2005

I wonder if Mary or Joseph were ever Baptized?

Qoheleth · Jan 25, 2005

Archangel said:
The Holy Spirit helps us do this, just as those verse from Romans say...he is our helper...like Jesus promised!

And would you not want all the means available to us, that have been given by God to help us out??

If we do not have to repent of our sins, ever, do we even have to pray to our Father and say thank you now and again. I mean, we are already saved, our sins are forgiven, its a done deal.

Q

Qoheleth · Jan 25, 2005

unclebud said:
I wonder if Mary or Joseph were ever Baptized?

OK, Ill play. How do we know that they were not baptised?

PaladinValer · Jan 25, 2005

St. Mary and St. Joseph were still in the Old Covenant. Problem solved.

Archangel · Jan 25, 2005

Qoheleth said:
I have never heard this before. Would you please show me the scripture verses that say specifically: "...this Baptism now does not save you..." And "...Baptism is not for the remision of sins..."

I cant find those verses, will you help me?

Baptisim itself does not confer salvation...it does not effect what it symbolises. The theif on the cross came to faith in Jesus and was promised to be with Christ in Paradise even though he had no opportunity to be baptised. The act of baptisim saves no one. Baptisim is a symbol of a real spiritual experience that has already taken place in the believer's life.
We get baptised because Jesus asked us to [Matthew 28:19,20]
It symbolises a funeral, a symbolic one. It symbolises what happens when a person comes to Jesus.

In the Book of Acts the people getting baptised were people who had first believed in Jesus...then got baptised as a response to that. It is the belief, the conversion that saves us, not our symbolic baptisim.

Baptisim by immersion in water corresponds well with the "spiritual baptisim" that happens to every believer at the time of conversion [Romans 6:3-4], it is a symbol that a person has been raised to new life after death and burial.

The bible tells us that it is not by works that we are saved, but by grace...Baptsim shall not get you saved. Rather, we do it because Jesus asked us to...just like he asks us to live for him, and asks us to evangelise for him, and asks us to encourage and love one another and be a holy priesthood, and pray and spend time with him, and admonish and heal and take communion, and use our gifts and be part of a body. Christ commands us to do many things for him, and by doing them we are being obedient to him, and through obedience in Jesus he can work though us even more, and we should do this as our response to his grace...his gift of salvation.

Hope that helps!

(PS Would you please show me the scripture verses that say specifically: "...this Baptism now does save you..." And "...Baptism is for the remision of sins...") lol

Qoheleth · Jan 25, 2005

St. Mary and St. Joseph were still in the Old Covenant. Problem solved.

Indeed, I was just attempting to make a point by how the question was posed

Q

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